Talk:List of George Floyd protests in the United States/Archive 1

Page Name

Don't know about the name. A general "2020 Civil Unrest" or something that is more neutral might be better. Thoughts? Anon0098 (talk) 05:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

This title isn't at all violating WP:NPOV. Did you mean to say "something more general"? ɱ (talk) 06:16, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Map

The article says honolulu has a protest with over 100 people but hawaii isnt even shown in the graphic? 2601:8A:500:57A1:32C2:E7AC:BF44:88A2 (talk) 09:49, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

we're working on the map! It will likely change soon. I know Hawaii is missing in this one :( -- phoebe / (talk to me) 19:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thousands are marching in London, UK, Berlin, Toronto and elsewhere. Instead of one larger map, it's probably better to have more than one. Kire1975 (talk) 22:28, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

A peaceful protest also occurred in San Luis Obispo, in the central coast of California on May 31st. ANTHONATOR35 (talk) 09:39, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

The Map

The map is going to have to be zoomed up to possibly over 1000 to be able to get all the cities that had at least 100 protesters by the first saturday after George Floyd's death to be readable. I think that's a reasonable data point, but it's too unwieldy for such a small map. It will probably need it's own section, but whether to place it in the first Header spot or the last is the question. Anybody else got any bright ideas? Kire1975 (talk) 12:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Well let's switch to using {{maplink}}. Better tool anyway. ɱ (talk) 16:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

see discussion at Talk:George_Floyd_protests#Map_of_protests_-_size_cutoff? where I'm proposing a multiday or >1000 participants cutoff. Unfortunately getting sources to confirm size of protests is tough in many cases. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 19:52, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Which is why we could always have a map of all cited demonstrations? Maplink does need ability to combine points perhaps... ɱ (talk) 20:16, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Not sure I understand what you're proposing but am happy to go for it .... can maplink make a map with multiple views? I'm working on compiling data about size/day down below in case we want that as a criteria -- phoebe / (talk to me) 20:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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Southern California deleted?

Someone deleted So.Cal. by diff by user User:Paintspot. Please put back.SWP13 (talk) 22:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

>>seems ok now.SWP13 (talk) 22:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Oops, total accident – Did not mean for that to happen at all! Paintspot Infez (talk) 22:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

South Dakota

I wanted to add Sioux Falls, South Dakota's protest being added here as well, but I'm new and honestly quite scared of messing something up.

I figured I would just post here and try to be as helpful as possible :)

Relevant articles:

• https://twitter.com/KELOLaurenS/status/1267216030528667650?s=20
• https://www.keloland.com/news/local-news/protestors-set-to-gather-in-downtown-sioux-falls-sunday-evening/

Hope this helps? Let me know if I can do anything else to help! Koymas (talk) 22:38, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kyomas: thank you! I'll add it. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 00:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Duplication and see also

Please note: this was a split from George Floyd protests, and is currently a duplicate. The talk at Talk:George Floyd protests is relevant here. I may redirect this article until we get this sorted out so we don't get too out of sync -- phoebe / (talk to me) 15:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Phoebe: I agree. Duplication is silly. I added content to George Floyd protests, just to see that this is a virtual duplicate. What's the point? Either summarize this at the general article pronto, or redirect this back. Who do we WP:TROUT for this state?—Bagumba (talk) 17:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Bagumba: see Talk:George_Floyd_protests#Split and Talk:George_Floyd_protests#Split_to_list_-_duplicate for discussion on the main article.... and I think you can blame user:Jax 0677 :) -- phoebe / (talk to me) 19:50, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Phoebe: I did a quick assessment. Jax 0677 did do the initial split. Can't fault being bold, but can criticize lack of attribution per WP:ATTREQ. It was blanked at George Floyd protests, so no duplication at the point.[1] Gammapearls restored the material, citing "undoing split pending outcome of discussion" Fair revert per WP:BRD. At the point, however, List of George Floyd protests should have been redirected back to "George Floyd protests", and avoid the duplicate content that got out of sync. Finally, Featous removes the content from "George Floyd protests" [2], but doesn't seem to have synced the two version that diverged over the 20hr period. Live and learn (hopefully). Best.—Bagumba (talk) 04:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

No, I did not sync the versions. After belatedly realized that there was duplicate content, and both were being updated, it was clear that the situation was only going to get worse the longer it lasted, so did a straight remove from George Floyd protests. I just finished catching up on my own edits that I lost. Also, 20 hours?! That's a shame. - Featous (talk) 05:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the analysis and efforts -- all of it was good faith editing on everyone's part, it's just a super chaotic and super super fast moving situation. I should have redirected the article as soon as I realized there was divergence, but I didn't! I'll try to go back through today and compare versions to see if other info was lost. Now at least I think we're in a place that's semi-stable (where there's one list article we can work on). Be well all. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 12:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

The map, redux

hi all, As noted above and on Talk:George Floyd protests the map is currently unreadable. In order to fix it, I'm starting a section to list all the cities that had multiday protests (eg both friday & saturday, sat/sun, etc) -- please help out. Cities with sources stating this please! Then the map can be adjusted so it's more readable. NOTE: this is not complete, need to add sources for many of these cities to the text and update as necessary. Alternative proposal: count cities with >1000 demonstrators -- I'm not seeing a source for size for many of these cities but that could be a good alternative. We could also show both pieces of data on the map with different colors of pins. I'll work on that after I get this sorted. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 20:24, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Hey Ɱ I see you are working on a maplink map - do you want to adjust the list to reflect the below when you're done? -- phoebe / (talk to me) 20:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• multiday note working on a better list/table format here: Template:George Floyd protests timeline
• Minneapolis
• Detroit
• Baltimore
• Phoenix
• DC
• Oakland
• LA
• Boulder
• Denver
• Hartford
• Atlanta
• Chicago
• Louisville
• St. Louis
• Omaha
• NYC
• charlotte
• Cincinnati
• Columbus
• portland
• Seattle
• Philadelphia
• Dallas
• Houston

Thank you, will do. ɱ (talk) 20:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Almost done, here right now: User:Ɱ/sandbox. Might just include every city in this large of a map. ɱ (talk) 21:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Ɱ Looks great! yeah every city seems fine for this size of map! and it's a different view that is good. Plus I don't have full sourcing lined up for my list above - working on it - so maybe every city for now. We'll have to add a not-pictured for international & Hawaii. When you are ready to transfer it I think it should go in this article and George Floyd protests -- phoebe / (talk to me) 21:29, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm away now but shouldn't NYC and San Francisco be added? Not sure of any other obvious commissions, needs further review. ɱ (talk) 21:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Awesome. I'll add SF & NYC now. And we are leaving it at >100 for now right? Do you know if there's a way to show Alaska/Hawaii? I'll check the cities real quick then move it over unless you beat me to it. Great work! -- phoebe / (talk to me) 21:46, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Indianapolis? ɱ (talk) 21:46, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I think right now there's no way to add outside the contiguous states, including other countries. We can mention it in the caption. Please review the cities; I'll be at an event tonight. ɱ (talk) 21:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

