Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Maliner false information

This is a continuation of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1114, where I reported User:Maliner's problematic editing which involved spreading false information by using unrelated and dubious sources. User:Inomyabcs very kindly attempted to resolve the situation on the article's talk page, but whilst the discussion continues to happen, Maliner continues to add false information in the article. I don't want to start an edit war again, but it's shocking that action is not being taken against Maliner's edits. It's clear that he isn't open to discussion and does not want to admit that he is connecting two different things to alter the reality of a concept. SalamAlayka (talk) 14:45, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Can anyone please check the presented sources in article's text, this user's is not following the wikipedia guidelines of reliable sources and pushing his or her own original research. Maliner (talk) 14:53, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

and may I know who has given you the authority to designate me with the pronoun "he". Maliner (talk) 14:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a different preferred pronoun? It can be a bit tough to tell around here. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I always use they as a non-specific pronoun, it's how I was brought up. Was always taught to never use a gender specific pronoun unless the usage of that is actually important to the point being made, which it very rarely is. Canterbury Tail talk 15:22, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Probably the best way to go, and I try to do the same, but I am old enough that sometimes I slip into old habits. Always happy to be corrected, though. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:27, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I think it is polite to use the user’s preferred pronoun if you know what it is. I installed User:BrandonXLF/ShowUserGender, which shows that next to the username in conversations. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:27, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

(blinks) There aren't many people out there young enough to be raised to use non-specific pronouns; it's a quite recent practice. Calling people what they ask you to call them is the way to go, of course, but the hostility of Maliner's response doesn't precisely allay the worries raised by the OP. (That aside, I'm raising an eyebrow over a newbie editor with just 52 mainspace edits declaring themselves a recent changes patroller.) Ravenswing 18:28, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

It's been pretty common in British English, and local varieties under that, for a few centuries. It seems like it's mostly American English and Canadian English that's having a growth period over it. Unless the gender is important to the point, use they as a singular pronoun. Unconnected to self-identification which is where all varieties of English are experiencing a change and growth. Canterbury Tail talk 20:27, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

• The article referred to apparently (without diffs or anything else) is Barelvi.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:00, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

  Seems like this same fight has been going on for a few weeks: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1114#Maliner_false_info and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1114#Barelvi didn't get any third-party input. JBL (talk) 19:03, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

  And the basis looks very much like a content dispute, with bad faith being assumed by people on both sides. Can't you just talk about the facts of the case (such as whether particular names precede this movement) without making any personal comments about editors? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:08, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

  There's a section at the bottom of Talk:Barelvi (I started it and since I know absolutely nothing about the point at issue, I then walked away) where discussion has been proceeding since 29 November. Not always very civilly, but it is proceeding. Those taking part deserve credit for continuing to talk the issue through. Yngvadottir (talk) 11:04, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail: @Bbb23: @JayBeeEll: @Phil Bridger: @Yngvadottir: Essentially what is going on here is that Maliner wants to present the Barelvi subsect as being equivalent to, or being the authentic form of, Sunni Islam (known in Arabic as Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l-Jamā'ah). For an analogy, think of the Church of England and wider Protestantism. The evidence of this can be seen in the talk page where he suggests that the Barelvi article be rename to the latter (which is just the name of Sunni Islam in Arabic). This is a very dishonest approach from Maliner as anyone that can do basic research on such a topic will release that there are a wide variety of movements under Sunni Islam. The Barelvi movement is mostly limited to India and Pakistan, with an extensive diaspora community. However, Maliner adds information to the article using sources which mention the term Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l-Jamā'ah since he considers it to be the same as the Barelvi movement. This is like an "Our movement is right, all the others are wrong" sort of idea which is dangerous to the neutrality of Wikipedia. SalamAlayka (talk) 11:58, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

This user has again started removing well sourced content from Barelvi. Can admin help in this bad behaviour. Maliner (talk) 12:16, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@Maliner: Myself and two other editors have agreed that your paragraph is not relevant and is too generic. The removal of such content is not vandalism, and I urge you to stop this edit war. SalamAlayka (talk) 15:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion is still going and you are repeatedly removing the content. This show your bad faith intentions to vandalize Wikipedia. Your actions are under moderation now as you are on ANI now. None of the participants is satisfied with your behavior per talk:Barelvi. Maliner (talk) 16:53, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

• Both SalamAlayka and Maliner should make a stronger effort to wp:assume good faith and engage in productive discussion. That said, I agree with SalamAlayka that Maliner is not just wrong, but wrong in a way that if not abandoned will cross to WP:TENDENTIOUS territory. Maliner should understand that, whatever their personal beliefs about this, scholars do consider Wahhabis, Salafis and Deobandis to be Sunni Muslims, and that Wikipedia follows scholarship. We also do not follow the claims of one religious denomination that other denominations are incorrect in their beliefs, and continued addition to articles of content implying this will be considered disruptive. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  @Apaugasma May I know where I have mentioned my personal beliefs? you both are assuming baseless faith about me without any evidences. What, if I will tell you a that you are a staunch Shia as you have written about Abu Lulu, not only you have written about him but taken it to good article status. You are writing about Shia sect that does not mean that you are Shia. Will you stop making baseless claims now? And as far as I know, Wikipedia is not a place to discuss sectarian biases at all. As far as Wikipedia:SCHOLARSHIP is concerned you should check the relevant places for reliable sources such as article talk or relevant pages, I am addressing it at relevant place. Maliner (talk) 06:38, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  I'm referring to things like the following:

  • adding stuff like Bangladesh Islami Front and its students wing Bangladesh Islami Chattra Sena have worked to protect the faith and belief of Sunni Sufis in the country and took stands against Deobandi Hefazat-e-Islam Bangladesh and Salafist Khelafat Majlish, which frames the Barelvi opposition against Deobandis and Salafis as 'protecting faith and belief'
  • replacing Barelvi with Ahle Sunnat (Barelvi) as if Ahl al-Sunna (= Sunni Islam in general) were identical to the Barelvi movement.
  • comments like this, where you say things like If someone considers Wahhabism, Deobandism and Salafi movement under Sunni Islam and correct in their beliefs then why would their speakers are against them like Barelvis, citing a source that in translation says The speakers said that Wahhabism-Shiaism-Salafism, which is a false interpretation of Islam, is contrary to faith and distorts religion [...] The identity and contours of true Islam, i.e. Ahl al-Sunnah, are being endangered and pushed to the face of extinction through Sunni claims despite being followers of null and materialistic doctrines and denying the fundamental aspects of religion, all in an apparent argument that, again, Ahl al-Sunna refers only to Barelvis.
  • your argument at RfD [1] [2] that Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah should redirect to Barelvi because sources indicate that the Barelvis call themselves that way, all the while ignoring that there are several other organizations and movements with that name, and that the expression in fact is, just like Ahl al-Sunna, a synonym for Sunni Islam in general.

  In short, your edits seem to be targeted at making Wikipedia adopt the Barelvi claim that they are on the only or true Ahl al-Sunna and that their opponents are not. In the course of this you are skipping normal WP procedures such as distinguishing between what we say in wiki-voice and what we cover with explicit attribution to partisan sources, as well as the normal considerations regarding primary topic at a venue like WP:RFD. I'm sure that you don't mean it this way, but it is disruptive, and it does need to stop. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 18:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  @Apaugasma Just shooting limitless arrow in the air will prove your point? You are free to assume whatever rubbish you want to assume regarding me as evidenced above. Need Administrator comment on how the sources presented below fails WP:RS guidelines per Any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by a reliable source. Material for which no reliable source can be found is considered original research. The only way you can show your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material. Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research; see below. In general, the most reliable sources are:

  Peer-reviewed journals

  Books published by university presses

  University-level textbooks

  Magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses

  Mainstream newspapers

  • • Ahle Sunnat-Energizing Faith in Rough times. Chapter 6, Book-Syncretic Islam: Life and Times of Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi By Anil Maheshwari, Richa Singh.
    • “In the Path of the Prophet: Maulana Ahmad Riza Khan Barelwi and the Ahl-e Sunnat wa Jamaat Movement in British India, c. 1870-1921” by Usha Sanyal
    • Source relevant to Bangladesh.
    • book by Mufti Akhtar Raza Khan.
    • Moj, Muhammad (1 March 2015).The Deoband Madrassah Movement: Countercultural Trends and Tendencies. Anthem Press. ISBN 978-1-78308-446-3. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 December 2022.
    • Dressler, Markus; Geaves, Ron; Klinkhammer, Gritt (2009-06-02). Sufis in Western Society: Global Networking and Locality. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-134-10574-8.
    • AbiiSulaymiin, AbdulHarnid A.; Aasi, Ghulam-Haider; Blankinship, Khalid; e, Ola Abdel-Kawi and James f i l; Ali, Hassan Elhag; Siddiqui, Dilnawaz A.; Poston, Larry. American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences 8:3. International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT).. Maliner (talk) 14:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Admins do not comment on content here, only behavior. They will not give you a ruling in your favor. And frankly, your behavior in ANI is likely to draw unpleasant results. I suggest you drop this and go back to discussing on the article's talk page. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Iathien & Talk:Mediterranean Sea,

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Iathien seems to have a problem with Turkey being mentioned in areas they consider purely Greek, see Talk:Mediterranean Sea & Talk:Mediterranean Sea. The editor seems to be Greek and is fighting the Greek/Turkey dispute on these pages. I think it is likely breaching WP:NPOV as well as being tedious. --Kitchen Knife (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Kitchen Knife, you have yourself levelled personal attacks against other editors in the talk page threads you are referring to. I am not saying that Iathien's conduct has been acceptable - it has not - but yours is also seriously substandard. I don't have a view on the content dispute that is at the heart of this, but you need to take a look at your own behaviour here, regardless of who is right and who is wrong on the content. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Then I suggest you put a complaint in about me, rather than use this one to vent your pent-up anger.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 22:42, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Not an ideal response. I thought the username was familiar - I realise that I blocked Kitchen Knife myself for personal attacks earlier this year. Since then, they have been blocked again in November for PAs, and had TPA revoked for abuse of their talk page while blocked, and their fifth edit after that block expired was to call another editor a ridiculous and laughable Greek Propagandist, who cannot even read a map. Since they seem not to understand what the problem is, I have blocked Kitchen Knife indefinitely. I currently have no view on whether any action is needed with regard to Iathien: they certainly seem to be casting aspersions about other editors inappropriately, but the account has very few edits so this might be down to inexperience. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:57, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

It's quasi-moot since your block, but you're not an ANI rookie, and you have no excuse for not understanding how ANI works. Any participant is liable to have their own record reviewed and questioned, and no participant gets to dictate what is or is not discussed. Ravenswing 23:01, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

The OP has been indef with TPA revoked for continued harassment and combative editing. RickinBaltimore (talk) 00:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

We do not need militant, aggressive nationalists of any nationality on this encyclopedia. I would happily block three Greeks and three Turks, and an Armenian, an Azerbaijani. a Kurd, a Syrian and an Israeli too. Even an American or a Mexican. Oh, a Pakistani and an Indian too. Edit neutrally and calmly, collaborating and building consensus with people witn different views, or you are going to get blocked. Cullen328 (talk) 08:58, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive page moves of African leaders

@Setswana: has recently been moving the pages of African leadership positions (President of X, Prime Minister of X) to "List of presidents/leaders etc....." (see Prime Minister of Zimbabwe for an example). Most of these can be reverted but I noticed yesterday on President of Zambia where the page was moved to a "List of" and then recreated as a duplicate (this was sorted by @Asukite: at WP:RM) but given the history of this user doing this in their logs as well as their apparent refusal to engage when I asked about it, suggests we may need to have a discussion about this as well as possible wholesale reversals of their undiscussed moves. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 10:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

(What a coincidence, I just requested TPA revocation for an IP and I see this in the section above)

If they're back up to this nonsense again, an indefinite block for disruptive editing is needed, until such time as they are willing to actually engage with other editors. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 12:43, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@Mako001: I had thought about that being a possibility under WP:NOTHERE but i'd like to see what the admins think. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 19:19, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Already blocked for 3 days by Ad Orientem. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 19:35, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Setswana has now returned to edit war whilst logged out using multiple IPs, clear DUCKS, on List of prime ministers of India (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). See 2405:205:150a:3f71::939:8a0 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 103.129.220.201 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Can we now make the necessary indef? And block the IPs too. Honestly, I thought that they'd at least wait out the block before getting back up to their nonsense, but apparently not. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 13:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

And yet another twist. We have socking.

Quacking is coming from the following accounts:

Botswana Gaborone (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (for those unaware, Setswana is a major language in Botswana)

Suiste mollar filtri (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

May add some more, this will probably need splitting off to a proper SPI at some point. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 13:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• Setswana indeffed. IP's blocked. List of prime ministers of India protected x 2 years. Two sock accounts already indeffed. -Ad Orientem (talk)

Thanks. It seems that they have been evading scrutiny for a while. See 2405:205:1000:0:0:0:0:0/36 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Back in August, Tamzin gave this range a week off. Maybe it might do to watch this range, but blocking the /36 doesn't seem necessary (yet). Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 14:04, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Blocked the 2405:205:1000:0:0:0:0:0/36 range x 3 months. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, actually, there was a lot of other garbage coming from that range too. I was just thinking of the stuff which was obviously from Setswana. Good block. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 06:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Just for the record – I tagged Setswana and Suiste mollar filtri with appropriate sock-related tags, but I was unable to do the same with Botswana Gaborone, due to their Wikimedia account. When I tried to tag the Wikimedia account, it was refused and I got a message that some of my rights (apparently my autoconfirmed status) are temporarily revoked. I am really not familiar with all of this, so it would be appreciated if someone can look into this issue. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 14:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I figured out how to properly tag Botswana Gaborone on the English Wikipedia, so I did it. The existence of their Wikimedia account caused come confusion on my part. Someone should look into the issue of whether its necessary to tag the Wikimedia account as well, and the issue of my rights status, as I said in the post above. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 14:48, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

There also seems to be Admi Javed Khan king (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who scored an indef cublock from Drmies. It may do to hear what they found to trigger that (or at least as much as they can share). Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 02:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Mako001--well spotted. Yes, that editor is completely incompetent and a terrible nuisance. Perhaps one of you would like to start an SPI; I have also CU-blocked User:Джавед Хан 786 786, User:Botswana Gaborone, and User:Suiste mollar filtri. Pinging User:Yamaguchi先生 as well--you blocked a big fat range, first for some of those articles and then just generally. Drmies (talk) 16:44, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I'll start an SPI sometime withing the next few hours. At this point, it will basically just be a fomalisation and summarisation of this discussion, since all accounts are indef blocked. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 22:52, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Machiavellian Gaddafi and Llll5032

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Request for a temporary ban for user:Llll5032, or a ban from editing Censored.TV. Multiple instances on talk page of warring and blatant editing biases. The latest example is of page titled Censored.TV, as user is submitting continuous reverts, of which new references and edit summary do not match given do not match edits.

