Talk:List of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable

Original research

This article is on the verge of being original research, as the term "considered" in the title implies some level of subjectivity. Where are the sources that consider these records unbreakable? The sole sources given in the article is about.com, which is not really a reliable source for this kind of info, and certainly is insufficient by itself. I think this article needs more sources that establish that these records are considered unbreakable. Brad 18:47, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I found a photo gallery from Sports Illustrated that details several of the records listed in this article and have used it to reinforce the "unbreakable" claim made. I think this other photo gallery from LIFE might help [1], along with this NBC article [2] and this article from MLB.com about Ripken's consecutive game record [3]. Bloom6132 (talk) 16:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I've finished finding and adding reliable sources (i.e. Sports Illustrated and LIFE) for almost all the records to reinforce the "unbreakable" claim. Bloom6132 (talk) 15:17, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Next steps

If anyone ever decides to help expand this article, there are a good 5-10 more records that can be added to the list. The ultimate goal would be to have a brief description for each record as to why it is considered unbreakable with the appropriate citations and a few pictures. I may get around to it eventually, but hopefully someone else can get a head start. RoadView (talk) 04:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Done with the citations and pics. From the sources I've gathered (from SI and LIFE), this article could feature up to 13 more records that could be considered unbreakable (namely, Chesbro's 48 complete games in 1904; Henderson's 130 stolen bases in 1982; Bonds' 232 walks in 2004; Ted Williams' career .482 OBP; Babe Ruth's career .690 SLG; Connie Mack's games won, lost and managed; Ichiro's 10 consecutive 200-hit seasons; Bonds' 73 HR in 2002; the Yankees 5 consecutive WS championships; Hornsby's .424 BA in 1924; Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968; Hank Aaron's 17 consecutive 150-hit seasons and Eric Gagné's 84 consecutive save opportunities converted). I do believe Aaron's 17 consecutive 150-hit season should not be included (now that Jeter is just one season from tying it). Furthermore, Gagné's 84 straight saves and Bonds' single-season HR record should be excluded from the article, given their inclusion on the Mitchell Report and their links to PEDs, thus making their records dubious. Bloom6132 (talk) 19:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts with the citations, photos and reference cleanup. As far as the additions go I agree that most of those could indeed be added to this list. Personally I'm not a big fan of the Gagne consecutive saves record or the Rivera career saves record being added. Although impressive, the saves stat and subsequent records have been around much less time than others and those records still seem to be emerging. 2 people have over 600 saves so I think it will almost for sure be done again in the next 10-20 years, so I can hardly call such a recent accomplishment an "unbreakable record". Chesbro's CGs, Hornsby's BA, and Gibsons ERA records are also not the all-time records. Prior to 1900, the actual records are lower so it would only be fair to put in the all time record with a mention of what the post 1900 and post dead ball era records are. RoadView (talk) 21:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Anytime. I'm glad to help. I also have second thoughts about the saves records. They seem to be the most volatile of all records, changing hands too frequently these past few seasons (Hoffman 2006, F. Rodriguez 2008, Rivera 2011) to be considered "unbreakable." Not to mention that Gagné's consecutive SVO converted record could fall to Valverde or Axford next season (provided they continue their streaks). I would leave out live ball era records for now, for two reasons. Firstly, we should have a general consensus on how to sort out and distinguish the records (perhaps between dead ball, post dead ball and live ball). This is because I already see a potential conflict between the records (the WP article on MLB records says Will White has the all-time record for single-season CG, while Bob Feller holds the live-ball era CG record; yet SI.com lists Chesbro as having the "modern era record."). Furthermore, I haven't been able to come across any sources discussing how Will White's 75 CG (1879), Hugh Duffy's .440 BA (1894) and Tim Keefe's 0.86 ERA (1880) are truly unbreakable. If anyone does, please add it into the article.—Bloom6132 (talk) 17:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

My initial skepticism with this article was that I considered most of the arguments in sources flawed, merely saying "Nobody is currently close" or someone would have to "play X years getting Y somethings each year", etc. However, I've since stepped back that the article is "records considered unbreakable", not that a record will never be broken (a subtle difference). To filter out widely held opinion on what is considered unbreakable is bordering on a sort of original research to exclude info. What can be done is to leave the record if it is a widely held opinion (see my earlier 23:47, 30 November comment below about multiple sources), attribute holders of the opinion, and add other facts about players that are close to the record, volatility of the record, or other opinions that counter the claim.—Bagumba (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