The final version is at {{George Floyd protests map}}, by the way. ɱ (talk) 21:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Ɱ - thanks - sorry I didn't see your template message. I'll add everything back in to the template page. Are you done with it now? -- phoebe / (talk to me) 22:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

(←) Yup I'm done, feel free to add to the new map. Sorry hard to write/talk on this phone. ɱ (talk) 22:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Table of cities

Hi all, perhaps foolishly but to try to bring some order to chaos I'm working on a table of cities in a sandbox page here: User:Phoebe/George_Floyd_protest_table - I figure we can use this data to better structure the article, the map, etc. once we have a better handle on the situation and more information. Please help out if you like. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 20:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC) -- superseded by List of George Floyd protests/table

Date subsections for cities

Just because theres large blocks of text for specifically Chicago, would it be beneficial to break down the text into subsections that block out the specific dates that the actions occurred? It's the only city that really needs it at this time.Leaky.Solar (talk) 02:03, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Chicago really needs to be split into it's own article or have a lot of this detail cut & tightened up. People keep talking about making a separate Chicago article but haven't yet. I'll do it in a little while if no one else does! -- phoebe / (talk to me) 12:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Names of non-notable people

I think per BLP we should try to not include the names of non-notable people who are incidentally involved in these situations - whether as a witness, or as someone arrested, or as someone injured, or whatever. We should be able to say whatever there is to say without putting their name out there for the world to see. Such publicity often results in harassment or worse. See WP:Biographies of living people#Presumption in favor of privacy. I have been removing the names of such incidentally-involved people when I find them, and I encourage other people to do the same. -- MelanieN (talk) 04:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Hard agree, names are irrelevant to the overall protest (which is what this article is about) unless they are very centrally involved. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 13:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd "died in a police encounter"?

This is the phrasing used in the first paragraph. It seems like a frankly bizzare use of the passive voice. He didn't "die in a police encounter," he was killed by a police officer. I say it should be changed to something more like;

"[...] a day after the [video-recorded?] murder of George Floyd, an African-American man, by a group of Minneapolis police officers." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbkjbk2310 (talk • contribs) 09:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Although I tend to agree with your assessment of what happened, I lean towards waiting on the outcome of this discussion. ECTran71 (talk) 09:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

It would be libellous & against WP policy to say that he was murdered. Jim Michael (talk) 17:18, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

We may be able to say "killed" later, but since the preliminary autopsy result didn't say killed we will have to wait for clarification. As for "murdered", we will not be able to say that unless and until there is a criminal conviction for murder. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Sioux Falls comments

George Floyd's Uncle Praises Proper and Honorable Protest in Sioux Falls Downtown

George Floyd's Family in Sioux Falls at Protest, Praises Honorable Protest

George Floyd’s uncle, Selwyn Jones, lives in Gettysburg, South Dakota and traveled to Sioux Falls to march with thousands to protest for justice in the death of his nephew.

“Today was absolutely beautiful, to over 2,000 people walking with signs for my nephew that would’ve put a smile on his face. He had a smile as big as the world and this gave me goosebumps to hear the speakers talking,” said Jones.

Jones was one of those speakers when the protest began at Van Eps Park. Protesters then traveled the Minnehaha Courthouse Building before ending at Law Enforcement Center.

Along the way, protesters were greeted with speakers at each destination.

“Beautiful speakers, beautiful crowd; I have nothing to say but thank you to Sioux Falls for making my nephews legacy a positive one,” said Jones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.219.129.46 (talk) 11:45, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Sioux Falls Downtown (Honorable) George Floyd Protest NOT part of Empire Mall Protest

The Sioux Falls Downtown Protest was not the same as the Empire Mall Riotous Protest. The downtown protest did not march to the Empire Mall. The march was done exclusively downtown. There was no march to the Empire Mall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.219.129.46 (talk) 11:52, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Please help provide sources (news accounts) that clarify so we can update the section. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 13:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd Mural Done by Sioux Falls Artist to Honor George Floyd

Mural is with article on protest march for George Floyd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.219.129.46 (talk) 11:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

References

All of this (except the mural) is already in the article. I am tidying it up and fixing the sources, and I will see about the mural. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Table

Hi all -- I am going to move the new city table -- which I think is a good idea! -- to List of George Floyd protests/table JUST FOR NOW so we can work on it and make it more complete, before moving back to the main article. It's confusing to readers right now because it's incomplete. Fill it out then we can move it back!! -- phoebe / (talk to me) 15:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Splintering of this list into city subarticles

Do we really need to keep subdividing this article into separate articles for individual cities? We already have seven of them, including not just major riots but minor locales like Bellevue, Washington. Will we soon have hundreds? Can we do anything to slow this down? oops, forgot to sign earlier: -- MelanieN (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I came to this talk page to suggest making a subarticle for the Chicago protests, which takes up a long chunk of space here in two loooong paragraphs which are very hard to read. Readability is important. And by my count, there are at present only six such subarticles: Minnestota, Columbus, O., Portland, Ore., Richmond, Seattle, and Bellevue. Why does that bother you? We will not have "hundreds" - only a handful or two for extra-long accounts of extended protests. And to repeat, would someone please move the Chicago section to a subarticle? I don't have the time today. Textorus (talk) 17:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd merge Bellevue and Seattle into one and call it George Floyd protests in Washington (with redirects), but I think Textorus is right, it's not going to be every article. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 18:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

phoebe, I made the same proposal (only calling it Washington State). There is currently a merge discussion at the Seattle page, you might want to chime in there. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Textorus, my problem is that there is no plan, no system, no rationale. Anyone who wants to make an article about protests in Somewhereville is going ahead and doing it. We could wind up with lots of trivial subarticles while needed ones go uncreated. I guess all we can do is to just let it run wild right now, and propose mergers after things calm down. But all this splitting is going to make information hard for readers to find: someone goes to Death of George Floyd, follows a link to George Floyd protests, follows another link to List of George Floyd protests, and finds one more link to finally get them to George Floyd protests in the place I was looking for. That is why I am not a fan of splitting to subarticles and subsubarticles. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN, I agree with you - this comprehensive list should be easy to find, and should meet the needs of folks who just want a quick overview. Though I see nothing wrong with subarticles for those big cities with big protests and lots of incidents being split off, as needed, eventually. Otherwise, this article will be unreadable, and thus a waste of editors' and readers' time. Textorus (talk) 20:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