• Llll5032 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Continuous reverts, of which edit summary does not match given do not match edits. Wikipedia:Edit warring

Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk) 05:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello. Most of this new article, about a controversial website, was unreliably sourced and self-sourced. I removed undue WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:PROMO content, aligned the descriptions to the WP:BESTSOURCES available, and added tags. I made no reverts. Machiavellian Gaddafi has reverted my editing and decided to escalate to ANI without discussing on the article talk page. Llll5032 (talk) 05:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that Machiavellian Gaddafi wrote most of the article in dispute. Machiavellian Gaddafi wrote tonight on my user talk page about one section, "Expecting an email with various articles included in it tomorrow, and I will implement them once I receive them." I don't know what Machiavellian Gaddafi meant by that, but an explanation may help. Llll5032 (talk) 08:14, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

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From User: Machiavellian Gaddafi

User WAS warned, but shows to remove it from their page, as seen below:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MobileDiff/1126409909&markasread=266129110&markasreadwiki=enwiki

User is also continuing to vandalize and misinterpret the page Gavin McInnes with purposeful biases. Warnings like these have been given by several other users over the recent past (starting in October of 2021), as you will see on there talk page. This is an ongoing issue that apparently hasn't been addressed, and it shows that this user, Llll5032, is using Wikipedia for their own personal issues rather than matching what said reference points present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 06:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not "continuing" anything. My edit at Gavin McInnes was well sourced, and now I see that my edit in fact returned a description ("far right") to the stable version that existed before Machiavellian Gaddafi changed it on December 6. Llll5032 (talk) 06:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

And no, all my edits came before any "warning" by OP (by a minute); the first communication by OP was the ANI notice, with no prior discussion. I detailed more below about the chronology and my hasty deletion of part of the notice on my user talk page (not in bad faith), but I realize now that this aspersion needs a more immediate correction. Llll5032 (talk) 10:19, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

From Machiavellian Gaddafi

There's a clear pattern here, shown through both your edit history and, not specifically, complaints from other users. I'm only asking that you cannot continue to edit these pages, as your reasonings do not match your actions. For example, one of your edits included falsely adding a an individual the Censored.TV that is not part of their staff, and had never been employed. You also added the term white supremacist to this person, being Nick Fuentes. Although that accurately describes him, putting this on a page that has nothing to do with him other than an interview is slander. As aforementioned, your edits have a pattern of doing such things, and others have talked to you about it. Let's let the administration decide what to do with this, and I ask in the meantime that you stop with this obsessive and overreaching behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 06:29, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I added white nationalist because that is what the two cited RS called him.[3][4]. Machiavellian Gaddafi's description for Fuentes is "campaign staff member and political commentator",[5] which is not a description used in the RS. (Also, I want to note that I used white nationalist to match the two RS, not white supremacist as Machiavellian Gaddafi writes above. I ask Machiavellian Gaddafi to cease aspersions and take a break.) Llll5032 (talk) 06:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

From From Machiavellian Gaddafi

Let's leave it up to the administration to decide, after reviewing your edits and complaints from others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 06:56, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

One more thing: I take WP:CONSENSUS seriously and discuss any disagreements in good faith in summaries or on article talk pages. So no, I did not ignore any warnings from Machiavellian Gaddafi. My last edit to either disputed article was at 5:13, a minute before I was notified of Machiavellian Gaddafi's first communications to me at 5:14, which was an ANI notice!. (Machiavellian Gaddafi appears to think that I used some bad faith when I deleted half of that 5:14 notice in my reply on my talk page, which quoted his initial 5:10 ANI complaint that did not tag me, but I actually deleted it because it had a repeated heading and I thought it was an ugly mistake.) Meanwhile, Machiavellian Gaddafi has edit-warred his preferred versions back in at Censored.TV[6] and McInnes[7] since making his complaint. Llll5032 (talk) 07:45, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

As do I, but your recent actions say otherwise. You still haven't explained why you chose to delete 80% of the Censored.TV Show section, instead of addressing the issues at hand. I reverted the changes as the removals did not follow Wikipedia guideline (as I'm allowed to do without continuous warring, hence the Undo link), as a number of would've been warranted. I created the page just 24 hours ago, and to delete almost all of it when all of the references/links, which are direct urls to the content mentioned, raises a red flag. Reading through your talk page shows that you're notorious for this kind of editing, and it always targets political figures and commentators of both the moderate, libertarian (McInnes), and conservative realms. 100% of your issues with other user have has to do with pages like these. Now, I understand that you can edit whatever page you want, but you have a history of overstepping Wikipedia Guidelines and deleting other's hard work, due to what shows as blatant bias and borderline vandalism. As a so-called Longtime Wikipedia fan, occasional editor, this contrasts the persistent complaints by others.

I don't want you banned, but you do seem to have to do a lot of apologizing for "mistakes", mistakes that always involve the same actions and targets. The same mistakes don't happen dozens of times. Some of these edits are by paid, freelance editors, and they take these articles seriously. Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk) 08:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I’m in hospital waiting for a CT PET scan and don’t have much to say other than this seems to be a political dispute. I’ve seen pov and badly sourced edits by you and I’d advise any other Admins or editors to look at he edits by both of you. I don’t know what paid editors you are talking about, could you elucidate? Doug Weller talk 08:34, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Looking at the OP’s talk page they say they are paid to edit. Doug Weller talk 08:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Two of the user complaints are from freelance editors from two different outlets; that's all I was referring to. I'm personally not paid for any edits a this time, but rather doing some work for some peers. Anyways, thank you for reaching out to me, and I'll try and be more accurate with some of my sources and formatting. The only real issues that I have were mislabeling and excessive deletions, but your on it, so that's all from me. Thanks again, and good luck with the CT scan... hospital visits are far from pleasurable. Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk) 09:15, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Machiavellian Gaddafi Who are those editors. And you are an undisclosed paid editor according to your talk page. Doug Weller talk 10:30, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment As far as I can see the problem isn't Llll5032. I've just had to revert another load of edits by Machiavellian Gaddafi on Gavin McInnes. When someone's politics are consistently referred to as far-right, there are multiple sources for that, and the actual title (not the content) of the first source uses the words "far-right", then changing it to "conservative" is simply disruptive (especially when your edit summary says "Far right is a form of slander"). They also keep introducing unreliable sources. Yesterday I had to revert their changes because they were introducing red-flag language like "according to the mainstream media" into sections containing language they didn't like. I'd suggest they stop editing on the subject since they appear to be unable to maintain NPOV. Black Kite (talk) 10:45, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Doug Weller

I answered you on my talk page. As far as the two that ARE paid, two people indicated it in their talk pages, and I honestly didn't care enough to remember, as they had some type of box/badge saying so. That said, not all of the Llll5032 talk pages are complaints, so it shouldn't be too hard to find on your end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 10:45, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

You didn't answer me, you responded to User:Justlettersandnumbers saying you aren't paid, despite saying on Nov. 22 " I'm paid to make these edits, and losing 350+ characters after spending multiple hours writing it is unfortunate, to say the least." Doug Weller talk 10:59, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Minor correction, that statement was made on 26 or 27 November, depending on timezones. Hopefully the link is helpful. --Yamla (talk) 11:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Doug Weller

Yes, I did (read again, below)

I'm not paid or compensated, but rather contributing to the best of my knowledge. I have interest is certain areas, but this is just a hobby. That said, once I feel like I've reached the point where I COULD do this as a side job (I'm still fairly green), the first thing I'll do is fill out the form. Thanks! Alan C. Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk) 09:26, 9 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs)

@Machiavellian Gaddafi: Why did you write "I'm paid to make these edits" if you're now saying "I'm not paid or compensated"? Sam Walton (talk) 11:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Black Kite|Black Kite

Your reply is an example of some of what I'm talking about. You took a reliable source, that being the New York Times, didn't bother reading anything but the headline, and totally dismissed where McInnis stated that he is a fiscal conservative and libertarian. I feel like many of you don't bother reading the articles, and she's taking lazy way out and read headlines. If someone says that they identify with a certain political ideology, that's what they are. A journalist that probably met them for the first time that day doesn't trump what the person themselves identifies as. For example, seated interview and told someone you worked at a retail store, but in the headline they wrote that you didn't work. Who's correct? You are the content in this scenario, and the reporter is the relay. Am I wrong, @Doug Weller? Shouldn't a reliable source that clearly states within their article that McInnis identify as in the way he does be relevant? There seems to be a bigger issue here, and that extends beyond my original issue. No, I don't work for any of these people who I've edited, but I'm starting to think that maybe I should reach out to them in regards to what's happening here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 11:19, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• If someone says that they identify with a certain political ideology, that's what they are. Er, no. That is absolutely NOT how Wikipedia works, I'm afraid. If you do not understand how reliable sourcing works here, then you are definitely better off not editing biographies of living people. It is actually fine to say that McInnes claims to be a conservative, though - and look, that's exactly what it says in the lead paragraph. Black Kite (talk) 11:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@SamWalton9

It's an A-B conversation my friend—A and B. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 11:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I went over this talk where I said I was paid, and it looks like I made a typo. I often type via microphone, as I'm doing now, and sometimes things just don't come out the right way. As I said before, if I'm looking to get paid, I'll fill out the form. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 11:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I can't figure out what you were trying to say, it certainly makes sense as it is. Doug Weller talk 15:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Doug Weller

Is New York Times a reliable source? Do statements coming from the mouth of the person being interviewed in a New York Times be deemed as factual information? Should libertarians and other moderate types be labeled far right, when their counterparts are never labeled as far left? These are clear biases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 11:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oh dear. Anyway, I presume you are aware that the sentence Mcinnes (claims) that he is not far-right or a supporter of fascism, identifying as "a fiscal conservative and libertarian" sourced to the New York Times already exists in the lead paragraph? Black Kite (talk) 11:48, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Black Kite (talk)

Machiavellian Gaddafi, may have one valid point, if one looks at the contents of Category:Far-right politicians in the United States and Category:Far-left politicians in the United States, there is a huge imbalance. There are other possible explanations than Bias, however. — Jacona (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Right, but his personal identity that he relayed is more truthful that a reporters opinion. There's nothing in far-right politics that states anything even close to libertarian or fiscal conservative. Isn't our goal to be as factual as possible? I guess I'm going to have to find some more articles that support his identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 12:45, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• It is precisely because our goal is to be factual as possible, that we present the subject's own claims as precisely that - claims - when they are contradicted by multiple reliable sources. You can imagine the chaos that would ensue if we were required to use subject's own claims as the unambiguous truth - since they could claim absolutely anything about themselves. Black Kite (talk) 12:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Black Kite

This is becoming off topic and redundant, so I'll move this debate to the page's talk page. I'm sure we can all come to a happy and fair medium eventually. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiavellian Gaddafi (talk • contribs) 12:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• Just opening the thread for a PS: I have blocked Machiavellian Gaddafi indefinitely for undisclosed paid editing and not being here to help build an encyclopedia. Bishonen | tålk 09:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BLPvio by User:PhotogenicScientist on Hunter Biden laptop controversy after admin warning

PhotogenicScientist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After asking an admin for clarifcation, PhotogenicScientist was directly warned: "saying the laptop was Hunter's in Wikivoice is wrong and a BLP problem". Photogenic has now reinserted the unsourced contentious claim. Feoffer (talk) 18:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Attempting to remove an editor from a content dispute, isn't the best route to take. Would recommend this report be closed. GoodDay (talk) 18:44, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Concur with GoodDay here. I'm not saying PhotogenicScientist is right. I'm not saying Feoffer is right. I don't care about the content of the Hunter Biden laptop article at this point. I just want everyone to stop trying to play "gotcha" with people who disagree with them as though getting someone punished because they think something different from you is a good way to solve problems. Stop edit warring, stop trying to play "gotcha" with others, use the talk page etc. --Jayron32 19:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

A well attended RFC determined that language was acceptable. That is a clear demonstration, along with the closure review, that the community does not see this as blpvio. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Though the RFC was closed by a non-admin account, which is probably not a good way for a closure on such a controversial topic. Masem (t) 19:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

And yet there was no consensus to overturn at the review. The way to handle disagreement with a consensus that was upheld at review isn't to then bring an editor filtering the RFC to ANI. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Ignoring the RfC and the review upholding it at AN seems to be a far bigger issue than who closed it. This is an article that already has wiki-lawyering issues and now an admin is inserting themselves giving warnings for complying with the RfC while also placing doubt on it's validity. That's way outside the norms of this encyclopedia. Slywriter (talk) 20:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Masem is WP:INVOLVED, but contrary to the OP, I don't read his comment as giving anybody a "warning." He was asked his opinion and gave it. That he's an admin is totally irrelevant. Levivich (talk) 16:09, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• By my reading, the RFC did not endorse any specific wording; it was solely about the inclusion or exclusion of the word "alleged." At the very least, people reverting to one specific version with the argument that that has consensus need to slow down. --Aquillion (talk) 07:09, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Surely you agree that the edit complained about in the OP, which removed the single word "allegedly", is 100% supported by the RfC, and that editors should remove that word if it is reinstated. Levivich (talk) 07:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but by my reading the edit that sparked the current round of back-and-forth was the revert by Mr Ernie here (as he says below.) That edit absolutely did not reflect the RFC or any consensus reached on talk. Obviously a bold lead rewrite can be reverted for other reasons, but it's important to be clear on that point - edits like that are just all sides revert-warring over aspects of the lead that have no consensus behind them. Like I said on talk, my concern is that if that isn't answered then the RFC can become a Motte-and-bailey situation where the answer to a more narrow RFC question is used to support more sweeping conclusions than there is necessarily a consensus for. (More specifically, can we say X vs. should we say X in the first paragraph of the lead are different questions, and the RFC was very clearly written to ask only the first.) --Aquillion (talk) 07:19, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Why was it the revert that sparked the current round, and not the edit that was reverted? The outcome of the RfC is that Wikipedia says it's his laptop in wikivoice. We all know how to change that: make a subpage collecting all the best RS and what they say, and post it to the ongoing RFC. Levivich (talk) 07:30, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

No, the outcome of the RFC is that we cannot imply that it is not his laptop in wikivoice (ie. no saying "his alleged laptop" or anything comparable wording that would cast doubt on it.) That's very different from "we must state that it was his in the first paragraph of the lead." The latter is, obviously, a much stronger statement; given that the RFC for the weaker consensus to avoid implying it was not his laptop was already controversial, I don't think it's reasonable to assert that a consensus requiring that we state it was his laptop in wikivoice in the lead exists. That's the whole reason we're having further discussions for the exact wording; but people who insist that the RFC currently requires that we state that in the lead are mischaracterizing it. --Aquillion (talk) 08:40, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

What? I don't understand what you're writing. An RfC that comes to consensus to remove the word "allegedly" from "allegedly belonged to" is an RfC that comes to consensus to state "belonged to" in wikivoice. I really don't think this is even an arguable point. Levivich (talk) 14:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

An editor is being warned for following the outcome of an RfC? That's quite chilling. Slywriter (talk) 19:04, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

@Feoffer you seem to seriously misunderstand the role of admins. They aren't "super users" in any matter that comes to content - their opinions hold the same weight as anyone else's. The way admins differ is that they're able to wield special tools to enforce policy. Which is why I explicitly asked @Masem if it would be a violation of policy beforehand, and if there were any actionable roadblocks in place. And nothing in their response seemed to me to point to a bright-line "don't do this for policy reasons." PhotogenicScientist (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Feoffer, I am in disbelief that you opened this thread an hour after the last one (at AN) was withdrawn. And the OP is incredibly misleading. WP:Drop the stick. Levivich (talk) 22:34, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

You should have reported me for this. I'm the one who restored the page to the RFC consensus version - link. Can we please not do this? Mr Ernie (talk) 20:26, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The RFC was not about any one particular version, just about whether to use the word "alleged." You shouldn't revert-war back to one version in particular based on the argument that that one version has a consensus, since it does not. --Aquillion (talk) 07:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

That’s not how the majority of us have interpreted the close and subsequent clarifications. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with your restoration edit, Mr. Ernie. GoodDay (talk) 07:23, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not the smartest editor in the classroom. Therefore, I don't know what Feoffer is trying to accomplish 'here' or at the related page-in-question, anymore. GoodDay (talk) 22:43, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I came to this article as a reader, knowing nothing about the topic and having literally zero emotional investment in the topic.

