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:::::::::::No. I think now that attempts at compromise are misguided. A primary argument of many of those seeking change is that all religions should be treated the same. That such stories should all be called myths. (Even if that's not the case now.) That position will never be satisfied by a solution that doesn't treat the Christian story the same as other religions. It's pretty hard to compromise on that front. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 08:42, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::No. I think now that attempts at compromise are misguided. A primary argument of many of those seeking change is that all religions should be treated the same. That such stories should all be called myths. (Even if that's not the case now.) That position will never be satisfied by a solution that doesn't treat the Christian story the same as other religions. It's pretty hard to compromise on that front. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 08:42, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Thank you for clarifying that you're not interested in compromise. That goes a long why to explaining '''why''' we get all these pointless repeated move requests, and shows the necessity for the moratorium. And you seem to be labouring under a misapprehension -- in fact, where other religions have a written creation narrative, the Wikipedia article typically uses the title of the narrative, without the word "myth." For example: [[Diné Bahaneʼ]], [[Sureq Galigo]], [[Enûma Eliš]], [[Barton Cylinder]], [[Gudea cylinders]], [[K.3364]], [[Debate between sheep and grain]]. It seems that what you really want is to treat Christianity '''differently''' from other religions. If the moratorium doesn't calm things down, it may be necessary to take this to ArbCom, since ArbCom is empowered to determine facts, which discussion-closers are not. -- [[Special:Contributions/101.117.110.223|101.117.110.223]] ([[User talk:101.117.110.223|talk]]) 00:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Thank you for clarifying that you're not interested in compromise. That goes a long why to explaining '''why''' we get all these pointless repeated move requests, and shows the necessity for the moratorium. And you seem to be labouring under a misapprehension -- in fact, where other religions have a written creation narrative, the Wikipedia article typically uses the title of the narrative, without the word "myth." For example: [[Diné Bahaneʼ]], [[Sureq Galigo]], [[Enûma Eliš]], [[Barton Cylinder]], [[Gudea cylinders]], [[K.3364]], [[Debate between sheep and grain]]. It seems that what you really want is to treat Christianity '''differently''' from other religions. If the moratorium doesn't calm things down, it may be necessary to take this to ArbCom, since ArbCom is empowered to determine facts, which discussion-closers are not. -- [[Special:Contributions/101.117.110.223|101.117.110.223]] ([[User talk:101.117.110.223|talk]]) 00:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::ArbCom is ''not'' empowered to determine facts, although it can create its own ones. [[User:Hawkeye7|Hawkeye7]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye7|talk]]) 22:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I have been writing in the third person, and not mentioning the thoughts of specific editors. I have been trying to describe the broader problems with this debate. You wrote about me, rudely. Fuck off. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 00:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I have been writing in the third person, and not mentioning the thoughts of specific editors. I have been trying to describe the broader problems with this debate. You wrote about me, rudely. Fuck off. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 00:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Anonymous user, your examples imply that equal treatment for the Christian creation myth would be to name it after a myth's title. However, that would not work since [[Book of Genesis]] already exists ([[Genesis]] alone is a disambig), with this particular article referring specially to the creation myth in its first couple chapters. Creation myths without titles have names like [[Islamic creation myth]], [[Japanese creation myth]], [[Chinese creation myth]], [[Mandé creation myth]], [[Sumerian creation myth]], [[Serer creation myth]], [[Ancient Egyptian creation myths]], [[Mesoamerican creation myths]], and so on from [[Ainu creation myth]] to [[Zuni creation myth]]. Those are the articles which proponents of ''Genesis creation myth'' wish to be consistent with. Though since their form specifically is ''<nowiki>[region or people]</nowiki> creation myth'', an argument might be made that ''Judeochristian creation myth'' or ''Abrahamic creation myth'' is more in line with them. ~ [[User:Robin Lionheart|Röbin Liönheart]] ([[User talk:Robin Lionheart|talk]]) 08:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Anonymous user, your examples imply that equal treatment for the Christian creation myth would be to name it after a myth's title. However, that would not work since [[Book of Genesis]] already exists ([[Genesis]] alone is a disambig), with this particular article referring specially to the creation myth in its first couple chapters. Creation myths without titles have names like [[Islamic creation myth]], [[Japanese creation myth]], [[Chinese creation myth]], [[Mandé creation myth]], [[Sumerian creation myth]], [[Serer creation myth]], [[Ancient Egyptian creation myths]], [[Mesoamerican creation myths]], and so on from [[Ainu creation myth]] to [[Zuni creation myth]]. Those are the articles which proponents of ''Genesis creation myth'' wish to be consistent with. Though since their form specifically is ''<nowiki>[region or people]</nowiki> creation myth'', an argument might be made that ''Judeochristian creation myth'' or ''Abrahamic creation myth'' is more in line with them. ~ [[User:Robin Lionheart|Röbin Liönheart]] ([[User talk:Robin Lionheart|talk]]) 08:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
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*'''Endorse''' - No point in debating this over and over. Moratorium might be a good idea at [[Sarah Jane Brown]] as an alternative to arbitration. [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 18:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' - No point in debating this over and over. Moratorium might be a good idea at [[Sarah Jane Brown]] as an alternative to arbitration. [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 18:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' - too much time is wasted on repeating the same request over and over. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 21:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' - too much time is wasted on repeating the same request over and over. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 21:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' - This does not set a precedent. Admins have often laid down conditions on articles. And there are a small number of articles that seem to have endless and unproductive move discussions. I support a 12-month ban on moves on this article, and a more general (but shorter) one on initiating repeated requests on all articles. [[User:Hawkeye7|Hawkeye7]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye7|talk]]) 22:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)


== RFPP is once more flooded, mops to hand ==
== RFPP is once more flooded, mops to hand ==

Revision as of 22:21, 7 May 2014

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      Other areas tracking old discussions

      Administrative discussions

      Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1166#User:清风与明月_Continued_Tendentious_editing.