We should move any relevant comments to the section #Split article by state? Please make all comments here below. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Chicago Illinois content may need to go to a new page

The Chicago Illinois entry is quite a long mess of words. Perhaps that content would be better served on another Wikipedia page? -- gt24 (talk) 18:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• Reply - Support split to List of George Floyd protests in Illinois per above discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

No need to split, just edit it as it has a lot of trivial information which if removed would not detract from what happened. Games of the world (talk) 19:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Just what I was about to say. Somebody could trim half the detail from the Chicago section and it would be greatly improved.-- MelanieN (talk) 19:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Please discuss this idea at the section #Split article by state? Please make all comments here above. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Chicago is split out to George Floyd protests in Chicago now. We could use a short summary here though I think. gobonobo ^{+ c} 00:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Middle East Change

A picture went viral of actions in Syria. Is this important enough to add? Syria BLM George Floyd — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.10.250.147 (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The Huntsville, AL protest had more than 100 people at it

perhaps it should be added to the map? Devann (talk) 14:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

You should post your request on the map talk page: Template_talk:George_Floyd_protests_map. Textorus (talk) 05:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposal: split out the larger cities with multi-day, violence/larger property damage

There have been several suggestions to begin to split this large unwieldy article. This proposal is intended to help with a way forward.

PROPOSAL: Split the detailed content in this article out to separate articles only for locations where the protests have grown/morphed/emerged into genuine incidents of violence or significant property damage (multiple buildings broken, looting, fires on property, etc.)—these articles would clearly each meet the general notability criteria as long as there are multiple independent sources; leave just a single short table entry with a link to each of these locations that will grow to have its own article. Leave the many many protests that are more pure play protest in this list alone. In both cases, only as much as reliable secondary sources support and are cited in the article.

• SUPPORT—as nom, support, per rationale given. N2e (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Comment This is the 3rd consecutive section of splitting in a row on this talk page. Please can we use 1 discussion instead of creating multiple instances. Myb opinion is this. Chicago needs editing to a sensible summary as a lot of the stuff there is trivial to say the least. No other article needs to be created. Games of the world (talk) 19:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

CommentPlease discuss this idea at the section #Split article by state? Please make all comments here above. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Comment This proposal seems to be happening, and is being implemented, on its own. About a half-dozen cities/localities have been hived off in recent hours/days, and are now independent Wikipedia articles on the cities with the more major and long-running protests that became riots when some (always much smaller) group of persons chose to do violence and destroy property. In my view, this is as it should be. But in any case, it IS happening already, and is in accordance with Wikipedia general notability criteria for independent articles. N2e (talk) 20:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

As of 5pm US eastern time on 2 June, the following nine (9) cities already have separate articles:

• Chicago
• Minnesota
• Columbus, Ohio
• Portland, Oregon
• Philadelphia
• Richmond, Virginia
• Bellevue
• Seattle
• Washington, D.C.

Some of the above really ought to be merged back at some point. I don't see a lot of content in those articles. I see play by play which should be edited to 1 or two paragraphs for this article. But this article has exploded again. Lots of 1 line entries. Games of the world (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Twitter thread

https://twitter.com/annehelen/status/1267625407013982210 This twitter thread has lots of protests not in the list if anyone can take the time to add them. Syryquil1 (talk) 08:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, but we can't use Twitter as a source for information. We could use Reliable Sources if they are available. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok so I've added a lot from the thread, just by googling the city name and then "protest", but I'm sort of tapped out. Here's where I left off if anyone wants to continue. https://twitter.com/annehelen/status/1267642659486568448?s=20 Syryquil1 (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Black Lives Matter

I've created WikiProject Black Lives Matter for interested editors. Thanks, ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Fairmont, West Virginia

The blue pointer for Fairmont West Virginia is no where near the town of Fairmont. Could somebody please fix this, because I am not sure how to. LegioV (talk) 23:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You should post your request at the talk page for the map: Template_talk:George_Floyd_protests_map. Textorus (talk) 05:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:George Floyd protests in Chicago which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 04:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

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• Wandbild Portrait George Floyd von Eme Street Art im Mauerpark (Berlin).jpg

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Why are references not displaying?

Is it just my computer, or what on earth is wrong with the References section? Looks to me like it is set up right, but nothing displays. Textorus (talk) 19:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The same thing is happening to me. Love of Corey (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Because the article is now too long and has too many references. A split is mandatory ASAP. I'd be bold and at least split US vs International ... but the US protests are still too long. But splitting out California should do much of the work. Nfitz (talk) 21:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

713 references, seems like every place there is a protest there is a bullet point. US v International will do nothing. International is very small and does not need separate article. The US sections need to be trimmed majorly and not have every single event/town or incident reported. Games of the world (talk) 22:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The amount and detail of incidents may need to be trimmed eventually; but I would strongly argue that every town does INDEED need to be listed, if only with a source citation. This is a major, historic national event; it's important for the historical record to show just how very widespread the protests were. In ten, twenty, or thirty years' time, where else could a researcher or even general reader find all these spots listed in one place? Textorus (talk) 09:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

713 references is after I just split 94 references to George Floyd protests in California. Probably need some more splits ... international could be one of them. I'll leave to others for now ... not sure what (if anything) should be deleted. Those that aren't notable ... but so many look notable at first blush. Nfitz (talk) 22:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you sure the split was a good idea at this time? Love of Corey (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The references were broken in the List of George Floyd protests article. Something had to happen quickly, to reduce the number of references in the article, so the references were visible again. Otherwise, I wouldn't have done this. It can be moved back later if someone can fix the problem ... though the article takes a long time to load already. Nfitz (talk) 22:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

PLEASE be careful about breaking references with splits, everyone! Just as a general point of order. They are super difficult to recover afterwards. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 20:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

More than?

