Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. If someone wants to propose a rename, be my guest. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:11, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable[edit]

List of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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This page was discussed here, but nothing came of it. This page is entirely based on subjective conjecture. Who is to say which record is "unbreakable" and which is not? Who "considers" which record unbreakable? – Muboshgu (talk) 23:45, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. —– Muboshgu (talk) 23:48, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Substantial revisions needed - I'm not ready to say dump the article. But there are some issues with it. For one thing, there is no reason someone couldn't throw 2 consecutive no-hitters. It was done once, it was almost done a second time, so it could happen again. Also, regarding Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak, SABR figger filberts think it's literally the most unbreakable, because it's so statistically anomolous with the other hitting streak records. But still, it could be broken if someone set out deliberately to do so. They used to call Gehrig's 2,130 unbreakable, and Ripken destroyed it, so there's no reason someone else couldn't do likewise. The other items on the list are mostly because of fundamental changes in the nature of the game... and who's to say the game won't change again someday? I can knock most of the items down if you'd like. :) P.S. Ty Cobb's official career batting average is .367. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I googled [sabr records unbreakable], and this interesting item[1] came up. It's worth reading, and it's clear that this current article is nowhere close. There are many, many more records considered unbreakable, so the list herein is nothing more than a sample of some of the most obvious ones. The first 8-plus pages of that link list the various changes in game conditions over the years. The actual list starts about the bottom of page 9 and continues through page 20. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • One amusing example: 4 - Most saves in one World Series (John Wetteland 1996). Unless the World Series is changed to more games than the current best-4-of-7 (which has been that way since 1922), it is literally impossible for that record to be broken. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:48, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Often, during Yankee games, if one fielder makes all three put outs in the inning, Michael Kay mentions that he tied a major league record. Perhaps that should be added as an unbreakable record, because nobody ever seems to get a fourth put out. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • True, but also note that it is easily possible for a pitcher to be credited for 4 (or more) strikeouts in one inning. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • And since that is concretely defined, we have a page for it. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would at least group the records by "rationale".
      • Some records are impossible to approach, let alone break, due to the nature of the game. Example: 749 career complete games by Cy Young, in 22 seasons. That's an average of 34 per season. That, of course, accounts for his won-lost record in the 500s and the 300s respectively. Halladay led all big leaguers last year... with 9. I doubt he can pitch for 83 years and catch up to Young.
      • Some records are literally impossible to break, such as Wetteland's 4 saves in the 4 Yankees wins in the 1996 Series.
      • Some records are theoretically reachable but statistically unlikely. Joe D's hitting streak usually floats to the top of that list.
    • ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:15, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The link to "this article's entry" on the article page is a red link. Kinston eagle (talk) 00:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - This brings to mind List of movies considered the worst ever. If you can find a reliable source that a record is unbreakable, then it belongs in the article. If it's just some fan's ideas, whether based on sabermetrics or tea leaves, it should go. If there are no reliable sources in support of any of the material, then delete the article. Matchups 01:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • "List of movies considered the worst" is also opinion-driven, but it's a preponderance of opinions by professional critics. Also, the finished product is there to see and evaluate. There's no crystal ball involved. With any kind of predictions, it's always at best a "calculated guess". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep - Allow me to copy and past what I have stated on the other page: As the original creator of the aforementioned page, I thought I might take a second to weigh in on this. Granted the sources are not its strong suit, and background information is certainly lacking. However my intentions were to set the framework for a potentially substantial article. I see many pages related to sports on Wikipedia and it seemed like there there was room for a page about baseball records that have may stand the test of time. I always found the rich history of the game to be fascinating and over the years have heard/read about various records that we will "never" see broken. If someone put in the time to do some serious upgrades, this would be a very involved and interesting article. I highly recommend keeping the page and encourage its expansion. If I was talented enough and had the time I would give it a shot, until then I hope others will carry the torch.
I am not opposed to a reimagining of the article, but I am strongly opposed to flat out deleting it without some sort of an outlet to view these types of records on Wikipedia. We all know of many questionable articles, including others that are sports related, that are definitely on the subjective side. This may be one of them as well, however any baseball fan will certainly know about the history of the game and how these records are acknowledged by fans, writers, and even players. I provided basic references in hopes that someone else with more Wikipedia experience would be able to more easily source these.