      (Initiated 16 days ago on 5 September 2024) Conversation seems to have ended, consensus seems to be that the user is an issue, but no clear consensus on what to do about it. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 02:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

      Requests for comment

      Talk:Censorship_by_copyright#Cartoons

      (Initiated 123 days ago on 22 May 2024) – RfC template was removed by a bot a few weeks ago, but this still needs a formal close. I am involved so I'd prefer to see someone else do it, particularly as I believe the discussion ended up endorsing my viewpoint. --Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here 03:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 444#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues

      (Initiated 111 days ago on 3 June 2024) Initial close has been overturned at review. A new close is required. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Surely someone wants to be taken to review and shouted at, even if just for the experience. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Anyone want a closer's barnstar? (okay but seriously maybe we should just panel close this one, if only to prevent any further disputes.) --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Panel close is probably a good idea if we can get a panel together. Loki (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Titles of European monarchs

      (Initiated 91 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      (Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Indeed. Also a discussion at Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion#Some holistic solution is needed to closing numerous move requests for names of royals, but that dates back to April. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Had I not !voted, I would probably close this with "why in all hell did you think opening an RfC with nine options, many of which are very similar, would be a good way to find consensus?!?". We probably need a guideline advising against such inane choices. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:01, 20 September 2024 (UTC) [reply]

      Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election#RfC: Inclusion of parties in the Infobox

      (Initiated 76 days ago on 8 July 2024). Ready for closing, last !vote was 12 July by looks of it. CNC (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Gaza_Health_Ministry_qualifier

      (Initiated 68 days ago on 15 July 2024) -sche (talk) 15:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      There have been only 5 !votes since end July (out of 50+) so this could be closed now. Selfstudier (talk) 10:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      +1 please close it thanks. NadVolum (talk) 13:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Anyone taking a look at this? Pretty please. Selfstudier (talk) 12:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Was just about to submit this. Adding my comment for bumping. - Ïvana (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#RfC on the inclusion of alleged Ukrainian misuse of civilian infrastructure for military operations

      (Initiated 59 days ago on 24 July 2024) Discussion slowed. Last comment 13 August 2024. Moderately complex RfC with multiple options. Thank you in advance to the closer. JDiala (talk) 05:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Kamala_Harris#RFC:_How_to_refer_to_the_African_ancestry_of_Kamala_Harris?

      (Initiated 52 days ago on 31 July 2024) Requesting closure on this discussion which has not had a new comment in a week when excluding its brief archival. The discussion is lengthy and split into multiple sections. Note: The article and talk page are considered to be a contentious topic. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#RFC_Palestine

      (Initiated 46 days ago on 6 August 2024) Talk:Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#RFC_Palestine Hi! calling for closers for this one, as well as interpretation of whether content should be placed back in in case of WP:NOCONSENSUS. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 02:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia talk:Notability (species)#Proposal to adopt this guideline

      (Initiated 43 days ago on 9 August 2024)

      Wikipedia talk:Notability (species)#Proposal to adopt this guideline is WP:PROPOSAL for a new WP:SNG. The discussion currently stands at 503 comments from 78 editors or 1.8 tomats of text, so please accept the hot beverage of your choice ☕️ and settle in to read for a while. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Imane Khelif#RfC on weight of "misinformation" in lead

      (Initiated 40 days ago on 12 August 2024) Discussion has slowed. Last comment 24/08/2024. TarnishedPathtalk 04:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Herrenvolk democracy#RfC Should the Israeli Flag be displayed in the article?

      (Initiated 39 days ago on 13 August 2024) Discussion has been open for more than 30 days. I believe the result is pretty clear however am involved and another editor has objected to my interpretation of the consensus. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      (Initiated 39 days ago on 13 August 2024) Last comment 20 days ago. Anomie⚔ 11:58, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Philippe Pétain#Rfc for Lede Image of Philippe Pétain

      (Initiated 36 days ago on 17 August 2024) Requesting immediate procedural close for Talk:Philippe Pétain#Rfc for Lede Image of Philippe Pétain, because it is blocked on a Wikipedia policy with legal implications that no one at the Rfc is qualified to comment on, namely U.S. copyright law about an image. At a minimum, it will require action at Commons about whether to delete an image, and likely they will have to consult Wikimedia legal for an interpretation in order to resolve the issue. Under current circumstances, it is a waste of editor time to leave the Rfc open, and is impossible to reliably evaluate by a closer, and therefore should be procedurally closed without assessment, the sooner the better. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      • It's not appropriate to make an immediate procedural close in those circumstances. Wikipedians routinely make decisions about copyright, even those Wikipedians who aren't US attorneys. This is not a high-drama situation. However I'm starting to wonder if the RFC nominator might be on a crusade about our lede images for prominent WW2 figures, and if so, whether they might benefit from a sysop's advice and guidance about overusing our RFC process.—S Marshall T/C 09:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I'll do this, although I'm going to do the other close I committed to first. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        @Compassionate727 FWIW the image was kept at Commons and here's a bit of a follow up on the copyright stuff discussed afterward.[1] Nemov (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

      Deletion discussions

      XFD backlog
      V Jun Jul Aug Sep Total
      CfD 0 0 7 20 27
      TfD 0 0 1 10 11
      MfD 0 0 2 5 7
      FfD 0 0 1 0 1
      RfD 0 0 0 26 26
      AfD 0 0 0 0 0

      Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 19#Category:Wikipedia utility templates

      (Initiated 42 days ago on 10 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 19#Category:NASCAR by year

      (Initiated 34 days ago on 19 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 September 6#Category:Technical universities and colleges in Germany

      (Initiated 31 days ago on 21 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 30#Category:Fictional Bengali Hindus

      (Initiated 22 days ago on 30 August 2024) Another easy one :) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 15:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

       Done —Compassionate727 (T·C) 12:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 September 7#Category:Suicides by carbon monoxide poisoning in Japan