What is the inclusion criteria, is it more than 100?Slatersteven (talk) 09:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

On the map, yes. In the article, there hasn't been one to date. If you'd like there to propose there should be, go for it. I'm OK with having any size protest in the text, as long as there's a good news source, because I think a record is important. (I also think there should be minimal detail for smaller protests, since the sources rarely support saying much beyond that one happened). --phoebe / (talk to me) 20:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Illinois/Aurora needs rewritten

The Illinois section starts out with a paragraph about Aurora. The text of this is mostly taken directly from this Chicago Tribune article, which makes it a WP:COPYVIO. This needs to be rewritten, would someone mind doing so, please? Phuzion (talk) 16:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

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Split article by state? Please make all comments here

Support split by state - This article is over 300 kB, and the largest states should be split to articles such as George Floyd protests in California, George Floyd protests in Ohio, George Floyd protests in Oregon, George Floyd protests in Washington, etc. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:53, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. I think that once we get the table up and going again this may be fine, but for now I think it's good to have one long scannable list. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 18:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Amen to the long scannable list. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. What phoebe said. This is the go-to place for all editors right now, and can be sorted out later IF need be. Also, seems to me it's a good thing for general readers who want a one-stop look at how many protests have occurred, and where. It's a wonderful historical record, which will be very useful to researchers in years to come. Though perhaps a hat note asking editors to keep each item short - say one paragraph of 4 or 5 lines - would be appropriate. Textorus (talk) 20:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• Reluctant support. I dislike the idea of multiple subpages, but they may be inevitable given the way everybody in the country is adding every detail about what is going on in THEIR city - and Jax's proposal has merit. It would have the advantage of having some kind of rationale for the process, which would be better than the free-for-all splitting that is happening now. We should keep a brief summary for each state here, with a "Main article" note to the split-off page, so that people don't have to go chasing all over the wiki to find the information they are looking for. See my comments in the section above this. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

BTW Jax, I see you have already made a redirect for Washington. That should be Washington State. Otherwise people will think it means Washington, D.C. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. These cut-and-paste "splits" have been very poorly executed. A lot of work went into the original Twin Cities protest article, but now we have George Floyd protests in Minnesota, which is a hack job with no lede section and no context given. Yes, we should have stand-alone articles where there enough material, but it should be done in a manner that retains context. New articles created by excising and dumping content from elsewhere should be discouraged. gobonobo ^{+ c} 19:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Let's see how this plays out before we start doing something that will be tedious to undo.»NMajdan·talk 21:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose -- we do not have sufficient reliably sourced info to have articles for every state on this. This list—as a brief and sourced summary of the protests in every location—is fine. Only the largest subsections of prose, on locations with violence and substantial property damage, would meet the Wikipedia article notability criteria for a separate article; and those could still be linked to from THIS summary list. N2e (talk) 21:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: I've split out the Chicago section to a new article at George Floyd protests in Chicago. gobonobo ^{+ c} 00:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: Eventually that will likely be needed (as well as by country, or region, for non-US protests). But, for now, many smaller states have had few protests. CrazyC83 (talk) 03:20, 2 June 2020 for people in big trouble spots want to know whatis happening localy/

  Secondary proposal: Split the article into List of George Floyd protests in the United States and List of George Floyd protests outside the United States. Juxlos (talk) 09:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

  Comment: I think this is a good place to at least start, if we can get United States data and International Data(Outside of the USA in this case) apart it should help compiling of future data. TheH1313 (talk) 13:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - The size issue can be dealt with aggressively trimming detail (or WP:SPINOFF to other articles). For example, Denver. I believe that this article best serves readers by being a concise but comprehensive list of protests. - MrX 🖋 10:43, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. Trimming seems to be the go-to solution in most cases. Love of Corey (talk) 10:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

• Reply - @Love of Corey:, @MrX:, be bold! --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:19, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay. Love of Corey (talk) 20:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - many states have remained relatively peaceful and uneventful and do not meet wp:notability requirements. - EelamStyleZ (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per MrX. This article needs a trim, not further splitting. — Goszei (talk) 23:15, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

COMMENT This proposal is clearly not going to gain a consensus. There is vastly too little sourced info for many of these states to support a separate article, per ordinary Wikipedia standards for a general notability criteria for an article. However, what is actually happening now, and what is proposed two sections below (Proposal: split out the larger cities with multi-day, violence/larger property damage), is that the major incidents of riotous behavior (with violence and extensive property damage) in any one location/city, are in fact being hived off into separate articles, which is consistent with Wikipedia policy and practice, and that more of these will be created in the next few days. Hopefully, each of those will be summarized, at a high level, in this "List of ..." article. Cheers. N2e (talk) 20:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

• I don't think we need articles for all U.S. states, but we should probably fork out pages for some such as Florida, Michigan, New Jersey, etc. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 05:23, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

comment: the references section was broken, and it seems like people are fine with splitting sections out to new pages if the amount of content creates a notable enough page, so i split the georgia section out to George Floyd protests in Georgia.

references were still broken, and i wasn't sure how many states needed to be split off to fix them, so i just split the international section out to International George Floyd protests. i know the name doesn't conform to the "George Floyd protests in" scheme, but something like "George Floyd protests in the world" (or "around the world") seemed too broad in scope since the united states is part of the world. feel free to move the page if you can think of a more appropriate name.

in any case, that split fixed the references for now, but if anyone feels that further consensus needs to be reached, feel free to undo my splits. dying (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Notes

• I'm not suggesting we need articles for all U.S. states, but I've gone ahead and forked out pages for Michigan and Texas. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Cut-off date for this article?

I think everyone who's edited this article in the last three days deserves a little applause for a job well done; this list will be a great resource for future readers and researchers in years to come. But it's now 11 p.m. where I live, and looking over various news sources for the states I'm interested in, I'm seeing a few stories about rallies/demonstrations/marches that were held today, that is, Monday the first of June. And some articles mentioning further such events planned for next weekend. Hmm. Being more of an historian than anything else, it didn't occur to me until just a few minutes ago that these protests could very well keep going on all summer long - or beyond!

So here's a question for general discussion: to keep this list from becoming completely unwieldy and unreadable over the coming weeks and months (as MelanieN has already suggested, with more foresight than I) - should there be a cut-off date for coverage of protests beyond the historic weekend just concluded? I have no idea how to proceed from here - what about the rest of you? Textorus (talk) 04:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

It's a fluid situation. We generally don't know until we know when it's time to split; WP:AVOIDSPLIT provides guidance. It could take weeks or months to figure out what is trivial, especially when there's the liklihood there is bias now towards WP:RECENTISM.—Bagumba (talk) 07:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I think Bagumba is unfortunately right. We don't know where this is going, so we can't set a cutoff date. I think this article will continue for a while to be the Wild West, with editors adding anything that's sourced. But I disagree that we need to wait weeks or months to figure out what is trivial. I think we can start now to weed out the chaff. What we as encyclopedists can do, is to try to trim a lot of the excess detail that gets added in the heat of the moment. We should try for summary type information, not the play-by-play, news-of-the-day, loaded-with-detail stuff that is a lot of our current content. We should be on the lookout for broader-view sources which summarize what has happened in individual cities, and use those sources to replace the breathless eyewitness reporting that we necessarily used at the time. We can start that process even now. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Good ideas. I worked pretty hard digging up sources for small cities and towns in areas known to me - the kinds of places where "nothing ever happens" - and I may not continue indefinitely with that. But some pruning of details on cities where lots of stuff has happened would not be a bad thing. Textorus (talk) 05:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@MelanieN: But I disagree that we need to wait weeks or months ... The time frames I threw out were meant to be semi-conservative (It could take weeks or months ...); it really depends on the subject complexity and the people involved. I didn't intend to suggest a minimum wait time.—Bagumba (talk) 04:36, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

This discussion is a little dated, but as we enter into our second full weekend / 12th day for many cities, I say we keep covering as long as there is something to be covered. I think from here on out it will be less about new places and more about keeping up with new days. But imagine the kind of historical summary that we might want ten years from now: whether it's "protests continued for two weeks" or "protests continued for two months" we'll want documentation of that. I think what we'll have to do is continually refactor the lede and summary sections so that they are up to date. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 22:34, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

List of George Floyd protests in the United States?