Sentence 1 featured an unsourced claim that the device belonged to Biden, but Paragraph 2 included a sourced claim that the device might not belong to Biden.

I don't particularly care how that contradiction is resolved, but some resolution is needed -- it's an embarrassment to the project for us to be serving a seemingly-selfcontradictory lede to our readers.

I certainly understand admin fatigue over American politics -- if I came to this article with any preconceived opinions, I wouldn't bother the admin community with this matter. But the current article fails our readers.

While I wasn't part of the Summer 2022 RFC, the non-admin closer has already acknowledged it was a goodfaith badclose, so no one should be citing it as a consensus.

New readers just like me will continue to show up and complain about the article's lede until we can provide our readers with a lede that doesn't appear to contradict itself. Feoffer (talk) 08:27, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

What kind of nonsense is this? The RfC was closed. It was reviewed at AN and upheld. Any editor or admin who believes this RfC can be be ignored should be topic banned from the area until they acknowledge they will respect RfCs. Anything less is a disrespect to the processes that keep this encyclopedia running. Slywriter (talk) 14:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The nonadmin closer has acknowledged it was a bad close. Feoffer (talk) 06:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

You continue to falsely claim it's "unsourced". There are sources cited in the body. Levivich (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

BLP requires inline-citation, and a review of RSes shows probabilistic language remains the norm. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, and I've done my best to squeak in a constructive way, I'm not going to keep harping on it. But I can promise new editors will continue to show up to complain about the article quality until the apparently self-contradictory lede issue is resolved one way or the other. Feoffer (talk) 06:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Again, recommend this report be closed. It's not accomplishing whatever it was set out to do. GoodDay (talk) 06:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

When paragraph 2 seems to contradict sentence 1 of a BLP, it's a problem that requires the attention of admins. I don't care which way it's resolved, but a resolution is needed. If there's really a consensus for sentence 1, then delete the contradiction in paragraph 2! I'm not a squeaky wheel by nature, I don't care at all whether the laptop is Biden's or not -- I just want to be able to go to Wikipedia and read a consistent story. Right now, the article's wikivoice is schizophrenic -- proclaimin a fact in sentence 1 only to turn around and deny it in paragraph 2. That's a problem, and no amount of handwaving will stem the tide of folks coming to demand a better article that presents a consistent narrative. Feoffer (talk) 07:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The RfC was valid, closed and affirmed at AN. Any confusion in the article is resolved by following the RfCs results. It's not resolved by wiki-lawyering methods to ignore a valid RfC. Slywriter (talk) 15:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Per OP, the underlying issue is not black and white. Instead of accusing OP of wikilawyering, it would be helpful to respond (or not) to OP's detailed concern and rebut it. All views have been aired here at least once. SPECIFICO talk 15:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

It is 100% clear that you and others are attempting to contravene an RfC by any method possible. The rest is useless wiki-lawyering to further the effort to ignore the RfC and does not deserve a response as ignoring an RfC is the single behavioral issue that should be addressed. Slywriter (talk) 15:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The non-admin closer has already acknowledged the close was in error: there is a de facto consensus that my closure did not correctly reflect the community's sentiments". To the eyes of a new reader with no strong feelings about the topic, paragraph 2 seems to disprove sentence 1. I wasn't the first to point this out, I won't be the last. New people will keep showing up to point this out until it's solved.Feoffer (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Their opinion is irrelevant as the community decided not to overturn the close of the RfC at AN. Any inconsistencies in the article are because of relentless, tendentious, and disruptive editing by those who disagree with the close. So it is solved and anyone claiming otherwise is willfully going against community consensus because they don't like it.Slywriter (talk) 19:35, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I would agree with Slywriter here. I would also ask that admins block users Feoffer and JzG who continue to revert to the prior version before the RfC while its being discussed here and on the article talk page. --Malerooster (talk) 03:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, Feoffer keeps claiming to be neutral about the topic. I'm not getting that impression. GoodDay (talk) 03:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Can we please have some admin support at this article? We have RFC consensus for a wording that editors like Feoffer and JzG continue to ignore. We are begging for help here. Mr Ernie (talk) 03:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Didn't this whole happen two years ago? I remember it was on the news a couple of years ago during the election: how is there even anything left to argue about? I feel like there is some threshold at which it becomes a hindrance for the rest of the project. jp×g 11:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps the community would like to at least answer why JzG should be editing in an area where they expresses opinion such as Special:Diff/1127019825 and Special:Diff/1127019942 which have no place on any Talk page, much less an AP2 topic. Slywriter (talk) 13:12, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Comments like that do not help in any way. Admins seem to be going out of their way to avoid this topic, and I don't really blame them. Unfortunately it has led to this massive time sink we've had to deal with the last 3 months. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:37, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

As well as edit-warring against consensus Special:Diff/1127018647 and Special:Diff/1126877504. Slywriter (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The page is under 1RR discretionary sanctions, which JzG has breached. He should be reported to WP:AE. -- GoodDay (talk) 14:17, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

@jpxg: There's renewed attention to the article for various reasons. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Because it's still a political battleground. One side thinks it was a nothingburger, and the other is still claiming it's Proof™ that the current administration is corrupt & should be hauled to jail. It's the new "But her emails" / Benghazi for the times. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:41, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I think that analysis is quite astute, this is indeed the "but her emails" of this election cycle. And so much of the wikidebate about this article, and so much of the article, focuses on a nonissue, whether or not the laptop belonged to him, and as a result the article fails to present a truly NPOV summary of the sources. An NPOV summary of the sources is: Hunter Biden's laptop has nothing incriminating on it. But that gets lost amidst all the argument and edit warring about whether "Hunter Biden's laptop" means the same thing as "a laptop belonging to Hunter Biden", or whether "allegedly" means the same as "purportedly" or "claiming to be". Some of us have been missing forests for trees and making truly foolish arguments. Levivich (talk) 18:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

If anyone had the stomach to review the talk page over the past 2+ months, they would find the valid arguments along these lines, but buried under a lot of nonsense. To put it in a nutshell, it's not really even a controversy any more than Benghazi, e.g. is a controversy. It's a false allegation about the contents of the hard drive and various RS reports that investigated the allegation about the files and found nothing there. The problem, however, with "HB's laptop" is that it frames the narrative in such a way as to give undue unsupported weight to the claims that the files themselves are all authentic original HB files. RS don't say they know whether that is true. SPECIFICO talk 19:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Anti-Ukrainian conspiracy theory spread by Keith-264

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Keith-264 is peppering their comments with false, harmful anti-Ukrainian conspiracy theories.

• As for Kherson, it's in Ukraine which has been a US vassal state since the coup of 2014 at the latest; the Russian withdrawal is anything but a liberation.[8]
• It isn't an allegation, it's a description of the truth. Ask Victoria Nuland.[9]

Statements that Ukraine is a “vassal state” or “external control” are false.[10][11][12][13]

These conspiracy theories are also harmful. Delegitimization of Ukraine as a state and a nation is part of the Russian Federation’s propaganda. See, e.g., Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Delegitimization of Ukraine as a nation and state. Tropes of “Ukraine is under external control by the US,” and such, are part of denial of the existence of Ukrainians and the right of Ukraine to exist, and allegations that Ukrainians are really Russians under US control, which have been cited as elements of incitement to genocide by the Russian government.[14]

Comments legitimizing Russian conquest of Ukraine as “liberation” over the background of a war of aggression that has seen millions suffer, killed tens of thousands, and could get worse before it gets better are also encouragement and glorification of mass violence.

Editors should not feel free to casually indulge in what can be construed as hate speech. The rest of us should not be exposed to it. The remarks should be removed.  —Michael Z. 19:04, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Keith-264 is wrong, but I don't think that being wrong is necessarily equivalent to hate speech. We need to not dilute the severity of what hate speech is by categorizing everything someone says that is wrong (even really wrong, as pretty much everything you note that Keith-264 said above is really wrong) as "hate speech". People are generally given latitude to argue on talk pages, even to argue clearly incorrect things, on talk pages, so long as they otherwise obey WP:TPG and don't extend into edit warring in article text, bludgeoning discussions, etc. I want to make clear, that Keith-264's statements are 100% wrong on these matters, I don't agree with anything they are saying. But I also don't think it rises to the level of hate speech per WP:HID. --Jayron32 19:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I can see Jayron32's point, and agree that there are lots of cases where being wrong/ignorant/unpleasant is not a policy violation. In this case, though, I think Michael is correct. After nine months of Russian aggression, including numerous massacres of Ukrainian civilians, bombardment of Ukrainian cities, millions of Ukrainians made refugees, the vile propaganda lies Keith-264 spread to justify these war crimes certainly seem to not only equal but surpass most cases of hate speech. Jeppiz (talk) 19:21, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

It implies support, or at the very least a tacit acceptance, of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. If it's not hate speech, then it's something of equal severity. Regardless, it's highly inappropriate. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The comments were made in a discussion about content and style related to the article 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and directed specifically to editing within the subject area. This article is subject to WP:AC/DS (Eastern Europe and the Baltics, broadly construed) and WP:GS/RUSUKR.  —Michael Z. 20:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make it hate speech. Vassal state: "A vassal state is any state that has a mutual obligation to a superior state or empire". The assertion here (provocatively stated) is not that Ukraine is not a legitimate or independent state but that it has become dependent on US support. That is a defensive position. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

No, that is an incorrect interpretation, not only of the specific anti-Ukrainian propaganda libel, but even of your own quoted definition.

Why debate whether it’s technically “hate speech”? Instead please apply disciplinary action on an editor that has committed speech that several of us see as wrong, inappropriate, and possibly hate speech in a subject area under discretionary sanctions? It violates behaviour guidelines in a zero-tolerance subject area.  —Michael Z. 20:52, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

This is political harassment of the most flagrant nature. I am condemned by a judge, jury and executioners ("several of us") for having a different opinion of what constitutes facts. Keith-264 (talk) 21:13, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't see that there is any case here. Mzajac essentially wants to censor a user with whom he has a factual disagreement. One may agree or disagree with Keith-264's statement, but Mzajac's own comment in the same thread trying to pin Keith-264 with "genocide incitement" is arguably much less constructive for the sake of the debate. I don't see, at least anywhere cited or linked above, that Keith-264 would have talked about the "Russian conquest of Ukraine as “liberation”". Rather seems he had questioned the use of the loaded term 'Liberation' for the article title 'Liberation of Kherson', which is a pretty legit concern. 'Liberation' and 'Occupation' are both problematic terms in armed conflicts, because liberation for some means occupation for others and vice versa. --Soman (talk) 22:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• It's dumb, it's propagandist, but not "hate speech," which by labeling as such actually risks the very sanctions you wish seen imposed on him, Mzajac *** During the Yom Kippur War, after the US replaced the French as Israel's main weapons giver, Israel would expend all of its ammo during the day to virtual depletion, then the two opposing sides would take a few hrs breather...

During that breather, American C-130 Hercules would land with ordinates, Israel would re-arm, and they'd all have another go at it. For days and days. Had those planes stopped landing, Israel would be done and/or nukes. I think Ukraine is in a better position than Israel was if the US+adjecents were to halt the pipeline for, say, a day or two or weeks (but and/or nukes, again).

Obviously, like many of its neighbors, Ukraine switched from Russia's orbit to an American one (in 2014, when Yanukovych was overthrown). I would call it an imperialist-dependent country, like Israel and many other countries are today, but mind you, that's commie speak. In centrist terminology, I suppose one could call Ukraine a buffer or even client state — though, admittedly, calling it that could be seen as bad for morale, especially when Russian desperation leads them to conduct warfare through war crimes. But regardless, the point is that calling it a vassal state is archaic, irrelevant, and as mentioned, just plain stupid (and a bit disconcerting). But it isn't a "hate crime," which is a different animal altogether. El_C 22:43, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree but as a side note, it doesn't really sound centrist or mainstream based on the RS I read, to call Ukraine a client state - that is what Tucker Carlson calls it[15][16] I believe line is that Ukraine is a flawed but democratic state that happens to be getting a lot of aid from the United States, France, etc., in what might reasonably be called a proxy conflict. Ukraine has applied to join EU and NATO IIRC, and most Ukrainians expect their country to join last I heard. Andre🚐 22:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Well, Tucker is pro-Putin, just like his buddy Kanye, so obviously he'd go for the reverse (i.e. a client rather than a buffer state ←reflected on that page btw). But democracy is an amorphic thing, I don't really play with that. And speaking of which, wouldn't I be arrested in Ukraine for my political beliefs? Didn't they outlaw being a commie? I might be thinking of a different country, though. Either way, not a vassal state, not hate speech — disputants need to dial it back. El_C 23:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine is not a flawed democracy; the United States is a flawed democracy. See Democracy Index. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Neither country is a democracy, Ukraine ceased to be one after the putsch in 2014 and the US (like Britain) has never been one, they're oligarchic republics. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:42, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, so we see where you're coming from, and why you have trouble making NPOV edits. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't have oligarchs. We have benevolent billionaires. Oligarchs are what the other countries have. Huge difference, very key to remember. Parabolist (talk) 12:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I think you put that rather well. Keith-264 (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The "benevolent billionaires" can be democratically removed - dictatorial oligarchs where free speech has been killed off, not so much. DeCausa (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Pushing fringe conspiracy theories in discussions is disruptive. When one pushes them to make Russian war crimes sound acceptable in discussions regarding articles subject to discretionary sanctions with impunity, then their disruptiveness is out of control. When like-minded fringe figures pop out of the woodwork and try to normalize their opinions in a disciplinary discussion, there is evidence of a systemic problem in Wikipedia administration.  —Michael Z. 15:54, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Mzajac, in fairness, you are one of the few admins I've ever WP:TBAN'd (on Kyiv, now expired), a sanction imposed long before the Russian invasion (btw, there are many, though not me, who think an admin should not remain one with discretionary sanctions on their record). So, I'd submit that your conduct when it comes to Ukraine-anything is and has been subpar. This isn't to excuse Keith-264's nonsense (i.e. the Viceroy is busy), but it is a double-edged sword nevertheless. El_C 17:22, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Nice non-accusation accusation, @El C. Is this just innuendo, or are you actually accusing me of something now?  —Michael Z. 17:59, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

It's not innuendo, Mzajac, these are plain facts. Which you should probably reflect on rather deflect from. El_C 18:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Is my two-year-old TBAN intended to be an albatross to be carried around my neck forever? If you’re going to bring it up along with an inappropriate short political essays about Ukraine, and politically biased disinformation (“wouldn’t I be arrested in Ukraine for my political beliefs”: no), perhaps I should appeal it.  —Michael Z. 18:26, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

As I said, I might be thinking of a different country — but I just looked and Ukraine did outlaw the Communist Party,[17] so maybe that was it? Anyway, you wanna appeal a sanction that had consensus at WP:AE (I only closed that complaint, as I was doing with 80 percent of all AE reports for like a year), and more importantly, a sanction that had already expired? Sure, go for it. Zero reflection, still, I see. Oh well. El_C 18:39, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Tendentious labelling, self-serving inferences and sloganeering helps no-one. I'm bored with the name-calling from people who are supposed to set a good example so I grant everyone else the last word. Bye. Keith-264 (talk) 17:43, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

@Keith-264 is repeating another falsehood about Ukraine, its democracy, and a juicy Germanic-sounding “putsch.”