We could be more discriminate and require each entry to have two (or more) sources that claim they are unbreakable. As for PEDs, as long as the records are not stricken from the books, it'd be more worthwhile and NPOV to add sources that discuss the impact of the PEDs on the record. Afterall, one could argue that with more testing, they really are unbreakable now.—Bagumba (talk) 23:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Requiring two sources to back up the "unbreakable" claim appears to be a reasonable benchmark. Requiring more than two would be stretching a bit. I also agree with you regarding keeping a neutral POV regarding PEDs. We could probably objectively state the record and state PED use. That way, we can let the reader decide or not whether or not the record is valid or not. However, I'm still going to keep Gagné's record out. Not because he took PEDs, but (as previously mentioned above) because these save records are volatile, have been set fairly recently and could potentially change hands as early as next season (e.g. Valverde and Axford, provided they keep up their streaks).—Bloom6132 (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I thought the saves used to be in there, but guess not. I personally dont think they are unbreakable, but just saying we need to be clear on what the entry criteria for this article is. I think the list could be more discriminate if we required entries that have sources that provide deeper analysis beyond its a huge number or nobody has broken it in X years. For example, I think the MLB DVD on Ryans strikeouts mentioned five man rotations and pitch counts affecting inning pitched and thus strikeouts.—Bagumba (talk) 19:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

More background on why they are unbreakable

I would appreciate some additional information in particular entries about what particular changes have taken place that made the record once possible and now highly unlikely. For example, I would assume many of Cy Young's pitching are unassailable due to changes in pitching rotation conventions, use of relievers, etc. 207.58.192.150 (talk) 18:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Some of them are unbreakable in the live ball area, but for instance why is Ichiro's hits or Nolan's pitching records? just means another great player needs to have the longevity to beat it rather than impartially impossible rather than major changes in the ways baseball is played (like pitchers only make 35 starts a season now if they are lucky) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.158.248 (talk) 15:37, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Project discussion

The appropriateness of this page is being discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:21, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks BB ... I just arrived here now, a bit tardily, to leave the same message. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:49, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

No Hitters

The 2 sections about no-hitters (career and consecutive) have different numbers of no-hitters in the decade between 2000 and 2010. How many were there, and what is the source?

63.170.80.2 (talk) 19:36, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Wins in a season by a pitcher

Added wins in a season by a pitcher. The fact teams now use a 5 man rotation, 59 wins is unattainable. 24.196.82.6 (talk) 00:19, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Sources from LIFE

All the sources in this article from LIFE now redirect to the main homepage (i.e. they can no longer be accessed). Does anyone know where we could retrieve these sources (preferably from an archive like the Wayback Machine)? —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:09, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Typically you could follow instructions at WP:DEADLINK. I tried on http://archive.org and http://webcitation.org but could not find them. Also a Google search on the article title leads only back to the orig URL. I'm usually in the habit these days of archiving sources I use on webcitation.org before they break—Bagumba (talk) 15:47, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I found the archived version. I fixed the ref to "17. Rickey Henderson's 1,406 career steals", which is the first in the slideshow. Click the "next" links to get the remaining archive urls.—Bagumba (talk) 06:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help Bagumba in finding the archived version! Much appreciated. —Bloom6132 (talk) 09:40, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Propose to add: Games played before the age of 20

This record is currently held by Robin Yount, who played 243 games in the majors as an 18- and a 19-year old (he turned 20 in his second season). He broke Mel Ott's record of 241 games in the majors as a teen. For someone to break this record today, they would have to jump directly to the majors from high school (or make it to the majors from Latin America by age 18), and considering that major-league draft picks now sign minor-league contracts, why should this not be on the list?

I will not add this without discussion. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 02:03, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

• I appreciate the discussion instead of just adding it. There are 2 aspects I think about when adding new records. First, does it further enrich and fit in with the article as a whole? My inclination is a borderline no. Not that every entry has to be a stat for a season or career, but if you take away that parameter and add a potentially arbitrary cutoff point, then it makes me think about other similar age records. (i.e. Most game played after age 45, Most hits before age 25) I think better records could be Joe Nuxhall being the youngest to appear in a game or Maury Wills playing 165 games in a season.

The second aspect I consider is the sourcing. If there are multiple reliable sources that discuss it as being unbreakable, then I couldn't really make a great case to not include it. I couldn't find any after a brief search, but they might be there. So while I do think Yount's record is impressive any quite possibly might not be matched, in my opinion, it's a little less substantial and discriminate than the others, however, it might all come down to the sourcing. It's close, but I would lean toward no for now. I hope others will weigh in. RoadView (talk) 14:36, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Most All-Star Game Appearences

This should be Stan Musial who had 24, not Hank Aaron if he had only 21 as the site currently reads — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.89.19 (talk) 05:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

From 1959 to 1962, MLB had two All-Star games per season, and Aaron was selected to every one of them. 147.226.211.117 (talk) 20:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Grand Slams One Inning Off One Pitcher

This record is imo by far the hardest record in all of sports to break. Just by the volume of other records that would be broken in order for someone to get 3 grand slams one inning off of one pitcher. 3 hrs one inning and off one pitcher. Most rbis one inning and off one pitcher. Most rbis game off one pitcher. Tied most rbis game. Here are the team records that would fall. Most runs one inning team and off one pitcher. Most batters to come to plate one inning and off one pitcher.