Now that international protests have been moved to a new article, should we consider moving this to List of George Floyd protests in the United States? ɱ (talk) 17:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

When "International" becomes a see also yes.Slatersteven (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Might be better to make this a disambig.Slatersteven (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this should be a disambig. It's actively confusing to have a page titled 'George Floyd Protests' and then one titled 'International George Floyd protests' Coffeespoons (talk) 18:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Wait, why did international protests get moved to a different article?? -- phoebe / (talk to me) 20:03, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I assume the page became too long - it's already too long just with protests in the USA. Coffeespoons (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Disagree with the suggested rename, and I think having a disambig page would be bad. Instead, I think that most states will eventually split out to a separate article, so we should wait for that to happen & have the article shrink naturally to reduce US focus. Mouthpity (talk) 21:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Currently the article International George Floyd protests is better-worthy of the article title List of George Floyd protests; take a look at it, it has the wider scope. This article could easily become a sub-article, List of George Floyd protests in the United States. They both could be presented together in most cases. Otherwise the article on the international protests should be named List of international George Floyd protests for consistency... ɱ (talk) 22:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Now that the international stuff has been split out, I'd support renaming this article as List . . in the United States, which tells readers something they need to know. And then the other one should, to avoid all confusion, be titled List of . . . too. But I don't quite understand your idea of making this article a "sub-article" - seems to me this one is and always should be the primary article, for obvious reasons. Textorus (talk) 01:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Split and reformation proposal redux

All, since there's been lots of back and forth and debates about splits on this article, I have a suggestion. We have several competing needs:

• recording all of the protests that happen - this is important, arguably crucial, for a historic event
• highlighting the MAJOR protests, the >5000 and above
• giving a casual reader a sense of the scope and scale of the protests - now over 8 days, across all 50 states and several international cities
• keeping the article readable and editable, which we've been struggling with
• keeping our data straight between the article and the map, and making sure entries are up to date (this is a struggle)

Several proposals have been made, including the following:

• splitting off sections for major protests (this has already been done, eg for Chicago, NYC)
• splitting off a section for each and every state (this has been done for some but not all states, eg California)

My proposal is that we work in parallel on two projects:

• continue to refine the state splits by splitting off states with a lot of protests and adding good summaries to the main article. At a glance, there could/should be a state-level split for Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Massachusetts (as a Bostonian, there's a lot more to say about the Boston protests) and Illinois.

• Meanwhile, work on a table that summarizes the list of protests across days with size info, so that we have an at-a-glance view of the scope and scale of the protests without all of the lists being split all over the place between 10-50 state articles. There's a start of a table here: Template:George Floyd protests timeline that we could work on. Eventually, this article could be replaced or mostly replaced with a table format giving the full list, and the more detailed explanatory text could be on state split articles. mouthpity also had the thought of building something that could drive a table and a map view simultaneously, based on wikidata, which is more complicated but a good ultimate goal.

• Also, as Textorus points out somewhere above, we don't have foresight: these protests may continue for weeks/months. So, ultimately (once we are out of the present moment) this article could provide a good SUMMARY of the scope/overview/historical meaning of the protests, give a table with what happened where, and have detail about states or cities on state/city level articles. Note that for the city articles, a lot of these splits were probably premature, but they will mature over time as there's analysis, consequences etc.

Thoughts? -- phoebe / (talk to me) 20:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

---

@Phoebe: ——

• highlighting the MAJOR protests; sense of the scope and scale; keeping the article readable and editable
  • Huge props to those who've taken these on. I think the article splits that have occurred naturally are well-done and logical overall. Agree with Phoebe on all points, though I want to add that out-of-date summaries are going to keep being a problem, and I'd support skipping state-article summaries in the main list completely for now.
  • Seriously, the articles on these protests seem to be one of the most useful news aggregators out there right now. I'm not used to seeing people post screenshots of Wikipedia instead of news links.
• recording all of the protests
  • should be part of table (see below)
• keeping our data straight between the article and the map, and making sure entries are up to date (this is a struggle)
  • This is a problem, yes, but I'm not sure it's really that bad. Once we build a usable+editable table, we could assign cities or states to various editors for crosschecking.
  • My concern is: Right now, the map is feeding off the list article. What happens when/if the protests endure for 2+ weeks from here on out? There will likely be few people left who are motivated to keep the list articles fully up to date, and the consensus guidelines will likely change to permit less information. (Will secondary source links still be posted for every day?)

So, moving on to the topic of building the table + map themselves:

• Strongly support having the table include an entry & reference for every single last protest that takes place. (Crossing some notability threshold—I'm happy with keeping 100 protestors)
• The visual editor will be useless if we end up with dozens of columns and 500+ rows.
• The map and table should be fed off the same data. This doesn't necessarily require a Wikidata integration.
  • I still think a data entry format as seen on Module:Protest Attendee Timeline is the right way to go. We should not store the full table markup on something of this magnitude.
• I'm less optimistic about having all these on a single page than I was, simply because of editability of files with tens of thousands of rows. We should be able to split data out across templates (i.e. have one template per state) and then tie them together with a central page (whose cache would have to be cleared once in a while.)
  • Technical details: We could have modules that can be passed a flag to generate JSON instead of a table. That JSON would get passed into the next module up the hierarchy as an argument. Modules are rendered inside-out by Mediawiki based on my testing (call-by-value style), so it shouldn't do the wrong thing. Wikidata quotas seem to be per module invocation, not per article.
  • I'm pretty convinced that this would completely sidestep Wikidata quotas.
• Since I understand a lot of folks are reluctant to integrating Wikidata usage into Wikipedia articles, a partial Wikidata integration could look like this:
  • enter the location & coordinates explicitly per city, but in a way that can be generated using just the entity ID (stored along with location + coordinate) in some small, external, purpose-built tool. I don't think this is the right path, but I'd be remiss not to mention the option.
• I'm probably going to end up adding a Wikidata entity ID to each location on the map template.