Putin’s pal Yanukovych brought Ukraine’s Democracy Index rating down from 6.30 (flawed democracy) to 5.94 (hybrid régime) in 2011, the year after he was elected. The rating dropped every year he was in office, hitting a low of 5.42 in 2014, when he passed unconstitutional “dictatorship laws,” presiding over the murder of 100 protestors, and was removed from office by the elected parliament with his own party members holding the deciding majority. It has been higher ever since. In 2021 Ukraine scored poorly in DI’s functioning of government category (where DI cites the effect of “direct military threat” from Russia), but a healthy 8.25 in electoral process and pluralism and a decent 6.67 in political participation.

Russia, controlled by a small group of siloviki since the end of the twentieth century is an oligarchy. The rich so-called oligarkhy don’t control government in either Ukraine nor in Russia.

Literally tendentious labelling, self-serving inferences, and sloganeering. Actually trying to distract from his behaviour by turning this into an argument about content, but his argument is based on disinfo. Please don’t fall into that vortex.  —Michael Z. 17:56, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Question

Is this a subject under discretionary sanctions? If so, why has Keith-264 not already been blocked, if only on the basis of his behavior in this discussion? Is someone going to have to propose a community ban to get anything done about this disruptive editor? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:34, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, yes it is: WP:ARBEE. But someone? You are someone, BMK. But "block" rather than a WP:TBAN, why? Also, maybe quote their offending comment/s directly...? There's a lot of text in this thread. So try to be specific, even if a little bit. But probably community ban, unless a clearer report is filed at WP:AE. Because this discussion seems too disorganized at this point.

But proving hate speech, as the OP (Michael) had claimed, was rejected by all reviewing admins who had commented here. And my point was that if there was consensus at WP:AE to TBAN him back before the Russian invasion, one could only imagine how fraught it might be now when, as I mention, Russian desperation leads them to conduct warfare through war crimes.

So, strive for balance, even and especially when it's uncomfortable. Even and especially as most of us, myself included, support the people of Ukraine against Russian atrocities. To expand more on your question: ARBEE does cover Russia and Ukraine, the Baltics, the Balkans (maybe also WP:ARBMAC, who can tell?), all of Eastern Europe, and some of Central Europe. HTH. El_C 20:03, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree, hate speech is a non-starter. And yes, I am someone, but there are many someones editing Wikipedia, and I am far from the most beloved of them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:06, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm someone else! El_C 20:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

LOL! Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:40, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't see any past DS warnings for Keith on their talk page, and looking through their recent contributions, I don't even see any activity related to the Russo-Ukraine War other than the brief aside at a MOS guideline discussion that Michael has brought here, so procedurally there is no basis for an admin to issue a DS ban. In the absence of concrete diffs showing how their behavior in that discussion was consistently tendentious, I'm disinclined to consider a community ban. Some of Keith's comments about politics in this discussion would be problematic to insert directly into an article, but I'm not seeing anything so out of line that it would preclude the ability to contribute constructively (and pretty much all of them are in direct response to other editors making similar statements). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:55, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I think the real question should be: Will this come to any sort of productive end? Could we just close this, monitor them, and send them back here to the WP:HAPPYPLACE if they cause any trouble? Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 10:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

At the very least some kind of warning needs to be issued. Keith's comments are reflects of Russian propaganda as Michael has said and it is obvious to me how their comments can be offending to the Ukrainian people. I really don't understand why a political discussion here was necessary, this user questions that the liberation of an ethnically Ukrainian city illegally occupied by a foreign army with dozens of war crimes to its name is a liberation. They also question the independence of a sovereign state and call a popular movement sparked by the murder of civilians a "coup". Would we also allow someone to get away with calling the Warsaw Uprising a "coup" against Nazi Germany?

Personally, I don't want to see these kinds of comments on any talk page nor do I think they are capable of contributing anything productive to any discussion at all. And I find it scandalous that they are seemingly going to be tolerated on Wikipedia. Super Ψ Dro 12:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Ironically, your own comparison between the Revolution of Dignity and the Warsaw Uprising goes to show that inflammatory rhetoric works both ways. Just like with Michael's claim of hate speech or Keith's vassal state. So, how about we do the following: warning to both, but also to you, Super Dromaeosaurus. Let's not Godwin it up, even when it's hard. Even when the Azov Regiment and Wagner Group have been bizarrely a thing during this conflict. I'll close this report momentarily. El_C 15:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:OCCPlaza

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Constant personal attacks against Randy Kryn. See the talk page of the user, its history, and these diffs. 1 2 3 (Article history here) 4 (Article history here) 5 (Article history here) 6 7 (Article history here) 8 (Article history here) 9 (Article history here) 10 (Article history here) 11 (Article history here) There's more than this. Check user contribs for more info. Sounds like WP:HOUNDING. — B. L. I. R. 20:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Come on folks, just let this master sockmaster back on again. He's not going away and he's probably rightfully pissed because he loves editing Wikipedia and was originally indeffed for things which at most should have deserved a week's block. Keeping him blocked is not only hurting the encyclopedia but is hurting me and my editing, which is not cool either way (and is there a way to turn off this new talk page thing where the talk page is suggesting words? Whoever thought that one up should be indeffed, ha!). Can't there at least be a subpage set up where he's allowed to talk and give suggestions for pages he can't edit? Randy Kryn (talk) 21:30, 9 December 2022‎ (UTC)

Certainly not. The user is community banned ([18]) and has continued their harassment. Describing measures against their abuse, instead of the abuse itself, as "hurting" is a form of victim blaming. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, Randy Kryn, looks like you'll just have to take one for the team. EEng 00:06, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for linking to that, I had stopped reading it after awhile and missed the ping where he'd asked me, in very kind words, to step in and try to mediate between two language sets. Up to that point the discussion itself was so wall of texty that it was difficult to keep up. I'd assumed that he'd get a one week or month ban, and so did he, and had made sincere offers of trying to learn about wall of texts (which you are in right now). A week or month seemed about right for the infractions, and I stopped reading the discussion. Too many edits at once and wall of texts aplenty, so few took the time to read it. And on a reading of it now I only skimmed MrBeast's responses, way too wall of texty. I can see the frustration on both sides. Yeah, a month would have done it, with some understandings and learning curve thrown in. I assumed that's where it was heading. But just now I noticed it went from that language - "a week", or "a month" - and then the piling on began. No holding that back, the piling on for past wrongs flowed like water. I missed all of that at the time, and never expected the thing to escalate. Why? Not having had previous dealings with him, I didn't know about the past wall of texts conflicts, so took the result as a given - a week or a month ban. Well deserved, overwhelming a whole team of editors at such a major article as United States page, like a bull in a china shop with over 500 edits (not allowing space for page regulars to just take it all in a bit at a time), although, and this is the interesting part, the bull was not breaking much china along the way. I've never checked those edits but they weren't reverted in masse until they were, so most may have been okay edits. I originally reverted one because he had offered a revert in his edit summary, and he agreed on the reasoning, and I thought that was a nice talk but did not keep close track of the page edits or talk discussions after that. I don't regularly edit and have never page watched United States. This is wall of text now, but I can tell you, in the past few months he has learned to keep comments shorter. My entire point is that the indef ban seems to have been given for past interactions and editing style in past discussions, and not for the issues being addressed at the beginning of what seemed a simple discussion. On reading it now, the "one week" and "one month" language was soon lost (hopefully not because I missed a ping), and it quickly turns and reads like a kick him when he's down event. Way too much punishment for his edits at the United States article and its talk page, and he's punished me for everything because he may have been counting on me to stem the tide. Allowing him a re-hearing on just the original charges would be fair, because of WP:PILEON (which doesn't exist but describes what occurred here). Randy Kryn (talk) 00:41, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

TL;DNR. YSKB. WTKWWGOBMEGO. OW. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:30, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

TL;DNR sums up much of why MrBeast was banned. When a week or two ban would have fairly handled the situation, what happened instead was an indef, and that's where it became unfair. Indefs during a civil polite discussion should be hard to come by, not the easy way out. He wrote in a series of long breaths during the discussion, but from what I read they were polite TL;DNR's. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Those are mighty big assumptions you're carrying around. Bottom line is: the community banned them. They should find another hobby. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:48, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Greeks

Need some blocks. Was involved accidentally trying to view differences. Crazy amount of back and forth. Moxy- 23:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry... what does Was involved accidentally trying to view differences mean? EEng 00:08, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

See link above...and edit summary. Moxy- 00:09, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• I've fully protected it and informed both editors that they should now discuss on the talk page (and if the edit-warring restarts after the FP expires, they'll be blocked). Black Kite (talk) 23:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you° Moxy- 00:04, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I thought at first glance that this might be an interesting discussion about Greek letter organizations on US university campuses. But no. Just more endless Eastern Europe nationalistic bickering. How tedious. Cullen328 (talk) 07:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The only thing that I can think of that is more tedious than nationalistic bickering is some students' desire to join sororities and fraternities. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

You don't follow professional wrestling? Narky Blert (talk) 10:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Wilton Sampaio

Please protect Wilton Sampaio - referee in the current England-France football match. Article is being used as a football. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:42, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

It is already protected, The last vandal was autoconfirmed, if they continue they are going to be blocked without further warnings. Ymblanter (talk) 19:45, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Brings out the best in people, doesn't it? I blocked several stupid Francophobic usernames that were created soon after the match ended. Bishonen | tålk 05:37, 11 December 2022 (UTC).

I take it we lost. Nothing new. - Roxy the dog 05:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

That depends who "we" are. England lost. The ITV commentators showed their usual bias towards the referee, claiming that every disputed decision should have gone England's way, so are probably partially responsible for what happened here. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

France were just playing better.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:15, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Agree to disagree on that one. At least it wasn't ARG-NED ref! Kingsif (talk) 22:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see, Phil, how boring. I didn't know that; I was watching some pretty neutral coverage in a different country. Fans expressing their feelings by creating accounts on the lines of Frenchtwats - and without even using them for any editing! — still seems extravagantly stupid. Harrykane123 did edit, by contrast — vandalism, of course ("we were robbed") — and I didn't bother with the usual softblock for name representing a well-known person... Bishonen | tålk 09:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC).

"Were?" "Wuz", surely. Narky Blert (talk) 10:43, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

User:BaldiBasicsFan and User:MariaSantanaSilva on User talk:BaldiBasicsFan

I had removed some talk page discussions from User talk:BaldiBasicsFan because I have concerns about them potentially violating Wikipedia policies:

• [19] - WP:GRAVEDANCING
• [20] & [21] - WP:BLP(?), WP:NOTSCANDAL, WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK

I am mainly bringing this here to determine if there are any violations of the cited policies. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 23:00, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I would definitely say the first one is GRAVEDANCING and comes off as extremely rude. THe other 2 seem like discussion regarding an article but I'm not entirely sure. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 23:04, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I guess my question is why did you go straight to AN/I instead of dropping a message on their talk page about it? Maybe dropping them a {{Uw-socialnetwork}} or some sort of nicely worded message to the effect of "you should read WP:GRAVEDANCING?" This really doesn't look like a chronic, intractable behavioral problem if nobody's told them to stop before. (Though the reference to Qualitipedia/reception wikis concerns me, as those are generally full of bad content.) casualdejekyll 23:25, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, both users contributed to Terrible Shows & Episodes Wiki before Miraheze closed them following an RfC to dissolve Qualitipedia. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 23:55, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Wait Miraheze does RFCs? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 23:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes. They decided to ban wikis that use opinions such as Terrible TV Shows, etc. CartoonnewsCP (talk) 06:29, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

MESSAGE FROM BALDI: For your concern, this is my thoughts on what I think of this issue. For the Crec issue, I understand why you removed that message because of GRAVEDANCING, but as for the Silva situation, why even just do a report here instead of a message on my talk page like what another user said? Yes the sources are not reliable and I don’t wanna add unreliable sources in the first place, but Silva did give me questions I found interesting. Also I completely lost interest in Qualitipedia when it closed. Yes Blaze Miraheze does do RFCs. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 00:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with Baldi, we don't want to add unreliable and unverified sources, given I just wanted to help to add reliable and confirmed sources at the pages and I used to edit at Qualitipedia, but I stopped due to QP's closure (mainly the wikis' founder, Grust was not happy with the wikis ended up, mainly with the wikis themselves having many problems), for a person like me who dislikes unconfirmed sources. MariaSantanaSilva (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

It never occurred to me that I could warn you for this. Also, I wanted admins' perspectives on this situation. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 00:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

If you thought the conversations were a problem, perhaps discussing it with Baldi would have sufficed. Schazjmd (talk) 00:20, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• Erm. Could someone explain to me when GRAVEDANCING became a policy -- hint: it is an essay -- or a valid ground to redact someone's comment from his own talk page, which is not your own? Yes, gravedancing is rude, but if you dared to redact my own comment from my own talk page for just about any reason short of revdel country, I would be ballistic. What the pluperfect hell? Ravenswing 02:06, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  This is not constructive. Essays can describe why certain kinds of edits are disruptive and be referenced as reasons for blocks under the broad category of disruptive editing. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 14:07, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  You can "reference" whatever the heck you want for whatever reason you choose, but that still doesn't validate an essay, nor provide reasons for refactoring someone else's comments on their own talk page, nor constitute non-specious grounds for an ANI complaint. Ravenswing 16:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  I think you are using this ANI thread to have an argument about something that isn't relevant or necessary to resolve the issue raised here. I will now withdraw, but I would request you reconsider your approach to this particular discussion. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 17:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I’ll have you know that I got blocked for GRAVEDANCING one time. Look at my block log for proof. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 03:47, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, nice try. What you were blocked for was gravedancing on someone else's talk page, after being warned to stop, and after you were previously blocked for harassing the same editor by way of (funny that) repeatedly reverting him on his own talk page. It seems this is a recurring problem with you. Ravenswing 17:01, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Can we not do this? The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 22:27, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@The Grand Delusion - @Ravenswing brings up a completely valid point: what you brought Baldi here for is meaningfully different from what you got blocked for. I think we should move to closing this discussion, because it's pretty clear that if Baldi did break any policies, which it's currently unclear if they did or not, they aren't going to get blocked or anything other than maybe getting a warning. Nothing about this report was an urgent incident or chronic, intractable behavioral problems, and the whole situation could have been solved with a friendly talk page message. casualdejekyll 22:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps I should explain a little of how ANI works, TGD. If you file a complaint, your own actions and record are subject to just as much scrutiny ... especially (as in this case) where those actions and omissions of yours appear to be more disruptive than the ones about which you complained. If you invite editors to look at your block log, you ought not be surprised when they actually do so, and examine what happened.