      (Initiated 14 days ago on 7 September 2024) I think this is an easy one, both to close and to implement – {{db-xfd}} is your friend for non-admins :D HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

       Done —Compassionate727 (T·C) 12:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 September 11#LGBT nominations which were opposed at CFDS

      (Initiated 10 days ago on 11 September 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 16:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 September 13#LGBT articles

      (Initiated 8 days ago on 13 September 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:23, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

      Other types of closing requests

      Talk:Electrogravitics#Redo of merger with Biefeld-Brown effect

      (Initiated 290 days ago on 6 December 2023) a merge discussion related to Electrogravitics and Biefeld–Brown effect now without comments for 4 months; requesting a close by any uninvolved editor. Klbrain (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk: Hurricane Isaias#Proposing merger of tornado outbreak

      (Initiated 139 days ago on 5 May 2024) Discussion went on for 3 months and seems to have stalled. 35.0.62.211 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 194#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

      (Initiated 117 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

       Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      @Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      @Frostly Just checking, would you like someone else to help with this? Soni (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      @Frostly: also checking in. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Hi Voorts and Soni, thanks for the pings! I've unfortunately been in the hospital for the past week but am now feeling better. I apologize for the long delay in putting out the close and appreciate your messages! Best, — Frostly (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm sorry to hear that; a week-long hospitalization is not fun. But, I'm glad that you're feeling better. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 19:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Ping @Frostly again (I saw you've been editing Commons). Hope your still better, and if you don't feel like doing this one anymore, just let people know. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

      (Initiated 115 days ago on 30 May 2024) Contentious merge discussion requiring uninvolved closer. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:2024 Nuseirat_rescue operation#Proposed_merge_of_Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre_into_2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation

      (Initiated 105 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR (Please ping on reply) 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Page size

      (Initiated 83 days ago on 30 June 2024) Proposal to split RS/PS. Discussion has died down. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:List of common misconceptions#Split proposal

      (Initiated 76 days ago on 8 July 2024) – Editors would feel more comfortable if an uninvolved closer provided a clear statement about whether a consensus to WP:SPLIT exists, and (if so) whether to split this list into two or three lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk: Hurricane Isabel#Proposed merging of Effects of Hurricane Isabel in New York and New England, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania into Hurricane Isabel

      (Initiated 41 days ago on 12 August 2024) No comments on two weeks; consensus on the merge is unclear, particularly for Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware. 107.122.189.12 (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Imane Khelif#Proposal to create and split off new article "2024 Olympic Boxing Controversy"

      (Initiated 36 days ago on 16 August 2024) Discussion has slowed. No comments in a few days. TarnishedPathtalk 02:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climbing#Suggesting_a_change_of_WP:WikiProject_Climbing/Article_recommendations

      (Initiated 27 days ago on 26 August 2024) I'd like a closure of this discussion, which was preceded by this discussion:Talk:Cobra_Crack#MOS:ITAL Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Twitter#Proposed_moratorium

      (Initiated 26 days ago on 27 August 2024) Needs a closed from an experienced user. Cremastra (talk) 11:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Talk:Mamie Lake (Wisconsin)#Merge Proposal

      (Initiated 15 days ago on 6 September 2024) Discussion has stopped. Not a snow close so needs the kind support of an independent closer please. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

      Move request moratorium at Genesis creation narrative

      I have just closed a requested move discussion at Talk:Genesis creation narrative#Suggested_move. It was the 12th move discussion on this page since January 2010 (which may be some sort of a record), and the second move discussion in 3 months. I have therefore imposed a 12-month moratorium on further move requests.