Mouthpity (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! A thought (unconnected to your proposal above) - we are starting to enter a TIME dimension. Like, we are not going to need to add another row or map entry for Boston - it's already there. But as the days go on we do need to enter the time / new days that protests happen on. I suspect the pattern is many smaller cities will have 1-2 protests over 1-2 days, but many major cities will have protests for 5 days+ (or longer), and this feels like a notable fact alongside size to record/visualize. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 22:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Phoebe: Yep, and I think my suggested format handles that pretty well. Ideally, we can change code in one place and it changes map rendering to emphasize whatever / generates timelines / ...

Unfortunately, I think full-Wikidata-integration is dead: it looks like transclusion of articles ignores the page cache! We could still have warnings for inaccurate coordinates or names on the state-specific pages (quite literally, a template that tells you "hey, please replace my source with this"), but there won't be a way to do anything much more useful with Wikidata on a bigger scale. (in other words, gotta make those state pages templates, and a self-reference with different parameters. kinda weird but livable.)

Mouthpity (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Phoebe: Random thought: Might it be helpful to hold such discussions in a central place, say, within the framework of a to-be-created WikiProject specific to the events and subjects in question here? Also pinging @Mouthpity, @Ɱ, @Rhododendrites. Not sure how to formally propose this.―BlaueBlüte (talk) 05:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Black Lives Matter was just created. Could/should be a good central discussion point if you all would like. ɱ (talk) 14:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I support phoebe's proposal. I would also point out that a broad overview of the protests deserves to be at George Floyd protests, which is currently just transcluding the lede here. That article is actually more background and reaction now that actual protest, which is precisely backwards. A lot of the high level content should be there. - Featous (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 5 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Already moved to List of George Floyd protests in the United States. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

---

List of George Floyd protests → American George Floyd protests – The international protests have their own article titled as such Georgia guy (talk) 01:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Alternative proposal – How about changing the request to "List of George Floyd protests in the United States" (for consistency with all the other "List of George Floyd protests in X" articles)? But agree, it should probably be moved, given that the international protests have their own article. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: - I agree with Paintspot - if renamed it should be List . . . in the United States, not American . . .. Textorus (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: I agree with the others. The name should be "List of George Floyd protests in the United States" if the move is done. However, I am not convinced that a move is needed.TheMemeMonarch (talk) 04:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment close this and reopen with proper proposed title: `List of ... in the United States`. --nafSadh ^{did say} 08:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

  Agree. Close and try again ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

  @Another Believer: Unnecessary. Just support the correct title. —Locke Cole • t • c 14:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

  Opting for reduced procedural clutter is fine with me. Changing !vote to Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States --nafSadh ^{did say} 22:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States. —Locke Cole • t • c 14:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States. Phuzion (talk) 14:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States. I brought this up a few days ago, makes more sense. The international article could just be titled "List of George Floyd protests". ɱ (talk) 17:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• No, no, no: Retitle this as indicated above but leave the international article title alone. Removing the word "international" would just confuse the living hell out of everyone. Textorus (talk) 23:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Well it either needs to be titled "List of George Floyd protests" (as the scope is much larger; the list of COVID cases article isn't just for China...) or it needs to be "List of international George Floyd protests". You and probably most others here have a strong U.S. bias. ɱ (talk) 01:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Back off, M, and keep your shade to yourself. I have no bias. I was suggesting a clear and logical way to title these articles without confusing readers. That is everyone's responsibility here regardless of who they are or where they live. You got a better way, you can make your own suggestions. But take that damn chip off your shoulder first. Textorus (talk) 22:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States instead of American George Floyd protests. Abishe (talk) 19:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States. But once the title is moved, the former should become a disambiguation page because if named List of George Floyd protests there is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and list about domestic and international article should be separated then international-focused content needs to moved to own article. 110.137.170.113 (talk) 21:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this will be a reasonable thing to do. --nafSadh ^{did say} 22:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States and changing this to a disambig.  Nixinova   T   C   06:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support List of George Floyd protests in the United States. Buttons0603 (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

This should be closed, right? The page has already been moved... ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Attribution

Lots of U.S. state articles are being split from this list. However, the split templates are not being added for all, like they have been above for California, Michigan, and Texas. Some work may be needed here to provide proper attribution on this talk page and the forked articles... @Jax 0677: Making you aware of this. Thanks for taking time to fork out content, but attribution is important. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean by "attribution"? Attribute what?Slatersteven (talk) 15:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven, See the "copied" templates at the top of this page for California, Michigan, and Texas, and see how they also appear on the respective talk pages for those articles? Those should be added for all the articles forked from this page. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Ahh then you did not mean Attribution.Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: ??. The templates must be added, because Wikipedia must properly attribute other's work. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Can you point out the policy that says this?Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Another Believer: thanks for mentioning this. i had previously not been aware, and had believed that noting the source article name in the edit summary was sufficient attribution. i will be correcting this on the pages i remember starting with content that was split from a different article.

i am currently assuming that using the template is only required during the initial split, and not when, for example, moving a few paragraphs from one article to a more appropriate article. is that correct of me to assume?

in addition, over a week ago, when the protests outside of the twin cities were listed on a page named "George Floyd protests", i believe someone had merged them back into a page named "Death of George Floyd" (currently named "Killing of George Floyd") via cut and paste, and the original "George Floyd protests" page became a redirect. eventually, the list of protests was split off again to i believe a page named "2020 Twin Cities riots" (currently named "George Floyd protests"), and eventually went through a series of moves, ending up on where it remains now, with its last move resulting in the deletion of the original "George Floyd protests" page and its history, since it was only a redirect at that point. should the history of the original "George Floyd protests" page be somehow resurrected?

i mention this because i know i worked on the original "George Floyd protests" page for a bit, and when i saw my edits disappear from my list of contributions, i thought it was strange, but did not think much of it, since i generally don't seek out recognition for my work. however, now that you bring this issue up, i'm not sure if i should be concerned.

i apologize in advance if i have gotten any details of the above incorrect. the splits, merges, and moves associated with these pages have gotten really confusing, and i am unfamiliar with many of the fancy administrative tools that would allow me to more easily confirm this. dying (talk) 04:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

At the very least making sure copy/paste moves are attributed in the edit summary (with a link to the specific diff) is helpful! -- phoebe / (talk to me) 16:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Removal of Template:More citations needed

Hi all. I've just removed Template:More citations needed from this article, because, as far as I can tell, every single event listed on this page has at least one citation. I am happy to be proven wrong, but if you do find an event needing a citation, please consider adding a reference yourself, or add Template:Citation needed to the events that you find needing a reference. I appreciate it! Phuzion (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Another one...