What you do not get to do is declare anything out of bounds to our scrutiny, to exempt yourself from it, or say "Can we not do this?" upon realizing that you've shot yourself in the foot. Ravenswing 01:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

It was more the attitude you expressed when you made that comment, and not the statement itself. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 01:26, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

You know what I find hilarious about this issue? The messages you reported were from months ago. LOL! BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 02:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Please refrain from making these kinds of remarks. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 03:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I concur. That sounds rather rude. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 03:12, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Ravenswing Yes. Baldi did not break any policies. The above user was blocked for doing it on someone else's page. Baldi was simply just responding. CartoonnewsCP (talk) 21:15, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The Grand Delusion Baldi never made those discussions. They simply were just responding to those users who made them. So why are you making the thread about them, when instead you should ping the ones who started those threads, such as Logosfuture2002. They are the one violating the above, not Baldi. CartoonnewsCP (talk) 06:29, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

CartoonnewsCP "Good because he was NOT building an encyclopedia." If that response doesn't sound like gravedancing as well, I don't know what does. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 22:30, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Logos is possibly WP:NOTHERE, though I hadn't looked at their contributions, not Baldi. CartoonnewsCP (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

More Disruptive editing and trolling by IP user who has already had their block upgraded multiple times.

This is a follow-up to [ANI report] from August 16, 2022 that resulted in User:24.21.161.89's IP being blocked by Ponyo for "blatant trolling." The IP user's unblock request was declined by Deepfriedvodka on August 16.* Another unblock request was denied on August 18 resulting in the block being upgraded to three months by Yamla on August 18.

• On October 26, 2022, the IP user attempted to communicate with Yamla again but instead of responding to the question blanked the page deleting public front page evidence of the warnings and blocks.
• The user made only one more edit yesterday (December 9), changing the phrase "same sex" to sodomy on Respect for Marriage Act. This triggered a final warning on their user page from Wretchskull which brought it to my watchlist's attention.
• At that point, I brought it back to Yamla's attention, who decided to only block the user for six months for these reasons: Given the WP:LOUTSOCK and your edit, above, I have blocked this IP address from anonymous editing for six months. You are welcome to edit while signed in to your account, but you should expect a block on that account, too. WP:GAB explains how to contest your block. They appear to be a sockpuppet, as well, but I'll let Yamla speak to that.

• That was yesterday, and now today the user has continued to anonymously edit on their own talk page here and here making WP:PERSONALATTACKS, WP:BADGERing and casting WP:ASPERSIONS against me byfalsely and maliciously accusing me of "wiki-stalking" and "sniping" at them from a distance by posting warnings, AN/I notices and "hateful" reports. The IP user was warned 5 times by other editors before the first ANI report by me was made and has never stopped making hateful anti-LGBT and anti-Black edits on pages like Coprophagia, The Book of Mormon, Watermelon Stereotype and Killing of Jayland Walker.

My question at this point is when will it be acceptable for the total WP:SBAN that I sought for in the first ANI report be a reasonable decision for an administrator with that authority to finally consider?

I would also like to respectfully request that the last two personal attacks - here and here - against my character accusing me of crimes be deleted from the record completely. Kire1975 (talk) 03:52, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

"but instead of responding to the question blanked the page deleting public evidence of the warnings and blocks." just figured I'd clarify that that's not what blanking does. The evidence is still public, just in the page history. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 04:11, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I think we are at the point of WP:SBAN now. That's complicated a bit by this IP address belonging to a registered user, but one I can't name (and haven't named) due to checkuser privacy policy. Still, we could SBAN and I could subsequently extend that to the account with template:checkuserblock-account if I catch them violating it there. --Yamla (talk) 09:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Add this edit to the list of false malicious personal attacks/accusations of crime that I respectfully asked to be deleted from the public record completely. Kire1975 (talk) 02:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Nikolai Boyanov

Nikolai Boyanov (talk · contribs)

Nikolai has been continously adding unsourced materials to various articles including BLP ones in violations of WP:BLP and/or WP:VERIFY despite being warned multiple times by me and other editors, and also getting blocked for the same disruptive behaviour last month on 9 November, clearly Nikolai couldn't be bothered (WP:IDHT) to comply with our guidelines and policies especially WP:VERIFY. Also noting that majority of their edits were made on desktop (noting the lack of tags in their edits) hence not because of WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU.

Here are 10 edits made on various articles since Nikolai was unblocked.[22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31] There are more available via Nikolai's contribs, if required, I can help to provide them also. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 07:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

On a quick skim through the editing history I can't find any evidence that Nikolai Boyanov has every edited a talk or user talk page. This is concerning. Maybe a partial block from article space would be in order until this editor decides to start communicating? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:25, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm sceptical that partial block from mainspace would even work because I doubt that Nikolai is unaware of the warnings to being with as they had previously posted on my talk page that they're aware of the messages as seen here and here. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:38, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Jai Vizag - NOTHERE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Jai Vizag (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The user is a clear case of WP:NOTHERE. BLP violation [32], incorrect edit summaries (almost all the time), disruptive editing, factually incorrect additions [33] [34] [35] [36], etc. Requesting an indef to prevent further disruption — DaxServer (t · m · c) 09:35, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• It's a sock of blocked User:VGK Andhra as well. I also found User:VGK Vizag. Indeffed both of them, and I've semi-protected Andhra Pradesh as well since it seems to be their main target. Black Kite (talk) 10:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just block the /64 (again)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2001:4450:8398:4100:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This editor was reported about a week ago (refer there for further context), and was blocked for a week. They have immediately returned to their previous disruption following the expiry of the block. It would probably be safe to block this /64 for a month, as it seems to be fairly static at that level. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 10:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• Since it's a single user and the IP range is persistent, I've blocked it for 3 months. Black Kite (talk) 10:47, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:The middle e

• The middle e (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The account is not that old yet after a few edits has gone on to start and create AfD's. (Special:Contributions/The middle e) This is not normal behaviour for a new account. This feels like someone is socking here. Can an admin have a look. Regards, Govvy (talk) 10:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Nor is adding {{DISPLAYTITLE:User:The <sup>m</sup>iddle <sup>e</sup>}} to their userpage a typical new editor behaviour. Either they aren't too worried as they haven't got any skeletons in the closet anyway, or they're trying to make it obvious. I hope it's the first one. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 11:14, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Is tagging users in ANI and questioning them on their talk page appropriate? I thought sockpuppetry was illegitimate use of multiple accounts, the user doesn't seem to have done anything to arouse suspicion that this is the case, except for being competent. JeffUK (talk) 13:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@JeffUK: When mentioning someone here it clearly says to add a notice to their talk page. I didn't see any other relatable accounts to run an SPI. That's why you post a possible WP:DUCK sighting here!! :/ Govvy (talk) 16:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I thought I knew who that was, but I was wrong. That doesn't happen so often.  Confirmed to User:Gaois, User:X00y, User:Fingoal, User:Ihearthurling, and User:Litelad. Would be nice if one of them could explain this. There's a lot of overlap. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, the account is going cold like it's done a runner. @NinjaRobotPirate: Maybe they got scared off?? Govvy (talk) 09:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, sometimes it happens. You ask what's up, and you get dead air. If nobody responds after a while, I guess we can look at it more closely. Sometimes people accept their own drafts or vote multiple times using socks, but I didn't see any of that in a cursory skim over the edits. If there isn't anything like that, I don't understand why one of the accounts wouldn't just say, "Oops, my bad, yeah, those are all my accounts." NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• It's not my account. I've never seen the account before. And it's a lot to take in and then try to respond. I haven't voted multiple times on anything. I rarely even vote once on anything. I don't know how to explain cases of creating the wrong AfD's mentioned above. I'm not involved at AfD. --Gaois (talk) 20:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• These are different editing interests too, unless every sport is the same interest. I'm not even watching the World Cup. --Gaois (talk) 20:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

TheVHSArtist

• TheVHSArtist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

TheVHSArtist is edit warring in South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut to remove citations and restore unsourced content: Special:Diff/1126824476, Special:Diff/1126827434. Can an uninvolved admin please block him? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:29, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I personally do not see what the issue is here - it’s common knowledge that the film the article is about is an adult musical movie. Last time I checked, the lead is supposed to summarize an article, and the edits made to the lead fail to do it. Information in sections of the article reveals it as such, and the lead it meant to summarize the points made below. By removing the points, the lead does not adequately summarize it. I intended to keep the AFI source, but to include the information gone into further detail below. TheVHSArtist (talk) 12:37, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) @TheVHSArtist: Clearly another editor disagrees with your change. If you believe you have a valid edit, put it back to status quo ante to show good faith and enter discussion on the article talk page to build consensus. As for @NinjaRobotPirate:, AN/I shouldn't be the first step in an edit dispute. If they're not under a WP:1RR ruling, it's a little over-the-top to jump into asking for a block for edit warring after 1 revert and no discussion. Did you WP:AGF and reach out to the user to engage in any form of discussion such as WP:BRD? At this point, this is just a content dispute, not a behavioral issue (and doesn't appear to belong in ANI). ButlerBlog (talk) 14:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Right, because twice removing citations to a reliable source (with the edit summary "um, no") is just a content dispute. I should have started an RFC on the article's talk page to see if the article should be properly sourced according to film scholars or whether we should restore the unsourced content and keep it free of those unsightly citations. Clearly, the essay you've pointed to overrules WP:BURDEN, a policy. But, luckily, TheVHSArtist has deigned to allow me to add citations to the article, and he restored most of them, except for the source for the genre. So, I guess we don't need that RFC after all, unless someone wants to add a citation for the genre. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
  • The snark isn't necessary. You can disagree and still make a point and I would respect your experience - I'm just telling you how it appears from my perspective. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Multiple similarly named editors repeatedly adding unwanted content to my talk page

Devrimdpt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Benimadımdevrim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sikicidevrim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please see changes here [37] from above users (so far).

Repeatedly adding a 'pornstar award' to my talk page (Which is definitely unwarranted and unwanted!) after being asked to stop. A lot of these contributions also seem to be unconstructive (reverting edits for no reason, removing templates from articles for no reason etc.) Special:Contributions/Devrimdpt JeffUK (talk) 13:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Also making direct attacks against other users in similar edit summaries e.g. User talk:Onel5969 - Wikipedia JeffUK (talk) 13:29, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

All indefinitely blocked with TPA and email turned off. Please ask if you would like your User/talk pages semi-protected for a while. Black Kite (talk) 13:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Thailand IP range keeps ignoring film billing block limitations

• 2403:6200:8814:3F74:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

The billing block of a film lists the actors who were able to negotiate star billing in the film. The infobox of film articles should reproduce this list exactly. Someone in Thailand has been very prolific in adding more actors to the infobox—actors who are not credited as stars.[38][39][40] Despite hundreds of edits, they have never contributed to a talk page. Can we give them a timeout and a chance to open discussion? Binksternet (talk) 14:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Requesting to block User:Hisowow for disruptive editing

User:Hisowow has been making disruptive editing on the Template: Dance drama of Southeast Asia Tellisavas (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Well, you haven't included any diffs or an explanation of what makes the edits disruptive. Interestingly, the other editor reported you at AIV because of drama at Commons even though Hisowow has never edited Commons. Even more curious, the account is only 2 hours old. You guys seem to have some pre-existing drama. @Hisowow:, is your other account User:Truth and Copyrights? That wouldn't be a policy violation, but it's kind of weird if you're making multiple accounts to report people on different projects. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Diff of Truth and Copyrights reporting Tellisavas 1. Sarrail (talk) 17:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, Hisowow is his sockpuppet account. This user:ผู้เปิดเผยความจริง is also his account and he's been making disruptive edits on Mek Mulung article. Tellisavas (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Since when it is 'Malaysian'? Given sources clearly stated that both Mek Mulung and Joget are definitely not 'Malaysian'. Stop hijacking another countries' cultures and claimed it as 'Malaysian', both Indonesia and Thailand are older than Malaysia itself per see. (Hisowow (talk) 17:34, 11 December 2022 (UTC)) this was his words on my talk page shows a personal hatred towards Malaysia and vendetta against myself. I am afraid of my safety. Tellisavas (talk) 17:38, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

He has consistently making disruptive edits and changing every narrative regarding the Mek Mulung article under the username:ผู้เปิดเผยความจริง and based on Hisowow's arguments shows that Hisowow and ผู้เปิดเผยความจริง are the same person vandalizing articles of Mek Mulung and also to some extent Joget as well. Tellisavas (talk) 17:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

OK, that's something I can work with. User:ผู้เปิดเผยความจริง is  Confirmed to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Eiskrahablo. I blocked some others, including Hisowow, as suspected because they're on a different IP range. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Hisowow also filed the same report at DRN as they filed at AIV. DRN was very much the wrong place for a questionable conduct report by a sockpuppet. We get all sorts of weird filings at DRN occasionally. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Washington DC–area IP range has problems with competence

• 2600:4040:1644:E800:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

Someone using an IP range from Arlington, Virginia, has been disrupting music, film and TV articles with unreferenced and incompetent additions.[41][42][43] Some of the disruption breaks into BLP territory.[44] They have been warned many times but they never respond. Binksternet (talk) 18:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

problem editor on Professional wrestling article

User:WWE_Lover_Fan_Forever is behaving obnoxiously on Talk:Professional wrestling. Kurzon (talk) 19:01, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