      I don't recall doing this before, so I am unsure if I should log this somewhere ... which is why I have left a note here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:52, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      You did well IMO. Irondome (talk) 01:05, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Good call. I don't think there's a log for this, but am not positive. Miniapolis 01:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      When administrator rights are granted like this by administrators to other administrators, could you guys at least indicate that somewhere? I don't see any place where it says that administrators are allowed to impose a moratorium on conversations on talkpages. This is a wholly new right for the sainted class.
      Alternatively, you could have done this as a part of discretionary sanctions, but what are the discretionary sanctions? I have no doubt that administrators like to give themselves new rights to control the community like this, but as long as it's not in WP:ADMIN, I think you guys shouldn't be doing this sort of thing.
      If this becomes a thing you guys feel empowered to do, it's invariably going to end up in arbitration. The whole point of Wikipedia's consensus model is to encourage discussion. So if discussion is now to be discouraged, then what is there to be done? Note that the discussion was closed "no consensus" which necessarily defaults to the wrong version. You are basically declaring winners by default whether you like it or not. In contrast, WP:RPP protections for one whole year are extremely rare things. Why should a move moratorium be so cavalierly entered?
      jps (talk) 07:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      To be clear, I don't think this conversation has ended as I don't think a coherent voice has been heard yet and that's why I'm not convinced that closing the discussion makes any sense. Keep it open for one year, if you like, and then have someone evaluate what happens. But by closing like this, you are just asking for people to stop until May 2, 2014 when they will just pick up where they left off. Why not let the conversation continue. What's the WP:NOTPAPER harm? I think you admins may not like reading such conversations to try to figure out who is right and who is wrong, but that's not a good reason to stop a conversation. It's just not. jps (talk) 07:48, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, those who have a view different from the status quo will see the close and moratorium as a "win" granted to the other side, when clearly there was no consensus. That's not "no consensus to change". There was very strong argument in favour of change. It's just "no consensus". It's an unfortunate quirk of our policies that will now allow those who have "won" to say "You tried to change this and failed", implying that they are right. And that's not at all what has been demonstrated. A brave administrator would not just count votes, but would consider quality of argument and make a ruling. HiLo48 (talk) 08:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      The ruling would be that there is no consensus to change. The current title does not provably violate policy. Sure, it's asserted to violate policy, but that's just an opinion and it's not held by people like Jimbo, according to his stated opinion on the matter, so arguing that it is, is futile. I say this as one who strongly prefers the "myth" title. Guy (Help!) 10:53, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @HiLo48 It's a bit tedious to spend time weighing a discussion in accordance with WP:RMCI#Determining_consensus, and then be told that "a brave administrator would not just count votes, but would consider quality of argument". AGF, please. I am quite willing to go against the numbers where the circumstances justify it. (See for example crowned crane, Chipewyan people, and Hillary Clinton).
      I did weigh the arguments, discarded those which were not founded in policy, and was left with a set of good policy-based arguments on both sides. Having judged that both sides had well-founded arguments, the job of a closing admin is explicitly not to make a WP:SUPERVOTE and decide which set of arguments she prefers. The admin's job is to weigh strength of policy-based argument and strength of support for them. In a case such as this, where there are broadly similar levels of support for well-founded policy-based arguments, it would be entirely wrong for an admin to impose their own choice between the two sides, and closures such as that are rightly and properly overturned at move review.
      Where there is no consensus, policy is maintain the status quo. In situations such as this, where there is a persistent failure to reach consensus on a choice between two sides, that confers a first-mover advantage. The community may want to consider the notion that in cases such as this of long-term lack of consensus between 2 options, pages could be cycled between the two alternatives; but no such policy exists for now, and WP:TITLECHANGES prioritises stability.
      I think that a better way forward would be for the two sides to prepare for the end of the moratorium by planning a structured decision-making process, such as has been used for pending changes (e.g. the 2014 RFC). Breaking the question down and separately assessing consensus on various propositions would be much more informative for all involved, and it is more likely to produce a clear outcome than yet another round of free-form discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:44, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I understand your motivation, but there is no indication that drive-by closure and a rude "work it out yourselves, but don't bother me for a year" is the right direction here. I'm happy to start a structured conversation that would not have an outcome, but I'll note that I tried to do just this without a WP:RM and instead others took it upon themselves to claim a WP:RM. So if I wanted to start a discussion about how to start a structured discussion, am I banned from doing that on the talkpage? jps (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      jps, a little more AGF please. This wasn't a "drive-by-closure", and I didn't say "don't bother me for a year". My concern is not for myself, but for the editors who have been dragged into rehashing the same round-in-circles freeform discussion a dozen times in 4 years.
      There isn't going to be another discussion for 12 months, so best to leave it for a while. But as you get towards the end of the moratorium, you could start seeking out the editors with whom you most strongly disagree, and start a discussion with them about identifying the issues at stake on both and starting a discussion on how to address those questions, separately. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      User:BrownHairedGirl, you didn't address my question. Am I banned from discussing how to start a structured discussion on the talkpage? jps (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      jps Hmm, "best to leave it for a while" was my attempt to answer your question, but you seem to want it spelled out in very precise terms, so I will try to make it as clear as I can be.
      You are banned from starting a substantive discussion for another 12 months. There is no point in dragging editors into a 12-month meta-discussion about what to do next year, so don't start the talks-about-talks now. I was trying not to be too prescriptive about when it might be appropriate to start talks about talks, but if you want a precise time ... I'd say that 1 months before the expiry of the moratorium would be quite enough. That's 2nd April 2015. Is that clear enough? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:17, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, thank you, that's quite clear. Just so I am 100% understanding, no one is allowed to discuss moving or renaming that particular article until 2 May 2015 or have meta-discussions about moving or renaming that particular article until 2 April 2015. And how is this to be enforced? Should we come to you every time we see an infraction or report it to this noticeboard? Or should we simply remove the talkpage comment? Or should we archive it with a collapse box? What are the parameters by which the enforcement will occur? jps (talk) 21:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      jps, please relax a little. Honestly, all this is about is simply that repeated discussions are going nowhere and wasting editorial time and effort ... so please everybody, just drop the issue for a while and get on with other stuff.
      If anyone starts down that path in the meantime, any other editor can close the discussion by noting the moratorium and hatting it with {{subst:archive top}}/{{subst:archive bottom}} ... and if anyone wants to contest that, ask for assistance at WP:ANI. There is no need for any enforcement to involve me rather than any other admin.
      Hope this helps!--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:42, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • In practice such moratoriums - 3 months, 6 months, 12 months (most usually 6 months) - are not uncommon in RM closers' instructions. However they are not always of the high quality of BrownHairedGirl's moratorium here. An informal log somewhere would be helpful. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:45, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Shall I fix this? Can you identify any other RM moratoria in place? jps (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I'd have to have a hunt, a quick request at Talk:RM would probably yield up to a dozen examples. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not seeing the need for a centralized log - what would it be used for? In each case the RM moratorium is noted on the article talk page, where any admin about to make a change, or user about to request a change, can see it. Why would someone need to see it elsewise? I think WP:BURO applies here. BMK (talk) 15:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Logging is a good idea because it guarantees transparency in what are often contentious decisions. It encourages a kind of institutional memory which is important when looking at longterm development of a situation. That's why it is done for discretionary sanctions, for example. jps (talk) 16:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I wonder if Wikipedia can ever find a solution to problems like this where a decision that there is no consensus to change, plus a moratorium on future attempts to change, delivers precisely the result sought by those wanting no change, and is seen by both sides as a win for them? HiLo48 (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I also endorse BrownHairedGirl's handling of this issue. Cutting down the pointless move discussions (which are doomed to end as "no consensus," since it always seems to be the same alternate title that's suggested) to once a year is a good idea. May I also add that this talk of "winning" and "losing" has an unfortunate taste of WP:BATTLEGROUND about it. -- 101.117.2.111 (talk) 04:00, 4 May 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]