Again, I don't want to mess this up, but Brookings, South Dakota held a large protest (https://twitter.com/brkgsregister/status/1269105805699186689?s=20) ...is the proper way to learn to edit wikis just to edit and try not to mess up? I don't want to keep bothering people :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koymas (talk • contribs) 04:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

hi, Koymas! i've been editing here for years, and still regularly inadvertently mess things up. in fact, just a few minutes ago, i learned that the way i had been splitting pages had not been providing proper attribution. i think the key is to try to learn what you think you need before you make an edit, make it, and then be open to listening to what others have to say about it if something went wrong.

by the way, i noticed that the source you provided is from a twitter account. wikipedia has a policy that generally frowns upon using such sources, so i found a more reliable source for you.

https://brookingsregister.com/article/hundreds-gather-to-say-his-name

why don't you try adding the city to the list? i'll try to drop by in maybe an hour or so to see if you've done well or if i have anything to add, if another editor hasn't done the same. hope this helps! dying (talk) 05:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

looks good! i don't see anything i would change. thanks for your contribution! dying (talk) 08:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Summaries

Hi folks - I am going to start in on writing summaries for the split-off state level articles (so we can remove those ugly summary needed templates!) I'm going to go in order down the page, starting with Cali, so if anyone else is doing this work let's coordinate. Starting now. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 17:03, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

a new solution

The map and article size

Hi all, So I have been trying to get to the bottom of our template display issue and have been talking to some of our tech folks and I regret to tell you that the reason the templates are maxed out on this article is not due to all the entries, but rather because of the map, which is so unwieldy with code once converted to HTML that it is pushing us over the template limit. Basically, splits won't help unless we split everything -- the generated map code by itself pushes the technical limit, apparently.

So - what should we do about this?

• We could replace the map with a static image (lame)
• We could replace the map with a static image and link to the dynamic map (update: this is what I've done in all the relevant articles as a stop-gap fix for now)
• We could try to figure out a better technical solution to make the map more wieldy (not sure if possible - doesn't look like there's a way to optimize mapframe)
• We could start taking stuff off the map (Edit: apparently each city is ~180bytes and we can 'spend' 2mb on the page.) So let's say we increased the limit from 100 protesters to 1000 protesters -- it would help a lot, and the map would still be dramatic. (I think this is my first choice, mixed with a static screenshot of the international map).

Thoughts? pinging Jax_0677 mouthpity Ɱ Kire1975 Dying et al -- phoebe / (talk to me) 23:21, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Make a separate article to just house the map and link to it with a static image - I vote to "make a separate article to just house the map and link to it with a static image". --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
• Note: I took off the *international* map and that seems to have done the trick vis a vis template rendering. We are still probably pushing the limit, but it's a lot better. I decided to take off both maps for now and have static images that link as it was still taking a long time for the article to render. See below - we can still probably tighten up the map, plus better screenshots needed. I'll do the same edit on the List of George Floyd protests outside the United States article. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 23:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Would it be possible to store which cities have protests in wikidata somehow? AFAICT, mapframe has a wikidata option, that when you use it, only the size of the SPARQL query (not the results) count towards the POST-expand size. Bawolff (talk) 23:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

mouthpity has been trying to make something that calls from wikidata! How would we do it? Feel free to comment on Template:George Floyd protests map too, there's been a bunch of discussion there about this. cheers, -- phoebe / (talk to me) 23:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• It's a little unorthodox, but here is an article page that only holds the map -- phoebe / (talk to me) 23:48, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Aaaand that was probably unnecessary because I just linked to the template view. OK, static screenshot made and linked. Now, we need a BETTER static screenshot, that is clearer! I'll keep working on it but if anyone is a graphics pro feel free to replace. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 23:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I think i found a loophole. If we use Commons data namespace, its not counted towards post-expand size. See my comment on Template_talk:George_Floyd_protests_map#Using_commons_Data_namespace. Bawolff (talk) 00:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Seems to be the best option, I replied there. ɱ (talk) 00:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

thanks for pinging me and taking the time to talk to the tech wizards about the issue.

i'm currently against taking items off the map.

• in order to be fair, it would require consensus for a new criterion to limit entries.
• the execution thereof would be highly time-consuming, since there are already over 600 entries on the map.
• we would probably encounter strong resistance from many of the new users that just joined us in order to place themselves on the map (quite literally in this case, interestingly), and i don't want to undo the first edits of some of our new users.

an alternate solution would be to create a new map with protests at least 1000 strong to include on this page, which then had a link to a page with only the initial map (and possibly also a link to a page with the new map).

• we wouldn't have to remove cities from the initial map.
• i don't think the international page has run into any problems so far with the references breaking, since it is a much lighter page, so i see no problem with keeping the initial map there.
• leaving the initial map intact would also allow some of the other pages that have split off to keep using that data, since a map of a state with ten cities marked looks a lot more interesting than one with only one or two cities marked.

the main negatives i see with this alternative solution is that there's still work to be done to create the map in the first place, the protests may end up increasing in size so the new map may end up causing the same problem, and having two maps may be making things too complicated.

i see that bawolff seems to have the technical expertise to set up a workaround, which i am for. if that doesn't work, i would suggest the alternate solution i described, but don't really feel strongly about it. the only thing i'm currently against is removing the first edits of some of the new users.

wow, thanks for reading all of this. dying (talk) 00:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• Make a separate article to just house the map and link to it with a static image - if the static image could be updated routinely with an "as of" date and a clear link to the original map. The new map could have different sized markers for over 1000 and over 5000 without wieldiness on the other page. 02:20, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

i should point out that, although criteria based on numbers that aren't powers of 10 may be theoretically interesting, attempting to implement them would be a practical nightmare, as many sources will report using phrasing such as "hundreds", "thousands", "tens of thousands", or "hundreds of thousands", which would make it confusing as to whether, for example, a protest with "thousands of people" should be included if the map only includes protests with at least 5000 people. dying (talk) 03:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Frietjes: might have a new solution, reducing the amount of text in the code by about two thirds. Check it out. 02:27, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Can we not also be conscious about keeping the decimal limit to two points? Someone has been adding a bunch of extra numerals to every city they input. If the size of the article is affecting this unwieldiness, then we should be keeping control of as much extra data as possible, and tell that user who has no talk page to knock it off. Kire1975 (talk) 03:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, dying. How do you feel about the static image + link to the map? With that solution, the map works as-is with no changes - it's just not as cool. :( Also, I've started adding static screenshots to the state articles, eg -- George Floyd protests in California -- see what you think. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 02:20, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

actually, now that you're adding screenshots to some of those state articles, that actually looks pretty cool, especially since those pages didn't have a map before. it might not be as good as the dynamic version, but it's far better than no map at all. i had been hoping to find the time to add a dynamic version of the map, properly cropped, to some of those state or country articles, but never got around to it, and am assuming now that i probably shouldn't until the technical issues are resolved.

did you comment out the map on the international page because the map itself is causing trouble for wikipedia? i had previously thought that that wouldn't have been an issue with the international article, considering its light weight, and the fact that i have yet to encounter any issues with loading that page. however, i didn't want to add it back in since i figured you had taken into account other issues that i was unfamiliar with.

anyway, i agree, that seems like a pretty good stopgap until a technical solution is found. thanks for implementing it! dying (talk) 03:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Bawolff: Moving this all to wikidata would be cool. I'm unsure how restrictive the query limits are. (I know that you can't fetch 600 cities' states and countries using Lua+Wikibase within the rendering time for one article, at least!)