You mean this, where they remove talk page content inappropriately? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 19:08, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Also engaging in personal attacks and edit warring (they're currently on 5 reverts on Professional wrestling, EWN thread here). — Czello 11:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Speaking as an uninvolved watcher of the article, there's been an ongoing series of issues, with either Czello or Kurzon right in the middle in most cases. I'm sure the microcosm presented here is good for feeding the usual ANI drama, but it would help to take a closer look before passing judgment. I'm thinking borderline WP:OWN. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 11:27, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The article (particularly the lead) are often subject to edit warring from passing IPs or new accounts. I don't think it's at all reasonable to suggest OWN issues in following the WP:BRD process. — Czello 11:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

WWE Lover Fan Forever blocked indefinitely from Professional wrestling as well as its talkpage by Bishonen — Czello 11:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

User talk:96.245.37.202

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Can someone please block this ip. They are leaving trolling comments about trans people on Talk:Elon Musk. Schierbecker (talk) 19:25, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Schierbecker: Blocked. SQL^{Query Me!} 19:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive SPA in Hunnic topics

Giray Altay (talk · contribs) is disrupting Wikipedia in multiple ways:

1. he is WP:STONEWALLING discussions, posting massive WP:WALLSOFTEXT: take these random posts over the last few days for example: [45], [46], [47], [48]
2. he is preventing content from being added or edited for no obvious reason (witness this thread about whether we have to include the name of a scholar proposing an etymology). When information from an additional source is found, he reverts under the pretext that discussion is ongoing [49], then argues that only the scholarly he likes should be included because Also, hate about talking about conflict of interest; and I am not making any accusations, but: Omeljan Pritsak was a disinterested Ukrainian observer; Helfen, Doerfer, and Schramm were all German... [50], and again [51]. He’s gone so far as to accuse me of a personal attack against his favorite scholar because I said that not everyone agrees with him [52], ”because other scholars do not share his basic premise” this is preposterous. It's just a personal attack against Pritsak. [53]. He also stated I want to include reasonable explanations. I try not to be lukewarm; but to be decided. There are cases in which the etymology is actually really doubtful. But in this case, the name is, imo, likely Turkic. [54]
3. he is unfailingly rude and demonstrates a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and does not WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH: ''It is disputed, just as I said it would be'' but you didn't know it. You know it now. But you should be arguing based on facts not wishful thinking. [55]; Regarding the article, it is very simple: there was some content you wanted to get rid of forever because of some "Pan-Turkism fears" and I prevented you from doing that. [56], are you here to help improve the article or what? By the way, are you interested in Hunnic topic too? How did you find this article? It was created nearly 2 months ago so I wonder [57]; Curiously enough, you are the only editor in Wikipedia, the only page watcher out of 223 (supposing you were watching this page at all) who's jumped in to argue against me. Even more curiously, you jumped in just before @Obenritter made their fourth revert in a suspected edit war. [58][ The way you are trying to hide stuff from this article is so evident, it is ridiculous. The only thing I don't understand is why nobody is saying anything. The guy is literally saying those source are primary, old and misquoted. [59]; However, you seem to wanting at all costs to distort and mix the sources [60]
4. Regarding his assumptions of bad faith, he has twice spuriously reported other editors to WP:AN: [61], [62]
5. he is adding un- and poorly sourced pages full of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to Wikipedia, and when asked to provide documentation for his edits states You will never get quotes for them. [63]. Elsewhere he argues I disagree with yours and Sernac's pov. By your logic we should edit all articles of ancient genealogies (such as the Arpad dynasty, the list of Chinese emperors, or of Japanese ones) and remove from them all information based on anachronistic chronicles. [64]. He clearly does not understand our WP:RS policies

It is my belief that Giray Altay qualifies as a WP:SPA. He only edits in the area of Huns and seems to attach everything he can find to them while also championing scholars who connect them to modern Turks. He is disruptive to the project and should be prevented from causing further harm.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear, Borsoka, Erminwin, and Obenritter: as other editors who have interacted with him.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC) @Srnec: forgot you.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

So this was closed just over 1 day ago, with a warning to Giray Altay. How much of this relates to things that have happened since then? --JBL (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I believe everything in bullet point 2 is since then, as well as various other diffs throughout the report, e.g. [65], [66], [67], [68]. The diffs are generally in reverse chronological order after each bullet point.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

This user has reported me after I myself reported them (1). They apparently are not content with how the case ended (2)

Never did they try to constructively edit with me for the sake of Wikipedia, but from the very beginning (2) decided they would be against me.

Not sure about the reason. An admin has suggested "sock-puppet syndrome", but I don't agree with them, because now the accusation has changed in just a few hours. There must be something they don't like with my username and /or topics of interest.

I was just saying to myself: well, maybe I can finally have a constructive, practical discussion with them at Mundus. Sure enough, a moment later I got a message on my talk page notifying me of this discussion.

This is not a "single purpose account". I set tasks for myself. The first was improving the topic of the Huns. Which I just finished. I was now going to focus on 5th-century Germanic figures, inspired by a more practical and collaborative editor (3). However, I was blocked for days to await the response of an ANI case I had to open after Ermenrich tag teamed against me with a bunch of his friends, canvassing and posting on public pages that I am a socket puppet mastermind or something (4, 5). Which happened just a few weeks after Borsoka (the user they just asked support from by pinging them) stalked me to another user page to find support against me (6), after their own AN3 case against me was dismissed (7) and they didn't get it their own way at Samuel Aba upon intervention by the admins. Giray Altay (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• These nationalistic disputes are really tiresome. Firstly DNA evidence points to people having mixed much more in history than the "one-drop" people would have us believe, and secondly etymology is completely different from genetics. Thirdly nobody who actually follows the science and reliable sources cares about such things anyway. Robert Burns summed it up well:

  Oh, would some Power give us the gift
  To see ourselves as others see us"!

  Phil Bridger (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  I just saw JBL's and Ermenrich's replies.

  So, basically, you opened this just because of a discussion at a talk page?

  It's far too easy to take phrases out of context. Let the reader of this go to Mundus and have a look (and, ideally, let them have a look at our previous ANI discussion as well), so they may understand.

  Pritsak is not my "favorite scholar". The issue at Mundus was that Ermenrich, just as they are doing here, started to argue not to reach a sensible answer, but to prove their own conclusion. This is why they first argue against certain content in the article based on their own research and on sensations, on the "feeling" that certain things must exist, somewhere (Pritsak's etymology of Mundus is obviously influenced by his theory of the origin of the Hunnic language. He could have said it was from Latin and meant "pure" [1], he could have said it was from Germanic and meant "hand" or "protection" [2]. I'm sure there are other equally close matches to "Mundus", 3) (though they accuse me of making original research in the talk page 4). They argue for leaving out certain content when it suits them (Giesmus should stay out of the article (edit summary)), but then use the inclusion of such content to support their views ("Giesmus has a Germanic ring to it" is definitely an endorsement of the view that the name is Germanic).

  Though they accuse me of preventing content from being added or edited for no obvious reason, what I did was actually reverting their edits done as discussion, regarding such additions, was going on at the talk page, as stated in the edit summary ('Reverted to original. Discussion is ongoing at the talk page'). They did the same thing at Odoacer, reverting my edits and citing the fact discussion was ongoing at the talk page to justify their action (5). There seems to be a lack of coherence here. Giray Altay (talk) 21:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Just for the records, Giray Altay's above presentation about our discussion with regard to Samuel Aba is not fully inline with the facts. For instance, admins did not intervene in the content debate. Borsoka (talk) 10:32, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• for the record*
• My bad. I thought that the user who intervened at Samuel Aba was an admin.

Giray Altay (talk) 10:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Giray Altay should be explicitly reminded that talk page discussions, especially on disputed topics, work best if they are sourced. They should then be reminded that they are the only editor who has not provided an independent source to support their assertions at Talk:Mundus (magister militum); the obvious conclusion is that they're running on nothing but WP:OR which renders their snarky "You know it now. But you should be arguing based on facts not wishful thinking" rather funny. Nevertheless, they are a new editor—they've just jumped in at the deep end, and perhaps someone should throw them a life ring, instead of releasing the piranhas (I'd really like to know in what world a four-line paragraph is a wall of text).
• Perhaps it would help both the coherency and concision of their arguments if they had to support every assertion they made (on talk or mainspace) with a source. You know what, that's quite a good idea for a lot of editors. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• What four line paragraph are you referring to AirshipJungleman29? Did I include something wrong in the diffs? I think you can see that he posts long walls of text as a rule, consisting of several paragraphs. He also needlessly and rudely corrects Borsoka’s English above [69] as well as makes various unfounded accusations against me and Borsoka in his other posts here and generally misapplies and misinterprets Wikipedia policy . I don’t believe that Huns is normally a very high-stress, high-controversy topic, so I don’t really see why people keep saying he’s just started editing in a controversial area: there was little controversy there until he appeared.—-Ermenrich (talk) 12:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Ermenrich, I don't generally think that a ten line reply spread across four paragraphs is worthy of the reply "No one is going to join this discussion if you keep posting long WP:WALLSOFTEXT", nor that a fifteen line reply spread across five paragraphs is worthy of citation at ANI.
• "there was little controversy there until he appeared" is a dubious statement considering your assertion on 19 Nov "You're one of a number of a new editors who have suddenly popped up editing Hunnic topics ...The Huns attract quite a bit of attention." and the ongoing thread at WP:AN.
• In all honesty, I would be pretty pissed off if editors started discussing the likelihood I was a sockpuppeteer and which accounts I might be connected to while pinging me in the same discussion. I am not overly impressed, it has to be said. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

That is not what happened, AirshipJungleman29. I certainly didn’t, and I discussed the possibility of his being a sock puppet exactly once [70], [71]. Borosika, the only person besides GA to reply, also didn’t ping him [72]. Those three edits are the whole discussion of him being a sock puppet before he reported us to AN for it. So what are you talking about? Edit: forgot that I obliquely asked here as well [73]

As to ten line replies, look at the threads he has! He posts three times more than anyone else and makes it impossible to follow the conversation, as was already noted multiple times during the AN report. Look at talk:Mundus or talk:List of Huns or talk:Odoacer#Removal of content or talk:Attilid dynasty and tell me this is not gross stonewalling and obfuscation.

And there are sock puppets that show up, yes, but they tend to prefer more recent Eurasian history. I cannot ever remember as big a disruption the whole time I’ve been here, and I basically wrote several articles on the Huns here without any controversy whatsoever.—Ermenrich (talk) 13:38, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Ermenrich, You seem to forget [74], written five minutes after pinging them. When there are walls of text, you should cite the policy then and there, not waiting until another convenient time to post it and thus win the current dispute. Finally, I can't reconcile "sockpuppets tend to prefer more recent Eurasian history" (12 Dec) and "this topic is subject to a lot of sock puppetry and nationalist POV pushing" (18 Nov), unless the present tense is far more flexible than previously suspected.

In case I need to reiterate, I think that this editor should be explicitly warned to follow content guidelines, instead of jumping straight to conduct accusations of dubious quality. I think I have said all I need to on this matter. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

If I pinged them, show a diff please. Otherwise I do not remember doing it and I’m pretty sure I didn’t, AirshipJungleman29. You may have me confused with Erminwin?.—Ermenrich (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, I did indeed; my mistake. Still, judging from the indentation, you had seen Erminwin's ping, and decided to make the sock-like comment anyway. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

1. ~~ AirshipJungleman29, at Mundus, Ermenrich argued based on his own theory, which relied on some Wiktionary's entries. That's not based on sources. But, they said I was making original research.

That is what I meant by ''arguing based on facts not wishful thinking''. They ''later'' did provide some scholar supporting Germanic origin for the name; but they had nothing when they proposed their own etymology. You cannot argue based on a "hunch".

I am arguing based on a source, which is Pritsak. I also told them that I need ''some time to see if I can find some other scholar's opinion'' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mundus_(magister_militum)&diff=1126884699&oldid=1126883749 1]. We were still discussing at the talk page, but they nevertheless opened this tread at ANI.

If you look at the many Hun-related articles I created including etymologies, you'll see that I was always cautious and neutral in the recurrent Germanic/Turkic/Iranian proposed origin of Hun names. In this case, I am convinced that Mundus' name (a grandson of Attila) is related to Mundzuk, Attila's father (a relation of names that at least two of the three German scholars endorse). Then, Mundzuk sounds a lot "Altaic" to my ears. Even so, I am willing to keep discussing the matter at the article. I reverted Ermenrich merely because they should wait till conversation is over at the talk page before publishing their preferred version. Notice that I reverted the article to its original form, before either of us edited it. Giray Altay (talk) 15:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I had a "hunch" because I know something about this topic from working on it here for years, and I then backed it up with sources. The fact that you think Pritsak is right does not matter. The fact that you continue to insist that it does shows a clear disregard for WP:TRUTH and WP:RS, something which has not gone away after GA was warned for something completely different before.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

And you seem convinced that the name is of Germanic origin. We were discussing this at the Mundus talk page. What I don't get is, why coming here? As JBL noticed: what has changed since the ANI case involving us was closed the other day? Only Mundus' talk page changed, so the cause of all this must lie there. Giray Altay (talk) 15:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not "convinced" the name has a Germanic etymology - I have no idea. I just know that Pritsak never met a name he didn't think was "Altaic" and other scholars have different ideas, even though the article currently treats Pritsak's proposal as the only one, not even naming him.

I brought this here after I became convinced you were simply going to keep stonewalling to keep alternative suggestions to a Turkic etymology out of the article, with increasingly far-fetched reasoning such as "the scholars have subconscious bias".--Ermenrich (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Stop taking statements out of context. I said WW2 German scholars ''may'' have a subconscious bias, and most importantly that some readers ''may'' find three German scholars supporting Germanic etymology a clue for conflict of interest. Doesn't mean i believe that. But I also invited you to provide some Germanic etymology proposed by some more modern scholar ideally not German by nationality. Even though I believe the name has Turkic etymology, I am willing to include others etymologies in the article. Just don't publish your preferred version until conversation at the talk page is over.

And you should not claim that I used far-fatched reasoning to put my view into the article, when you are the one who used your own etymologies based on WP:OR and dictionary's entries to push a view at the talk page. Giray Altay (talk) 15:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I'm taking something out of context when that was your explicit reasoning for not adding it to the page. It's also specious reasoning. If you would stop tit-for-tat-ing and continually bringing up some thing I did/said that you think is just the worst and thus justifies whatever you yourself are doing , I might not have brought this ANI case. Tu quoque is a logical fallacy, not a defense.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I think you have been quoqueing too. I am just trying to answer your points and accusations.

Maybe out of context was not the right way to describe what you did just earlier. But the way you say it (''keep content in the article... with increasingly far-fetched reasoning such as "the scholars have subconscious bias"'), it looks like I actually used that as a chief argument and that I am convinced of it; whereas I merely took note of that as an additional reason why we should try and find more opinions among scholars while we were discussing at the talk page. It also looks like a general statement, whereas my tentative ''observation'' only referred to German scholars writing during WW2.