Radbourn

There should probably be something included (at least a footnote) regarding the discrepancies. While the figure of 62 wins is widely discredited, there seems to be some legitimate debate between 59 and 60. Joefromrandb (talk) 13:16, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Encyclopedic?

Isn't this article by its very nature journalistic and not encyclopedic, and therefore off-topic in an encyclopedia? Renard Migrant (talk) 10:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Freak occurrences of greatness

Which really means disparities in skills of players in the early days of baseball. None of these record holders would probably be better than today's players. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 23:06, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Attendance Record

Should we add the Orioles unbreakable attendance record from today? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:B:C081:DDC6:A10A:D6DA:BF25:B526 (talk) 02:36, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

I believe my illustrious comrade named "Preceding unsigned Comment" is referring to the Orioles dubious distinction of having a game with 0 paid attendence. It was not because the Orioles are horrible or even under-appreciated. The game was held immediately after the riots in April 2015, and it was a public safety decision, at least according to the article. -- Srwalden (talk) 10:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

And the record's been met since. Although, since you can't have less than zero... 147.226.211.117 (talk) 20:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Rogers Hornsby

I think another record worth adding is Rogers Hornsby's single-season batting average record of .424. The chances of this being broken are incredibly small; the last player to hit over .400 in a single season was Ted Williams over 70 years ago, and in recent years, the only player to get close to .400 was Tony Gwynn, when he hit .394 in 1994.

Most career hits – 4,256

While it might be 'considered' by some to be unbreakable, the fact that Ichiro would have surpassed this by now had he played his whole career in MLB suggests it isn't literally unbreakable. While Ichiro's career batting average is higher in Japan than it is here, when he played there the season was only 130 game season, so he's actually getting more hits per season in the US than he ever did in Japan. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

And the level of competition in MLB is greater than NPB. This whole page is a WP:SYNTH/WP:OR violation anyway. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

I think is unbreakable as the modern game goes. No player who spent most of his career in the 21st century has gotten within less than 700 hits from the record, and no active player is within the all time top 10 in hits. And with the ever increasing strikeout rate as well as a decreasing batting average, the record will soon become an anachronism.

For those interested

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18977810/barry-bonds-pac-man-greatest-baseball-fun-fact-all Kinston eagle (talk) 23:46, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Consecutive complete game shutouts

I think Don Drysdale's record of 6 consecutive complete game shutouts will not be surpassed in this era with setup men and closers. Few pitchers even get 6 complete games in a season now. The last season in which a single major league pitcher had 7 or more complete games was 2011. The last season in which a major league pitcher had 7 or more shutouts was 1985. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there are formal entry criteria for what gets listed here. At a minimum, I'd assume we need multiple reliable sources calling a record unbreakable?—Bagumba (talk) 04:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

His shutout streak is often cast as a scoreless innings streak that has been surpassed, making it hard to source. The best I can do is this and this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:36, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

That B/R author doesn't seem reliable, nor does the other blog. I'd say there isn't enough coverage to warrant listing it here.—Bagumba (talk) 08:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Lowest paid attendance - 6

Wouldn't unattended games due to CoViD-19 restrictions break that record to permanently set it to zero? 2601:43:101:9360:5DEA:66C7:C239:F206 (talk) 12:31, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Most home runs in a game

According to this section, it sounds like it is very likely to be broken at some point, so I'm not sure why it is considered "unbreakable". Is there a source calling this record "unbreakable"? If not, it should probably be removed. Kaldari (talk) 15:22, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I think exactly the same. Also add that the record though not broken, has been equalled 17 times, so it's definitely breakable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juan diego sanchez (talk • contribs) 02:30, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Should we add game-winning RBI?

The Game-winning RBI was an official statistic for most of the 1980s, but was discontinued after the 1988 season. While it was in effect, there were various records set. Barring another change in the rules, these records are unbreakable by definition. Is there any reason not to import to this article the records set forth in our GWRBI article? JamesMLane t c 18:55, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

"dramatically reduced penalty for strikeouts"

Hi, everyone. I am an infrequent poster and hope I don't make a botch of this. Anyway, I dispute the verbiage, "dramatically reduced penalty for strikeouts." The penalty for strikeouts is exactly the same as it's always been... you're out. Rather, high strikeout totals are no longer so much considered the sign of a terrible batter. I think a better expression of the intended sentiment would be "a dramatically reduced stigma for striking out" or something like that. Thanks for listening. The tamale (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

The thing is, now strikeouts are not as negatively seen as they used to be. Once upon a time, striking out 162 times (an average of once a game) was seen as absolutely embarrasing. Now, is close to the MLB average strikeout rate. And we've seen several 300-strikeout performances by several pitchers in recent years (as per the article itself), so definitely, the penalty for strikeouts is reduced.