@Dying: Instead of duplicating the map, I think we should go further in tailoring that Module:Mapframe/simple module and make the minimum displayed size of protests a parameter of each city; that way, we can set up the cutoff on a per-use basis. We should also include some sort of country/state code field, such as US-AL; IT. That'd be good for state articles and to exclude the US. In terms of the “thousands” phrasing issue you mentioned — I think we can take the simple way out in admonishing people not to use minimum limits that aren't powers of 10.

Mouthpity (talk) 06:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Mouthpity: apologies if i'm not understanding your comment correctly; i like to claim that i'm technically oriented, but i think the first time i've seen lua code was after following your link, and i know virtually nothing about the technical aspects of wikipedia.

by "make the minimum displayed size of protests a parameter of each city", do you mean that each city should have an additional parameter, namely, the size of the protests? i'm assuming this would then allow you to have each instance of the map generated with an additional (perhaps optional) limiting parameter passed, which would then determine if the city shows up on the map or not. actually, this seems like a pretty good idea. it avoids a lot of the negatives associated with my idea of making two maps.

• • user that adds a city has optional parameter: lower bound of attendance
  • code assumes by default lower bound is 100
  • user that requests a map has optional parameter: minimum size of protest (perhaps input as an integer, interpreted as log₁₀ of desired minimum size)
  • code assumes by default log₁₀ minimum size is 2

admittedly, i should have thought about solving the problem by changing the code instead of changing the user. thanks for pointing that out!

also, regarding adding a state or country field, that seems like a good idea too. i'm assuming we should request users to use iso 3166-1 alpha-2 codes and iso 3166-2:us for american cities, but they're probably familiar with the codes of the cities they're adding if they're adding them. the code could also interpret the lack of a code (or an incorrect code) as a city that should be included, in order to err on the side of inclusion and also allow the current list to be used as is.

regarding the lua code, from what i previously understood of the issue, Bawolff is stating that the size of "the wikitext generated after all templates are expanded but before they're turned into html" is too large. am i correct in assuming that the lua code you linked parses this wikitext and outputs the html? if so, can this code be edited or forked? basically, from looking at the wikitext, it looks like there are a large number of instances of certain strings such as "geometry", "properties", or "marker-size". offhand, i would assume that if you added an additional or operator for code that was looking for these certain strings to make them able to parse different, shorter, strings, and then similarly updated the code that produced the wikitext, the size of the raw wikitext passed to the lua code could be reduced by maybe 10%. for example, instead of passing the string "marker-color", you could simply pass "mc", and change the lua code that looks for the former string, such as the line

local mcolr = vals[6] or _args['marker-color'] or ''

to

local mcolr = vals[6] or _args['marker-color'] or _args['mc'] or ''

instead. even so, admittedly, you don't save a lot with this option, so it might not be that useful.

alternatively, if you can fork the code, why not drop all the parameters in the wikitext that are pretty much the same for all the cities, and simply add them back in the forked code? for example, instead of including ""marker-size":"small"" for each city, you can omit it from the wikitext, and the forked lua code can just assume the desired marker size is small. is that possible? is there a way to tell whatever runs the lua code to use the forked code whenever the (abbreviated) wikitext for this map is encountered?

anyway, i hope i'm making some sort of sense here. i haven't really looked at the guts of wikipedia before. dying (talk) 09:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Dying: "do you mean that each city should have an additional parameter, namely, the size of the protests" --> yes. this won't increase the post-expand size, and it would never leave mapframe/simple (aside: or whatever it's renamed to, as I think it should be renamed)

I'm strongly in favor of using 3166-1 alpha-2 + 3166-2:us.

@Bawolff: How can I access the code that's counted for the "Post‐expand include size"? One simple change to decrease size could be to omit setting marker-symbol, marker-color, marker-size when they're not passed in as arguments (and maybe let go of the city icon in the process). Module:Mapframe always explicitly sets these, falling back to the language defaults — is it setting marker-size and marker-symbol to null explicitly in the output JSON!?

I think we're providing more value by letting people access the map quickly than by showing them nice icons and colors ;)

Mouthpity (talk) 10:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Mouthpity: you can use special:expandtemplates to see. I think using commons data namespace is probably the best solution here, because even if you can squeeze a few extra bytes out of the map its still going to be huge. Bawolff (talk) 17:28, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Bawolff: Yeah, that's too bad. We could still use show= params on the map to only show certain sets of protests, I think. Guess it'd be good to have a nice way of inputting them, eg a bot that takes another Data: entry on Wikicommons and turns it into the .map. Mouthpity (talk) 18:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

So I'm learning how the commons data namespace works as we speak, BUT would there be a way to combine tabular data of all the protests (eg like this for Covid and have it either feed or tie into the map? I want to keep the whole thing user-friendly editable but I also want to start nailing down a list of data/protests, which I think would be useful in a bunch of contexts (eg if we tabulate let's say that there were 650 protests, with sources, the news is going to start using it - I haven't seen anything similar elsewhere). Also ping sj -- phoebe / (talk to me) 18:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

You can use lua to have the general tabular data (ending in .tab) feed into a map, but it will still have the same post-expand size issues as the existing solution. You have to use the GeoJSON (ending in .map) format if you want to get around the size limits. Bawolff (talk) 01:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

another issue just occurred to me. when proposing to add the size of a protest as another parameter for each city, we are ignoring the fact that many cities have had multiple protests. for example, munich had a protest that was about 350 strong when it was first added to the map, but the protest last weekend was about 25,000 strong. it would be difficult to make sure that these cities are appropriately updated. i'm not sure what to do about that.

also, i agree with Bawolff that dropping a few extra bytes here and there may not be as effective as simply using the commons workaround. however, i know that not as many users would be willing to edit data under commons. would it be plausible to keep a map in commons updated somewhat regularly using the data from the template here on wikipedia and use that map instead of the static screenshot, while keeping the link to the actual template in the caption? it is true that the maps on the articles still won't update as soon as a city is added to the template, but at least this way, updates would probably be a lot more frequent than the screenshot option, where someone has to manually create a screenshot for each instance to be updated. dying (talk) 06:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Notes

Press mention of Wikipedia article

• https://slate.com/technology/2020/06/wikipedia-george-floyd-neutrality.html

---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)