You OTOH, criticized Pritsak, for example, suggesting that, because he has a certain general view about the ''Huns'' (not even Mundus or Giesmus), we should not trust him in this instance. As if, just because Helfen erroneously rejected any Huns-Xiongnu relation, we should mistrust anything he said about some Hunnish or Xiongnu individuals. Giray Altay (talk) 16:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Stating that Pritsak has a view about the Hunnish language that is not the same as a majority of scholars is not criticizing him or saying "we cannot trust him", it is stating a fact which must be reflected in how we present his views in the article. Anyway, this is not a place to discuss article content disputes - you should do that on the article talk pages.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Stating that those scholars are German and Pritsak is not Turk are also facts. It's all about how you interpret facts, whether there is reason to believe they influenced the scholars' comments. Though you now say that your comments on Pritsak don't mean "we mustn't trust him", it seemed to me you implied it at Mundus.

Now I also remember why I stated you made a "personal attack" at Pritsak. Wikipedia itself states that editors should not use a person's affiliation to discredit their views. That type of concept may be applied here. Why discredit Pritsak for his allegedly "discordant" view? Also, this article is about Mundus, not the Hunnic language. Like I said, ''if'' Pritsak's general assessment of Hunnic language is actually discordant, and if we want to consider this deserving removal of Pritsak-backed content from articles, then most of Helfen's statements should be removed from the Huns, since he was proven wrong by following scholars and science regarding the Huns-Xiongnu identification. But of course that would be foolish, because Helfen had his limits and was wrong about the ultimate origin of the Huns, but is nevertheless valuable for many, many explanations and conclusions, even those regarding the arrival of the Huns in Europe and their culture, so pertaining to their origins.

I also don't get how Pritsak's general view would have influenced him to ascribe Turkic etymology, since you yourself said he '''did not''' believe Hunnish was a Turkic language? [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mundus_(magister_militum)&diff=1126661769&oldid=1126661713 1] Giray Altay (talk) 19:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Stating that a scholar's view is not the academic consensus is not an "affiliation" or a personal attack - wp:no personal attacks is about discussion of other editors, not discussing the prevalence of a scholar's ideas, which we can and must do. Besides that misinterpretation of policy, the rest of your post belongs on an article talk page, not here.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment As someone who was an active user on this topic, Giray Altay's activity is 50-50 in my opinion. Some good contributions like expanding {{Huns}} and creating articles like Hunnic art but also some unacceptable activities like posting walls of text plus ignoring both editors' concerns and WP rules; e.g. take a look at Talk:List of Huns. Also, this report clearly shows signs of WP:BATTLEGROUND. Posting TLDR content won't help you but they will make your case worse. There is nothing such as winning/losing on WP. You really need to read WP:OWN: No one "owns" content (including articles or any page at Wikipedia). If you create or edit an article, others can make changes, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. In addition, you should not undo their edits without good reason. Disagreements should be calmly resolved, starting with a discussion on the article talk page. --Mann Mann (talk) 13:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts. First, Ermenrich is correct that Giray Altay's edits started off fairly combative when I removed content that was poorly sourced (no page numbers/just generic Google book refs)) and/or included "scholarly opinion" (relayed in peacock fashion) from one work that was over 65 years old on a disputed topic (Odoacer's ethnicity). This editor also outright ignored citation formatting even when asked to adjust their additions accordingly—at first. However, after some bickering back and forth on the talk page of the article and on our respective editor Talk pages, the matter was amicable reconciled. This behavior led me to believe that this editor has very strong opinions and struggles with objectivity. At the same time, Giray Altay did adjust his/her posture in the end. Ermenrich is right to raise a caution flag here for future edits made by this individual, but my opinion is divided since it appears Giray Altay is quite capable of constructive edits, provided some oversight is provided. --Obenritter (talk) 14:26, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - Neither party involved is clean in this. Instead of letting things go, both parties have escalated this. Whether falsely accusing another editor of being a sockpuppet (falsely because the only evidence so far is that they appear to not be a new editor) and then doubling down on it rather than admitting their mistake or falsely accusing other editors of being biased against them due to their ethnicity (taking comments completely out of context to form that opinion) also never admitting their mistake and continuing to openly express it. This has really gone on long enough. In the close of the previous discussion Giray was warned for the majority of the things that were discussed here, and though not specifically mentioned, so were the other editors involved. Anything can become controversial at any point so that isn't evidence of nefarious activity. What this is evidence of is that there are some editors that need to find something else to do for a while and not interact with each other. --ARoseWolf 14:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  Allright, I admit my mistake regarding the ethnicity-related accusation, and I apologize. Still, I cannot understand Ermenrich's motivations.

  I don't think that Ermenrich is a bad person or bad editor. I felt sorry for them when they opened this because I thought it might have not ended good for them or somewhat ruined their reputation (it is not irony, I really mean this). They could've at least waited a couple days before coming to the admins again

  I think Ermenrich is right to keep an eye for actual nationalists, socks. etc.. I hope all this doesn't stop them from keep patrolling because it is important. Simply, in this case they are mistaken.

  They are free to keep an eye on my edits; and should they find something that is actually cause of concern for nationalistic or whatever malicious activity, they should report it. But until then, just please stop with accusations. Giray Altay (talk) 15:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm fully willing to apologize for voicing my suspicions at Erminwin's talk page and then at AN about GA being a sock, but I don't think that solves the underlying problem here.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

It's a start and a lot more than either of you have been willing to do so far. @Giray, perhaps their motivation is they really believe your comments on talk pages are disruptive. Perhaps they really believe some of the edits you are adding are incorrect. That's why we must have civil and calm discussions without frivolous accusations. This isn't the place to discuss content disputes but in at least a few discussions you felt there was no need to provide verifiable sources. How exactly is Ermenrich or any other editor supposed to keep an eye on edits and verify whether they are properly stated without a reliable source by which to verify it? Can't the both of you see how things can escalate so quickly? A simple misunderstanding can devolve into a battleground full of aspersions and accusations that are not simply policy concerns but are actually damaging to other's experience and the mission of the encyclopedia. Can't you both see your own culpability here? Collaboration is not an option. Civility is not an option. Assuming good faith from the start and all the way through discussion until solid proof is provided that someone is not acting in good faith is a requirement to keep these issues from happening. It's central to the mission of Wikipedia. If we can not see that this entire episode, all these AN/ANI filings and talk page discussions are a failure on the part of many involved to adhere to that then what further discussion can we have that is not going to turn into a shouting match and eventually wind up back here? We can disagree. We can voice that disagreement. But at no point in our disagreement should aspersions or accusations be the central theme of our side of the discussion and that has happened a few times between the both of you. --ARoseWolf 16:12, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. On a lighter note, I think we can all appreciate the humor of my stating that GA is using the tu quoque fallacy and them responding I think you have been quoqueing too. Et tu, quoque?—-Ermenrich (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Requesting TPA revocation

Can someone revoke talk page access for User talk:64.231.216.31? User was abusing talk page before the 60-hour block and is continuing to abuse it. Thanks! ◇HelenDegenerate◆ 21:38, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done by JBW--Ymblanter (talk) 21:49, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Ymblanter and HelenDegenerate: It doesn't really make any difference, but just to set the record straight it was actually done by Materialscientist. My username appears on the current block log entry because the last change to the block was me increasing the block time. JBW (talk) 23:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

User:비씨카드

Can someone revoke TPA for this user? They've been using it to continue disruptive editing. Sheep (talk) 01:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Meh. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 01:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Also FYI see the edit history of the user's talk page. Sheep (talk) 01:26, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Don't worry; it's been handled by Legoktm, with TPA turned off. Sarrail (talk) 01:43, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Zack48588558 - disruptive editing

Zack48588558 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) User:Zack48588558 continuously advertises their YouTube page on Effingham County, Illinois, in which it was first reverted here (diff). Then, they self-promo again (diff) which I revert, and then they revert me, removing all the piped links and ruining templates, and again self-promo (redlinking all of them) (diff). I revert this, and they go on my talk page calling what they're doing their "job" while guilt tripping me, saying how hard it is to find a job and trying to find a job for Wikipedia. (diff). --Harobouri • 🎢 • 🏗️ (he/him • WP:APARKS) 02:12, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

They were blocked by Orangemike --Jayron32 12:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Please block User:Alaa Aly (currently-active unapproved bot)

Per Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#Unauthorized_bot_making_WP:NOTBROKEN_edits but this might be quicker.

Alaa Aly (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is currently making one edit every ten seconds with an edit summary saying it’s currently running a bot. Such a bot was not approved (and likely will never be, as the edits violate WP:NOTBROKEN, but that’s a side concern). It should be blocked ASAP, and any unblock should be conditional on the owner agreeing to read and abide by the bot policy. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 10:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Never mind, they shut it down. A stern talking-to might still be warranted. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 10:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

@DuncanHill and I have reverted all of their edits. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 10:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• I revoked ECM for this user, will leave them talk message. They are welcome to request restoration after 500 legitimate edits at WP:PERM. — xaosflux ^Talk 20:00, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Personal attack by user Ethnopunk

Nobody should be allowed to write "you are persisting in your racist, bigoted, anti-Semitic anti-intellectual endeavour" at another editor in good standing. What more needs to be said? Maybe the edit summary "bigot" on this edit. Zero^talk 10:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

An examination of the editors contributions shows that following an attempt to editwar in this content in October during which he reverted Zero twice (breaking 1R in the process) and then myself, the talk page discussion here has descended into WP:BLUDGEONING a POV that at least half a dozen editors disagree with. The editor was let away with a 1R breach and subsequently continues to refuse to engage in a proper talk page discussion. This really needs to stop.Selfstudier (talk) 11:56, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The content of this user's comments combined with the edit they were trying to force into the article makes me think they have an axe to grind. — Czello 12:00, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Blocked 1 month per WP:NPA. Normal admin action, not AE. --Jayron32 12:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Further attacks, proposing indef

After the report by Zero and subsequent one-month block by Jayron32, the user Ethnopunk continues to engage in some of the strongest personal attacks I've seen on WP in ten years, openly accusing several users of "Holocaust denial" [75] and even of being Nazis [76]. This kind of behaviour in such a sensitive area as ARBPIA makes me question whether this user should be let back. If they are, at the very least a permanent topic-ban from ARBPIA would seem warranted. (As a reminder, today's outbursts are only the culmination of months of edit warring and personal attacks in ARBPIA-related topics. Jeppiz (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

User continues with same edits without explanation

Moved from WT:ADMIN (permalink)

User Dogfog567 keeps changing the images without an explanation on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%9321_United_States_Senate_election_in_Georgia I have already gave him a warning about this and the user has been non responsive. It is getting annoying and I am getting tired of reverting his edits. Putitonamap98 (talk) 10:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

@Putitonamap98: Dogfog567 has a redlinked talk page. So, no, you have not warned them. Maybe you should consider doing so. Also, you are required to notify them about this discussion here. Please do THAT as well. --Jayron32 12:17, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, at no point has anyone attempted to discuss this with Dogfog567. Canterbury Tail talk 16:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I warned him in an edit summary sorry for not clarifying

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2020%E2%80%9321_United_States_Senate_election_in_Georgia&action=history Putitonamap98 (talk) 01:12, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

User:CourtneySCalhoun

I have just declined at AfC, and requested speedy on, this promotional draft by CourtneySCalhoun. I was going to post a COI/UPE notice on the user's talk page, but saw that they had made a blanket statement on User:CourtneySCalhoun denying any paid editing. AGF notwithstanding, I find that hard to believe, considering their edit history and who they say they are, and looking at their talk page it seems I'm not the first one. Could someone take a look? Thanks, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Cullen328 - Tone-policing

I'm starting to reach the end of my patience with Cullen328 (talk · contribs)'s tone-policing with respect to me on Wikipedia's help fora. Over the past year there's been three incidents where he's gotten on my case due to either incautious wording or taking umbrage with specific phraseology I use, and on the second incident I explicitly told him in no uncertain terms to stay off my talk page. Cue today, where I wake up to find he's posted a threat to block me to my talk page. For the history:

• Incident 1 was in June, when Cullen took umbrage to this edit, which centred around a draft that has since been oversighted for privacy reasons (if the diff didn't make that obvious). Cullen objected to my use of the phrase "crystal fucking clear" and my use of the term "doxx" without actually looking at the history of the situation, something which two other administrators criticised him over, with one explicitly calling it "tone policing" and both noting the privacy concerns were very valid and he was being pedantic.
• Incident 2 was in August, where Cullen took umbrage to a new template message I was testing for the repetitive and (IMNSHO) ignorant "company page article" threads that pop up seemingly every few hours at the Teahouse and Help Desk. Cullen hopped into a thread on my talk page started by someone else, which led to a bit of an argument between us that ended when I told them to get off and stay off my talk page. Again, Cullen was criticised here for the tone policing by another administrator. (I haven't used the template message since and actually had it G5'd after that thread to try and avoid further harassment from Cullen.)
• Incident 3 is yesterday/today. Cullen took offence to me describing myself as a "bastard helper from Hell", a phrase which I've consistently used for when I deep-dive into sources as of late, and threatened to indef me if I ever used the phrase again. I should note that of the two times it was used in the past 24h, the first was cordial in tone throughout and the second was demanding an American reviewer because the draft subject was an American. The second OP has yet to respond further, which I can't in all fairness chalk up to the phraseology; about half of AfC/HD threads don't get further input from the original poster and I don't find it entirely impossible they may return at some point later to reply.