I find it fascinating that this is up for deletion. Yes it needs work/expansion/retooling, but in no way is this something that should be banished from Wikipedia. If anything, each of these records should be expanded enough to get their own page. These are great records with a rich history that many people know about, let's not wipe this from our memories just because it's sourced like an amateur and has a subjective element to it. - RoadView (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for weighing in here. Did you get a chance to read the SABR-related link that I posted? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did look over the article and it becomes evident that their are plenty of trivial records out there. I suppose what separates those trivial records from these is that the records on here are ones that are widely known and more substantial than say "least putouts in 1 inning". Again, unless someone is going to either replace this article with a new and improved page, or create an in depth article for each record, then I say keep this until an editor decides to do so. As for renaming to something like "List of MLB records that have stood for 50 years", that's not bad but that does not leave room for a record such as Fernando Tatis' 2 grand slams in 1 inning which I'm sure most people with agree that that is not going to be broken and deserves a mention at some capacity. Either way I just hope that someone will bring some form of an encyclopedic class article on this topic to fruition. - RoadView (talk) 19:15, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open to rescinding my nomination of this article, but not in its present form. It would need a complete rehaul complete with reliable sourcing. It's the subjective nature of that potential sourcing that makes me think it may not be possible to make this properly encyclopedic, but I'm open to being proven wrong. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:12, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. In reality, there are only records that are highly unlikely to be broken given today's conditions. However, conditions have changed throughout Major League Baseball history, and so virtually all records could be broken. Both Bill James and Baseball Prospectus, as I recall, have written about this in the past year. I don't believe there is a sufficiently well-founded central thesis for the concept of records that are considered unbreakable; each record requires its own explanation of the state of the game in the context of the achievement, why the record is difficult to break today, and what conditions would have to return (or be introduced) in order for the record to no longer be considered unbreakable. As such, I think the list is in danger of being a list of non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations. I suggest that the articles for each achievement in question be expanded if necessary to include reliably-sourced discussion of how the changing conditions of MLB over the years have affected the ability to set new highs/lows for the achievement. isaacl (talk) 14:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not so keen on zapping the article altogether, but the way it is right now seems highly subjective and random. But there may be a way around it: How about listing records that have stood for X number of years? Joe D's record, for example, was set 70 years ago this summer. Cobb's career batting record was set in 1928, i.e. his last year of play. There's plenty of room for explanations about changing conditions. And there could be a section on records that are impossible to break, such as 3 outs by one fielder in one inning, and 0 putouts in one game (although they're a tad trivial). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, and the article title should be changed to "MLB records established at least 50 years" or whatever. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:19, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bugs's idea is not a bad idea. Why not just make this a chronological list of the longest-held baseball records, and retitle it. As with others, I think this has potential, and with a slight rename, we can both WP:PRESERVE the history and make this into a workable list. I propose a rename to List of longest held Major League Baseball records. --Jayron32 17:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • A list or a table or something, with the year the record was established. An example could be Pete Rose's career hits total, coupled with his retirement year of 1986 which is when the record was established. The records can be had from Retrosheet or various other sources such as the Elias annual. Retrosheet[2] is probably a good place to start, and maybe cross-verified so we're not using just one source. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename or Merge as per above. - SudoGhost (talk) 02:53, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Merge with List of Major League Baseball record holders. Without better sources it's a relative topic; obviously with how the game has changed over the years it is unlikely that many of these will ever be broken. It's an interesting list for other sites but, it's WP's job to report the stats, not comment on them. Somebody could clean up the record holder's list (it needs it anyway) and add a section for the longest held records; that would be adequate to me. blackngold29 16:43, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The MLB.com site has a list of longest-standing records, both still-standing and historically long-standing:[3] It is by no means all-inclusive, but it's something, anyway. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:47, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Surpisingly, Keep. I was expecting to say 'Delete' here, but on closer examination it does seem like this is a concept that has been discussed in reliable sources; on that basis, I think this article is acceptable a sublist of List of Major League Baseball record holders, and not original research or speculation. The important thing, though, is that this should be a list of MLB records that have been considered unbreakable by reliable sources; not simply declared 'unbreakable' by Wikipedia editors. Any entry on this list should have sources, and preferably more than one. I think it would also be encyclopaedic (and interesting) to include mention of records which were formerly considered 'unbreakable', but have since in fact been broken, if any good examples come to mind (I'm not a baseball fan myself, so wouldn't know). Robofish (talk) 00:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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