      Perhaps, but that's just dismissing a real view obviously held by many. Labelling it doesn't change that view. And maybe that repeated alternative is a bloody good one. That it's the same each time probably points to that, rather than it being wrong. Any objective observer would have to admit that those seeking change aren't a bunch of irrational bigots. Dismissing their request because it's the same each time is not helpful. The arguments against are also the same each time. Will you similarly dismiss them? HiLo48 (talk) 18:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      As closer, I do not see either side of the discussion is irrational or bigoted. Nor do I see any such suggestion from the IP above. Sure, there was some ILIKEIT/IDONTLKEIT commentary on both sides, but there were also a lot of well-reasoned, policy-based arguments. However, endlessly discussing the same thing without ever reaching a consensus is not a productive use of anyone's time. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:22, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Agreed, hence my post beginning "I wonder..." above. Even if arguments are evenly balanced on both sides, what we get from this is a status quo result. That might sound fair, but in fact it's simply one that reflects the thoughts of the side that got in first, and is diametrically opposed to that preferred by a lot of editors with well reasoned arguments. We ARE declaring an absolute winner, when in fact it's been a pretty even fight. The well regraded views of half our editors are now being suppressed by the other half. I wish there was a more even solution. HiLo48 (talk) 21:02, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @HiLo48 When there is a lack of consensus (as is repeatedly the case here), any choice of title will be unfair on half the editors who expressed a view.
      The question of what to do has been answered in policy. See WP:No consensus: If an article title has been stable for a long time, then the long-standing article title is kept. If it has never been stable, or has been unstable for a long time, then it is moved to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub. In this case we have an unusual situation, where the title has been broadly stable, but only due to a lack of consensus. There is a case for arguing that this extraordinarily oft-repeated evidence of a lack of consensus is a form of instability, but that has not been how I have seen the policy interpreted before. If you wanted to make the case that this long-term-no-consensus amounts to instability and therefore justfies a move to "the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub" ... then feel free to open a move review. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:34, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      No BHG, your close certainly fits with policy. It cannot be criticised on that front. But I'd say that the multiple move requests clearly do demonstrate instability. Especially since there is so much drama every time a discussion arises. And it's virtually impossible to see any form of compromise that ever would please both sides. The positions seem so diametrically opposed. I just wish there was a way of demonstrating to our readers at article level that, while the current article title is the one reached according to our policies, a very significant number of editors think it's a very poor title. HiLo48 (talk) 22:17, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      So far, there have been very few attempts at an actual compromise, in the form of something that was not perfect but maybe acceptable to both sides. Trying compromise language—language that is neither narrative nor myth—would work better than repeating exactly the same proposal six times (so far). Perhaps something like Genesis creation story (I'm sure someone could do better) would be a more acceptable alternative than the oft-misunderstood "myth" language. You have a whole year in which to think up a compromise. Good luck, WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:09, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      What we need is a discussion committee with nominees from all sides. I know exactly who I would nominate to be on it, but Wikipedia doesn't like such things. jps (talk) 00:07, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @HiLo48 Thanks for confirming that my close fits policy, tho I wasn't actually fishing for that support!
      My suggestion related to the narrower question of what to with this persistent lack of consensus. The reason I suggested move review was purely that within the context of persistent no-consensus, I think there is a case for treating it as unstable title and threrefore reverting to the title of the first non-stub. I don't want to set to create any precedent myself, but I think that a move review on that narrow point could be interesting. Or maybe it would be better approached as an RFC on the principle? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:28, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Creation accounts in Genesis? StAnselm (talk) 02:46, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      No. I think now that attempts at compromise are misguided. A primary argument of many of those seeking change is that all religions should be treated the same. That such stories should all be called myths. (Even if that's not the case now.) That position will never be satisfied by a solution that doesn't treat the Christian story the same as other religions. It's pretty hard to compromise on that front. HiLo48 (talk) 08:42, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Thank you for clarifying that you're not interested in compromise. That goes a long why to explaining why we get all these pointless repeated move requests, and shows the necessity for the moratorium. And you seem to be labouring under a misapprehension -- in fact, where other religions have a written creation narrative, the Wikipedia article typically uses the title of the narrative, without the word "myth." For example: Diné Bahaneʼ, Sureq Galigo, Enûma Eliš, Barton Cylinder, Gudea cylinders, K.3364, Debate between sheep and grain. It seems that what you really want is to treat Christianity differently from other religions. If the moratorium doesn't calm things down, it may be necessary to take this to ArbCom, since ArbCom is empowered to determine facts, which discussion-closers are not. -- 101.117.110.223 (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      ArbCom is not empowered to determine facts, although it can create its own ones. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I have been writing in the third person, and not mentioning the thoughts of specific editors. I have been trying to describe the broader problems with this debate. You wrote about me, rudely. Fuck off. HiLo48 (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Anonymous user, your examples imply that equal treatment for the Christian creation myth would be to name it after a myth's title. However, that would not work since Book of Genesis already exists (Genesis alone is a disambig), with this particular article referring specially to the creation myth in its first couple chapters. Creation myths without titles have names like Islamic creation myth, Japanese creation myth, Chinese creation myth, Mandé creation myth, Sumerian creation myth, Serer creation myth, Ancient Egyptian creation myths, Mesoamerican creation myths, and so on from Ainu creation myth to Zuni creation myth. Those are the articles which proponents of Genesis creation myth wish to be consistent with. Though since their form specifically is [region or people] creation myth, an argument might be made that Judeochristian creation myth or Abrahamic creation myth is more in line with them. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 08:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Let's not start debating the title again here. This discussion is just about the moratorium. StAnselm (talk) 08:59, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Let me get this straight...brown haired girl 'impossed' a moratorium? She can't do that. Seriously, this is bull(self edited).--Maleko Mela (talk) 00:46, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I have imposed moratoriums in move request closes on occasion, most famously after the first major Chelsea Manning move discussion. I was asked at that time how much authority I had to do so, and I replied then (as I would contend now) that any administrator has as much authority to take such an action as the community is willing to recognize. This is informed by the reasoning behind the decision to impose one. I'm sure that an administrator who imposed, for example, a ten year moratorium on future discussion of a proposal would not be taken very seriously. A year-long moratorium is probably on the outside of what is feasible, but is entirely understandable given exceptional circumstances. I would imagine that such an imposition, like any other part of the close, is subject to consideration in a move review. I would definitely support having a single centralized page listing all move moratoriums in place at any given time. bd2412 T 01:01, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      If any editor wants to open a move review, then the moratorium would of course be up for review too. If the community chooses to overturn it or alter it's length or whatever, that's fine by me.
      My concern was simply to break the extraordinarily cycle of rapidly-repeated inconclusive discussions which rehash the same arguments at enormous length. If the community wants that cycle to continue, so be it; or if it wants to find some completely different way of resolving this dispute, that's even better. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:31, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Had I known you imposed a moratorium with the Manning case I would never have accepted/supported you to be a part of the Clinton closure. This isn't an abuse of tools since you didn't use any, but no one has to recognize anything just because..."you say so". And I do not. This is not a consensus discussion. Any such discussion would take place on the article talk page. Unless arbcom has decided to make such a moratorium as part of official sanctions this is little more than bullying others and using your position as an admin to take advantage of a situation. there is no policy or guideline that allows this. Seriously.--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:19, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @User:Mark Miller, I think you have misunderstood me. BrownHairedGirl did not impose a moratorium at Chelsea Manning; I did. She was not involved in that closure (and I was not involved in this one, or in the HRC closure). bd2412 T 13:19, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Wow...that was really hard to find this post after opening the editing window. Thanks for explaining that and sorry for the mix up. keeping who said what straight is becoming something of a headache now.--Maleko Mela (talk) 19:53, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Endorse BrownHairedGirl's action per DISRUPT - always the same apples-to-oranges argument, nothing new the last several go's. We need to put apples (significantly widely held beliefs with extensive cited controversy about the genre) into the same labeling with oranges (nearly extinct beliefs with hardly any cited controversy about the genre), all for the sake of "consistency" - a slippery slope. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:35, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      • comment if we are considering some sort of moratorium, then the debate should have been more structured and the close some more detailed discussion of numbers and policy rather than just "close as no consensus", which the last two do - this just emphasises a first move advantage in these type of situations. I'd suggest a more detailed rationale and structured discussion with broader input like some other closes - 12 Requested Moves suggests it is a topic which deserves a more detailed and structured close and then a moratorium. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I think I agree. Like: All such discussions on this page are temporarily suspended until further notice. Interested parties are to repair to WP:Mediation to in good faith explore compromises or the basis and wording (with respect to background of the dispute, counterpoints, policy and sources) for a fully laid out community wide RfC to be held on a neutral page and widely advertised." Or something like that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:07, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm also concerned with the simple "close as no consensus" and the first move advantage. In something like this we need a much more detailed analysis. "No consensus" often seems like an easy out to me and can allow a minority to always have their way. Dougweller (talk) 11:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      That is a discussion specific to that article. What I'd like to see here is someone pointing to a policy or discussion that gives any single user (with the possible exception of Jimbo) the right to unilaterally declare any discussion closed for 12 months. Joefromrandb (talk) 04:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      FWIW, this discussion is also specific to that article. Jsharpminor (talk) 04:12, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Strong endorse. Regardless of anyone's personal feelings, this issue has not been settled and we're here to build an encyclopedia, not fight for our personal viewpoints. These discussions that have been closed for a year have not been resolved in the previous 4 years and previous 12 discussions; it's time to move on. Jsharpminor (talk) 04:07, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I can't actually endorse, as I clearly object to anyone imposing sanctions on their own, but now that the discussion on the article talk page has been closed by an uninvolved admin and this is now the centralized discussion (if this is actually where all these moratorium discussions take place we may need to move the Hillary discussion if it is still open) I would certainly !vote (as I did in the other discussion) to Support a moratorium. This is not about beliefs, at least it shouldn't be. It is about whether or not the community feels that there is enough consensus to ask that no further move requests be made for a period of time. I generally feel 6 months is a good period, but if 6 months...why not a year. I do, however hope this will be added as a dislaimer on the talk page so that other users not seeing this discussion or not around at this time will have the proper notifications to not start another move discussion.--Maleko Mela (talk) 08:30, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse the actions by BHG and the moratorium itself. I strongly support a move to creation myth, but that's not the issue here. The issue is disruption of Wikipedia with continual going-in-circles move request which we can do without. The question whether an admin can/may unilaterally impose a moratorium are understandable, but in the end just rule-wonkery. If there were significant dispute over the moratorium itself (but there isn't) we would be in a different situation, but we aren't, which renders the meta-issue moot. Spare the discussion for when there is actually something to discuss. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse. I noted on Jimbo's talk page that perhaps things like an RM moratorium should be discussed and allowed to gain consensus prior to implementation, but putting the cart before the horse in this case won't change the end result. The RMs have obviously long since stopped being productive, and it is time that the involved editors spend some time on other things. They can always reconvene in a year for another round of "all talk, no action". Resolute 14:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse At some point, enough is enough. BHG did the right thing. Reopening the same move proposal just 3 months after it had failed for the 11th time fits under the broad definition of disruptive editing, and fashioning a reasonable remedy for disruption should be within an uninvolved admins discretion. Maybe people could constructively spend the next 12 months trying to find a process that could lead to a compromise.--agr (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment It seems seriously odd that an admin can impose a moratorium on the justification of "enough already" and then get community consensus. Not to mention that this basically kills off all chance of compromise for twelve months, since it can't even be discussed in any way until that time.Rwenonah (talk) 23:27, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Apparently quite a few people would agree with you. One could look at it that way, or perhaps the alternative is to view it as a SNOW issue, especially in light of the overwhelming consensus we have here to create a moratorium. Perhaps outcomes so severe (don't even talk about it for a year) ought to be discussed first in any case, but at that point the only question is should that have happened first. I see very few people questioning if it (the moratorium) should have happened at all. Jsharpminor (talk) 23:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      It sets a strange precedent. Could an administrator shut down this discussion on the basis that they felt it had gone on long enough and preclude all discussion of the topic for a year? I should hope not. Rwenonah (talk) 23:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Of course I should hope not as well -- the first time. But we're not talking about the first time. We're talking about an argument that has gone on a dozen times, each time lasting weeks or months, over the course of the last 4 years. "No consensus" has been reached, nor is consensus likely to be reached in the near future without some form of structure being imposed on the discussion other than the freeform course that it always takes.
      The same people who are voting "Oppose" for the moratorium would be the first people to vote to shutter a discussion per SNOW were someone to restart it, mere days after its unresolved closure. All the moratorium does is saves a step in that process: any such discussion has been preemptively SNOWed until it expires. Jsharpminor (talk) 00:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I would just add that BHG promptly brought her moratorium here for review. Since, as you say, it would be completely inappropriate to restart the discussion this soon, were the moratorium to be rejected, no one would be inconvenienced in the slightest.--02:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
      • Oppose I have previously seen admins who included such moratoriums in their closes say that they were advisory, rather than binding. That seems to me the correct understanding. There is nothing in the policy on Requested Moves or elsewhere, as far as I can see, that gives admins the power to unilaterally ban RMs for a specified. I would agree that people should take a break here before recurring to the issue, but a year seems an unreasonably long time to me - six months might be a reasonable suggestion. Neljack (talk) 00:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse Regardless of the merits of the arguments to be made on either side, the behavior of repeatedly nominating something for a move request over and over becomes problematic. Such a moratorium frees up editors to use their skills improving other articles rather than rehashing the exact same stale arguments with the exact same group of combatants over and over again. This moratorium is a good idea. --Jayron32 00:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oppose While I don't disagree with the moratorium itself, the principles behind it and the precedents set by it are seriously flawed. Rwenonah (talk) 00:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse 12 move requests since 2010 is far too many. After reading the discussions, it seems to me that editors involved have better places to devote their time. So in place of topic bans, blocks or whatever for being disruptive, a moratorium is probably the best course. Moratoriums are placed by closers in various circumstances, and this one clearly fits the criteria. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 00:35, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse. A dozen move requests since 2010 is disruptive, as is making the exact same request just three months after the previous one failed. BHG was correct in placing the moratorium and made the correct call to seek approval here. Calidum Go Bruins! 03:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse By bringing the matter here BHG is making it clear that the moratorium is community supported (if this discussion so chooses; otherwise there is no moratorium). Accordingly, objections based on the horror of an admin imposing a solution do not apply. Time spent debating whether BHG filled in the correct forms is time wasted—what counts is whether it would be desirable for move requests to be debated every few weeks until eternity (no, it wouldn't—any decision would be better than that). Johnuniq (talk) 10:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Perpetual debate tries one's patience. It drags people into a debate almost unwillingly. This becomes a matter of endurance. I agree that someone should put the brakes on the reopening of this debate with a frequency that seems unreasonable to me. I guess I endorse. Disclosure: I am one who opposes the proposed move. Bus stop (talk) 11:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse I recently closed one RfC endorsing a moratorium because it was clear that the same old arguments had been repeated ad infinitum, & nothing would be accomplished by hashing them over & again except to exhaust one or the other party & achieve a change as if the discussion were a competition. (I set it indefinite on the basis that if someone had a point or argument that hadn't been expressed, then the discussion could be reopened; so the moratorium could be permanent -- or a few days.) Yes, consensus does change -- sometimes for the better, sometimes the worse -- but repeated restating of the same points only serves to harden opposing viewpoints, not to create a new consensus. People need to remember that silence & reflection are also part of the process. -- llywrch (talk) 15:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse - It may be uncertain whether individual admins can impose moratoria but a decision at WP:AN certainly can do so and that's where we are at now. A dozen move requests since 2010 certainly passes the barrier on whether a moratorium is reasonable. Would it seriously be beneficial to the encyclopedia to look forward to a new move proposal every three months from now on? There is some history of moratoria being imposed at WP:AE in contentious article naming disputes, for instance here though that was under Arbcom authority which is different from a community decision. EdJohnston (talk) 18:07, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse - No point in debating this over and over. Moratorium might be a good idea at Sarah Jane Brown as an alternative to arbitration. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse - too much time is wasted on repeating the same request over and over. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Endorse - This does not set a precedent. Admins have often laid down conditions on articles. And there are a small number of articles that seem to have endless and unproductive move discussions. I support a 12-month ban on moves on this article, and a more general (but shorter) one on initiating repeated requests on all articles. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      RFPP is once more flooded, mops to hand