Rather than get back into the old rigamarole of having a fruitless argument with Cullen on a page he's explicitly been told to stay off of, I'm bringing it here to see what needs to be done - to myself or to Cullen - to stop this. I'm not going to change my tone to appease his fickle standards more than I already have, and I'm not going to be effectively harangued off of the help fora. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 15:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Idk, I just read those and it looks to me like you're burning out on Teahouse and Help Desk. I get it can be a maddening environment--that's why I don't volunteer there--but if you can't respond to folks there without being angry or condescending, without profanity, etc., you should just take a break. Obviously those are areas where patience is a requirement. Again, not really faulting you for losing patience, as I would lose my patience, too, but impatient helpers aren't much help there. I don't see Cullen's comments as tone policing, but rather as enforcing our civility policy and trying to maintain a productive and collegial environment in the new user help areas. Levivich (talk) 15:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  The first incident was after I had spent an entire thread explaining to the person why their page was unacceptable. The second was quickly addressed. The third was self-deprecation. How would any of this be considered "burnout"? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 15:41, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  The first one had profanity and all caps. The second one was incredibly patronizing/condescending. The third one I get but might be misunderstood as you calling the other person a bastard. I can see (as Jay mentions below) that you have been asked to tone it down by multiple people. That you see this as a problem of tone policing and not a problem of tone suggests to me you're burned out to the point that your perception is clouded. Levivich (talk) 15:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Is there a reason, Jéské Couriano, that you singled out Cullen's warnings about tone at Wikipedia's help fora, when I can count numerous other people who have warned you for the same sorts of thing going back months; including DGG on 1 November 2020, Mortee on 6 April 2021 with Blaze The Wolf concurring, TechnoTalk on 5 May 2022 and later on 30 June 2022 with 71.228.112.175 concurring, etc. There are a half dozen different people who have told you already that your tone violates WP:CIVIL at the Teahouse and other help fora, and you have ignored all of them. Cullen was hardly the first, or only, person to do so, and I must say I concur with every one of them. I'm surprised you've brought this here, as the potential for a WP:BOOMERANG topic ban from all help fora seems very likely, given that you've been told for years, from multiple unrelated people, that your behavior on these fora is unacceptable. --Jayron32 15:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  Mind giving me a diff to when I (Blaze The Wolf) agreed about the tone? I have very poor memory (I have no clue why, I just do). ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 15:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Here. --Jayron32 15:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  Because I've explicitly told Cullen to stay off my talk page. Also note that all of those warnings you mention pre-date the first incident. I've been trying to keep my nose clean since then. (In hindsight maybe I shouldn't have bothered.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 15:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with Cullen (and others) that you need to take it down several notches. I enjoy and appreciate BOFH myself but he's not a desirable model for user interaction, even if the users deserve it. Mackensen (talk) 15:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  My point is that you haven't kept your nose clean. A bunch of people, for several years, have told you to improve your tone at the various help fora, and Cullen is just the latest of them. --Jayron32 15:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  And the past few months means nothing? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 15:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  Not being incivil sometimes does not cancel out a pattern of incivility. You seem to have a problem with repeatedly being incivil in discussion forums. You don't make the incivility go away just because you had a some intervening posts where you didn't cuss someone out. --Jayron32 16:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with others above - the diffs presented above are clearly taking the wrong tone for the Teahouse, which is supposed to be a welcoming environment. Responses posted to the Teahouse need to be considerate not only of the editor to whom they are being written but also to other passers-by. If I was a new good-faith editor coming to the Teahouse to ask a question about my edits I'd feel very turned off by the messages linked above. Sam Walton (talk) 16:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps Jeske can voluntarily agree not to post at the Teahouse. I do not think his comments cause nearly as much angst at AFCHD and honestly it's a style that absolutely draws attention to the issues with sourcing. I would not support sanction beyond the Teahouse. Slywriter (talk) 16:12, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Cullen's most recent complaint is explicitly about AfC/HD. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 16:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure that any sanction at all is necessary here. I think Jeske is receiving a much-needed "wake-up call". It's not entirely Jeske's fault; after all, two admins did agree with him about the "tone policing", so I can understand why Jeske was led astray. Jeske, a tip for the future: if one admin is saying one thing, and two admins are saying another thing, and the one admin had >300 support votes in their RFA while the other had <100 combined, listen to that one admin and not the other two, because that one admin probably has a better handle on what consensus is. It's an unpleasant truth, but not all admins are created equal. Levivich (talk) 16:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not inclined to listen to an administrator who threatens to block me indefinitely, has gotten on my case for good-faith errors not connected to incivility, and refuses to listen to a request to stay off my talk page. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 16:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

You don't have to listen, but the admin can still warn you, and act on those warnings, even if you tell them to stay off your talk page. You can't prevent an admin from sanctioning you by telling them to stay off your talk page, and you've been around long enough to know this. Levivich (talk) 16:37, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, well, are you likewise not inclined to listen to anyone else in this discussion, several who are saying the same things? If what you're seeking in this thread is to demonstrate that complaints about your tone and demeanor -- in areas where calm/welcoming/friendly are especially important -- are unwarranted, you're doing a poor job of it ... never mind your bizarre insistence that telling an admin to stay off your talk page immunizes you against being warned by that admin. Good grief, you were an admin yourself once upon a time. How is it that you don't get these things? Ravenswing 16:41, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous argument though, Levivich. An admin isn't more likely to be right or wrong than another admin (or in many cases a non-admin) just because they happened to get more support years ago. I have admins and non-admins whose comments I trust more than those of others, but I have no idea and don't care how much support they got at RfA, or whether they succeeded at failed at an ArbCom election, or... There have been ArbCom members who turned out to be terrible, and failed RfAs who had a perfect handle on consensus or ... Heck, I even heard of people who first got an RfA without a single oppose, but failed a second RfA. RfA support is a terrible metric to rank editors or admins by. Fram (talk) 16:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Eh, to each their own. I'm not suggesting it's a fine metric or anything--not like an admin with 201 supports is better than an admin with 200--but when you compare, say, an admin who got 300 supports 5 years ago, and an admin who got 30 supports 15 years ago, the former's opinion (about what is and isn't disruptive) is going to carry a lot more weight with me than the latter. But YMMV. Levivich (talk) 16:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, but whatever personal distaste the OP has for Cullen specifically, Cullen's warnings for civility violations were certainly not the first time he had so been warned. One merely has to look through the talk page to see a years-long history of recidivism despite multiple warnings. If I, as an admin, had seen that number of warnings for the same issue, I too may have left a stern warning with the threat to block for continued problems. Jéské Couriano's objection to being so warned by Cullen is obviated by the fact that they had been so warned multiple times in the past. Cullen's threat was an entirely appropriate one in response to the pattern of behavior shown over so many years, and warned users don't get ban an admin from doing admin work against them just to avoid scrutiny. --Jayron32 16:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Just to reinforce the fact that you can't ban an Admin from giving you warnings on your talk page. The warning about a block seems appropriate given the number of warnings they've had from others. Doug Weller talk 16:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I will admit that I had forgotten since August that the OP had told me to stay off their talk page, and for that I apologize. If I see obvious misconduct by this editor in the future, I will just block the editor, and as I wrote on their talk page, they will need to convince another administrator that their misconduct will never happen again. Cullen328 (talk) 18:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I doubt you're likely to see that. That I will promise. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 18:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Block evading, IP hopping, grudge holding, ping abuser

I'm not sure what's going on but someone is hopping blocked IPs pinging people they think are admins (including me) to grind an WP:AXE about some petty dispute. [77] [78] then doing nuisance pings from different IPs after I asked them to stop: [79] [80] [81]. Can someone with advanced IP blocking / rangeblock skills whack this mole and turn off talk page access for the ranges to stop the annoying pings please? I am pinging other folks being repeatedly pinged by this person here so they know about the complaint: @Inexpiable: @TheXuitts: @Eggishorn: @Jayron32: @Mathglot: @Nil Einne: @MelanieN: @Citizensunshine: @QuietMedian: @Politrukki: Toddst1 (talk) 18:32, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Just confirming that Toddst1's account is accurate, at least as far as my own experience is concerned, and that I appreciate Toddst1's ping here, but don't appreciate any of the IP pings being complained about. Mathglot (talk) 19:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Having dug a bit further, it looks like these are ipsocks of indeffed user Defeedme (talk · contribs) who seemed to have this grudge against Sideman, leading to this latest indef for Defeedme. Toddst1 (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I noticed and reverted the first one, suspected the editor would be back. Since they don't seem to be giving up maybe preemptively remove talk page access to any IP socks of Defeedme? Alternative could try an edit filter. Nil Einne (talk) 00:34, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. That's what I was (apparently inarticulately) suggesting.

In the mean time, I've adjusted my notifications so I get no pings. Not a great solution but works for WP:DENY. Toddst1 (talk) 00:40, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Cyberbot

I don't know exactly what's going on with Cyberbot I. It's just going bonkers here on the WP:RfPP page. It's making changes and then reverting itself -- and it's done it more than 500 times! Is there a discussion about this somewhere else? Also, apologies if this is not the right spot for this sort of thing. Professor Penguino (talk) 21:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The last time the bot did that was back in April. All it was doing was changing the template {{noadminbacklog}} to {{adminbacklog}} and vice versa. No real issues. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 21:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

See User:Cyberbot I#Snotbot. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 21:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Think the confusion is in how the page logs edit history. Cyberbot1 appears to be the only editor if you view history of the main project page. I'm guessing the human edits are on an alternate/ subpage. The time stamps show there are intervening actions happening somewhere. Slywriter (talk) 21:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

You would be correct. The actual human edits are at WP:RPP/I, WP:RPP/D, and WP:RPP/E ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 23:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)@Professor Penguino, Blaze Wolf, and Slywriter: Hello. The requests regarding protection go to the subpages WP:RPP/I for increase, RPP/D for decrease, and RPP/E for edit requests. The main WP:RPP page has nothing but maintenance related stuff, it also has few commented out statements including: DO NOT EDIT THIS PAGE. The formatting is enforced by Cyberbot. To make changes, please contact Cyberpower678. In short, bot is working as expected. Regarding the venue, it should first go to botop's talkpage, if unanswered there, then on WP:BOTN. Regards, —usernamekiran (talk) 23:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The revisions you linked are from April. Per the current history, though, it's made seven edits today (the same edit-revert thing that's described earlier in this thread). What it looks like it's doing is updating {{noadminbacklog}} to {{adminbacklog}} as appropriate (based on whether there's a backlog or not)... that is, something within the remit of its task that it's supposed to be doing. It may be possible to make this automatic (for example, using parser functions or Lua or something on the main page so that it automatically detects the size of the subpages and displays the appropriate template depending on what threshold they're at). But maybe not. Who knows? jp×g 02:29, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Al-Massae website

The official website of Al-Massae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Massae) redirects to someone selling cosmetics. Al-Massae's web address in a related page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_Morocco) is similarly incorrect — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.120.123.48 (talk) 22:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I confirmed and removed the domain-squatted url in the Al-Massae infobox. The one in the list does appear to be a news outlet, however, possibly Egyptian, but it would be better if somebody who speaks Arabic can take a look. I am also going to post the list at WP:PNT, since that page also needs other work but there are no Arabic-speaking regulars over there, so that won't solve this problem. Elinruby (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Hate-based Vandalism of John Gaeta page.

Hi, This is John C. Gaeta .. On or about Dec 6 timeframe, my wiki page was severely vandalized with an extreme hate filled screed that attacks myself, my family as well as lgbtq and african americans .. and far worse by specifically labeling me as a member of a hate group (kkk) and much worse. To be clear, this has NEVER ever happened to me before. My new home address was also written into the page which I suspect was a way to physically bring harm to me or my family. I should note that I very recently moved to this new stated address and would assume that the # individuals who may know this info is very narrow. I have past associates who are lgbtq and have real concern that there could be a possible connection there. I have a serious concern for safety now for my family and I. I want to know the IP address or general regional location of the address of the attacker as that may be relevant to mitigating any future harm (virtual or physical). I was informed of an attack by a past colleague who discovered it and worked to repair the page .. Please contact me asap and let me know what can be done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yensiwtlad (talk • contribs) 23:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) It seems the vandalising contributions are coming from an account called "John Geata" (note the misspelling), which seems to be a vandalism only account whi John Gaetach is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Similar edits were made by an IP. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 23:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yensiwtlad, I have indefinitely blocked the impersonator/vandal, I have revision deleted the offensive content out of the article's edit history, and I have semi-protected the article for two weeks. If the disruption resumes then, the protection can be extended. I encourage other editors to add this article to their watch lists. Cullen328 (talk) 00:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Yensiwtlad, we cannot disclose the IP address of a registered account. However, the vandalism started with an unregistered IP edit from 73.70.245.207. Cullen328 (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I've emailed the oversight team. — Diannaa (talk) 01:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Good step to take, Diannaa. Thank you. Cullen328 (talk) 02:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

@Yensiwtlad: if you have safety or other real world concerns about something that has happened on Wikipedia, it would be better for you to contact the Wikimedia Foundation who may be able to advise you on whether there's anything that they can help you with. As volunteers we can only really deal with stuff on Wikipedia which includes removing any problematic edits and trying to prevent such edits in the future. Note however, as Cullen328 has said, it is unlikely they will provide the IP of a registered editor except in exceptional circumstances like where there is a court order and in emergencies possibly to law enforcement. Speaking of emergencies, if you believe someone on Wikipedia is threatening physical harm, you can contact [email protected]. See Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm for more details. I cannot see the edits given that they've been removed. But as someone who regularly edits at WP:BLPN where we deal with editing concerns that relate to living persons, I will say the posting of malicious misinformation or attacks on people, sometimes with the inappropriate inclusion of personal information, is unfortunately something that does happen way more than I would like on Wikipedia as on a lot of the internet. The normal way we deal with it as volunteers is to remove these postings in a way that almost no one can see it a process which Diannaa started, and then monitor and try and prevent any re-occurrence. Nil Einne (talk) 04:14, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Disruption on various North Korea-related articles

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See Special:Contributions/!-("AceTheBold!"). User got reverted and put onto WP:AIV by a bot due to their edits to one article to write that North Korea is gay. They then re-instated a new, differently-worded version of this. After their 3rd or so warning, they've stopped doing that, but after stopping this, they decided to leave this unhelpful message on my talk page (the waifu template on my user page is mostly a joke, it says that Wikipe-tan is my waifu) and then made their only ever non-disruptive edit by, dun-dun-dun, adding a template to their user page that says they live on Earth.

IMO, they need to either be given a very final warning or be blocked. They are almost certainly WP:NOTHERE. Among Us for POTUS (talk) 02:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

AIV is pretty backlogged right now and no admins seem to be active. I've also been waiting for about an hour on action to be done against another vandal. wizzito | say hello! 02:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah I see Among Us for POTUS (talk) 02:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Update: They've "improved" their user page with a new revision that makes my browser lag when I view it. Among Us for POTUS (talk) 02:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Yep, it's laggin' pretty bad, especially due to the fact that they've added 861,441 bytes onto their userpage in one edit. Don't click it though... it'll only make it lag, again. Just showin' the diff if needed. Sarrail (talk) 02:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I restored to it a less disruptive version that is a bit under 4k bytes. Among Us for POTUS (talk) 03:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Actually not sure if they just don't understand the purpose of Wikipedia or something. See here for example: [82]. They've stopped the weird "North Korea is gay" stuff but they now seem to have instead confused their user page for a talk page. Among Us for POTUS (talk) 03:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Huh. Interesting. #WP:NOTHERE. Sarrail (talk) 03:05, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

'Kay, they're blocked. I don't see a reason why to continue this discussion, now that they've been blocked indefinitely. Sarrail (talk) 03:23, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

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Revoke TPA for vandal

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[83] Among Us for POTUS (talk) 03:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 04:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikihounding

I had an incident of being wikihounded by User:Fdom5997 last year (December 2021, archived here). Specifically, it pertains to me trying to clean up or condense IPA charts of language pages, and their insistent that this is "unnecessary" (and also specially annoying or something?). I brought it here and it was resolved... until today, when they started doing it again. Only 3 incidents at the time of this message, so it's not a big deal yet. But this is a repeat offender, and so I'd rather nip it in the bud than wait. Eievie (talk) 05:07, 13 December 2022 (UTC)