Career Saves Record

I'm a little skeptical of much of this article (since it's ultimately subjective, and largely borders on original research), but in particular the Career Saves Record section seems like a stretch inclusion. The two most recent holders of the record were active within the past 11 years (Hoffman retired in 2010, and Rivera in 2013), and - unlike with the Career Wins record - there's no clear change in the way the game is played that would preclude someone from ultimately surpassing them. Rivera had 243 saves through his age-32 season, and Kimbrel had 348 through his (and actually has 354 right now, still age 32). Can we really say for certain that Kimbrel, or some future closer, can't touch Rivera's record (which Rivera himself only set in 2010)? As a Yankees fan who grew up watching Rivera, I hope not - but I don't think it's remotely guaranteed!

The more I think about it, the more I think we should set a rule: in order to qualify for this list, the record needs to have been held for more than 20 years (or some other appropriate length of time), or there needs to have been a significant change in the rules of the game that would preclude someone's ability to challenge for the record. ABarnes94 (talk) 02:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The problem with these lists based on a subjective opinion is how many people need to call it "unbreakable" for it to be included? For saves, the only reference currently cited that even mentions this is a title with "Yankees' Mariano Rivera May Have Set Unbreakable Baseball Saves Record" (it's subscription only, I can't read rest). Hardly definitive. There's an SI piece I found that also says seemingly unbreakable. I'd say remove it.—Bagumba (talk) 03:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The career saves record is definitely breakable, as long as the closer stays healthy into his late 30s and early 40s ans it's on a team that gives him enough save opportunities. I think it shouldn't be considered unbreakable until some closer puts it in the vicinity of 900 saves (which would take an average of 45+ per season during 20 seasons to be broken). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juan diego sanchez (talk • contribs) 02:25, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Greatest Centerfielder Ever

"Speaker is regarded as the greatest fielding centerfielder ever..." BY WHOM? The assessment is uncited. The tamale (talk) 16:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

More unbreakable records

Do you think other unbreakable records should be added? Like the single season intentional walk record, single season walk record, single season obp record, and career walks record (all belonging to Barry Bonds), along with some other records I also consider to be unbreakable, such as the leadoff HR record (81 leadoff HRs) and the most seasons hitting at least 1 HR (25 seasons), both belonging to Rickey Henderson. Or maybe if universal DH is put in place from next season onwards, add all pitcher hitting related records. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juan diego sanchez (talk • contribs) 02:16, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Oldest player to hit their first career home run

I think now that the universal DH is in place, it will always be with Bartolo Colon and his home run. I don't see how this record could be broken in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tallestmanintown (talk • contribs) 23:20, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Pittsburgh Pirates losing seasons record?

The Pirates had 20 consecutive losing seasons, which is the record for all of professional sports. However, it's a franchise record. ...And I guess it's technically possible to break. Never mind. 147.226.211.117 (talk) 20:43, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Orel Hershiser's scoreless innings streak

I think Orel Hershiser's scoreless innings streak, should be included.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Major League Baseball which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Major League Baseball which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Integration of Negro League statistics

Word just came down that Negro League statistics will be added to the official MLB records as of 29 May 2024. As far as single season records, Josh Gibson's batting average of .466 in 1943 is the new unbreakable record, as well as considered the last .400 season. It is important to note that they are not considering the barnstorming games. Breaking this record would require someone with an average of 550 at bats in a season to have 257 hits. Bluorangefyre (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's best to wait for consensus to be reached over at WP:BASEBALL before adding in those statistics. It's worth noting that due to the unique nature of the Negro Leagues, a lot of the 'new' career and single-season batting records would feature considerably less plate appearances than usual. Baseref still lists Cobb as the career batting average leader for that reason, so let's just wait for that to be sorted out first. TheCelebrinator (talk) 22:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Mention 'former' 'unbreakable' records maybe?

I think it might be good for the article to mention certain records that were considered unbreakable but were broken. However, I still think it would have to be a record with a lot of sources calling it unbreakable--only the stuff that a lot of people really thought was unbreakable. I imagine there'd only be one or two. 2601:408:C402:9E23:35FD:3A13:FE56:3A10 (talk) 06:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)