      Another week, another "oh right, RFPP is a thing" reminder. Currently we're at 52 requests pending so we're in need of a little attention over there and probably something else so we don't have to post something at AN every few weeks it happens. tutterMouse (talk) 17:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I took care of a bunch of them. FYI, admins being in short supply is hardly a problem unique to RFPP. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      The rest have also been taken care of so thanks to those mucking in. I know admins being in short supply isn't unique to RFPP but would be nice if we could get some admins who'd have a regular look see every 24 hours or so to prevent backlogs of requests for something I see as fairly crucial to the wiki. tutterMouse (talk) 08:53, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      It [was|is|is going to be] finals week for most university students. I would expect some delay in admin tasks until mid-may. --Guerillero | My Talk 19:01, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Done some - more to do. Gotta do stuff elsewhere so anyone wanna do a few..is good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Askahrc

      I would like an uninvolved admin to notify Askahrc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) per WP:ARBPSCI. The user was minimallty active for some time then returned in 2013, since when they have been showing obsessive support of the agendas of Rupert Sheldrake and his supporter/apologist Deepak Chopra. The views of both are way out in the long grass. This user now purports to mediate in the "dispute" between SAS81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (an openly declared media representative for Chopra) and world+dog. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Askahrc/Archive is interesting too. This user appears to have lost interest in Wikipedia then returned after a hiatus to right great wrongs.

      SAS81 has engaged in forum shopping because he does not like the sound of the word "no". This is expected and normal under the circumstances. Several users in good standing are counselling him on the Wikipedia way of doing things, and this is ongoing. I mention this user only for completeness: I do not, at this time, advocate sanctions against him. Guy (Help!) 22:50, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Askahrc has already been notified of discretionary sanctions, and indeed has already been sanctioned for harassing users from behind a sockpuppet and for wasting the community's time.[2]
      There is a tabled request on him at AE, with "a low bar for reporting newer disruption". JzG, AE is likely a better place for this. I have evidence to submit about the recent continuation of his attacks against me (I was the one who exposed his sockpuppeting/harassing activities). vzaak 01:13, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not sure I understand the cause of this notification. I've been intermittently active (including long hiatuses during the discussion over Sheldrake) for many years and have always tried to keep a neutral, reasonable tone to my contributions. I've never shown support for the agenda of Rupert Sheldrake (I was arguing against the incivility of editors on the page, not for Sheldrake's views) or Deepak Chopra. If you disagree, please show a diff.
      I have edited numerous other pages besides Sheldrake (which I haven't touched in months) and Chopra, and was introduced to the Chopra issue independently via the BLP board, where I'd offered to other editors the exact same referencing help as I did for user:SAS81. On Chopra I've been trying to work with other editors to establish a best practice to determine which sources would be most valid and applicable, namely focusing on independent secondary sources. Far from endorsing his agenda, I have argued that many of SAS81's sources should not take priority over existing secondaries. I have been mediating with editors from very different view points and we've been making excellent progress. All of my suggestions have been for a stronger emphasis on reliable sources, not a relaxing of WP:FRINGE.
      I know we've had minor misunderstandings in the past, Guy, but I honestly don't see the issue here. Also, what do the SPI's Vzaak keeps pushing against me have to do with this? He got me warned once, then tried it again and was told by an admin that there was absolutely no connection. It's frustrating to try to contribute in good faith and be called "obsessed" over something I've never once spoken in favor of, let alone have editors repeatedly bring up this SPI issue. The Cap'n (talk) 01:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @user:Vzaak, see above about bringing up the SPI (over and over again), but otherwise what "continuing attacks" are you referring to? I've done nothing against you since bringing up my issues about you continually bringing cases against me (1, 2, 3) at AR. I honestly would like nothing more than to leave you alone and vice-versa. Voluntary IBAN?
      And yet again, what disruption? I'm mediating a discussion on citing secondary sources, how is that disruptive in any way? Let it go, Vzaak, I don't want to fight with you. The Cap'n (talk) 01:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I'm a little unclear about what is happening here. What is the problem actually? All I can add is that the Capn came into help on the BLP noticeboard and chimed in on my COI noticeboard and offered to help mediate. I also do not agree with Guy's assesment that I have a hard time being told 'no'. I was not aware he was in charge I was under the impression that Wikipedia is collaborative and Capn appears like a collaborative editor while Guy seems very angry that I am here. Capn has been very helpful in a very difficult situation, I wish there were a few more like him. SAS81 (talk) 02:23, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      @Askahrc responded to a request on the BLP notice board and has attempted to mediate what had become a contentious article. His actions and behaviour have been appropriate and neutral, and he has provided a somewhat even tone to a sometimes less than pleasant environment. I see no reason to have brought him here. (Littleolive oil (talk) 02:55, 4 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]
      @Vzaak: I agree, but I am involved so someone else needs to do it.
      @Littleolive oil: No they have not, because he is not "uninvolved" and he also has a significant history of POV-pushing, including sanctions in this exact area. Whoever should mediate (and actually mediation is not necessary, the iussue is just that the Chjopra media machine is trying to buff up the article), it should not and cannot be Askahrc. Guy (Help!) 10:10, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I do not think that Askahrc (talk · contribs) has the basic level of WP:COMPETENCE required to mediate. This may be due to the Dunning–Kruger effect. Either way, a bizarre and ineffective mediation attempt that will inevitably follow unless he is stopped is just going to create WP:DRAMA for the sake of it. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @JzG: Like anyone, you can submit a case to AE if there is sufficient disruption, with the "low bar" in mind. I haven't followed the recent Chopra events enough to address that. I was alarmed, however, to see Askahrc casting an aspersion on the Chopra talk page. If someone submits an AE I will add to it, otherwise we give WP:ROPE.
      However the issue with WP:ROPE is it is already getting long. Askahrc uses a sockpuppet to bully users, then brings an arbcom case about bullying. Askahrc promulgates battleground polemics on-wiki and off-wiki, then brings an arbcom case about battleground behavior. After being sanctioned for wasting the community's time with the first arbcom request, Askahrc submits a second time-wasting arbcom request. After arbitrators tell him to use AE in the first arbcom request, Askahrc brings another arbcom request without using AE (perhaps because there is a tabled AE request on him with a "low bar" for reporting future disruptions). After being caught harassing users with a sockpuppet, Askahrc uses AE and a formal arbcom request as a platform to cast evidence-free WP:ASPERSIONS against the person who caught him, and now after a hiatus Askahrc resumes it on the Chopra talk page. vzaak 14:32, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @Guy. Askahrc had edited the Deepak Chopra article before he responded at the BLP NB? I don't believe so. I have no comment on what is happening on the Chopra article at this time but, I think we can agree to disagree.
      I am differentiating between an editor who comes into an article as either an informal mediator or formal mediator per our DR system and one who is attempting to steer to a neutral ground, (Askharc) maintains civility and so far is not pushing an agenda on to the other editors. As an aside, I am always put off and become suspicious when an editor's past is dragged up in a dispute as is happening here as a means to support an attack on that editor. Such an action intended or not dirties the water so we can't see what if any the real issues are at this point in time, on this article. Whether the editor is successful at mediating a situation is not the issue. Mediation with even the most experienced mediators is often unsuccessful in my experience. What is at issue are the allegations made which I believe are unfounded.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]
      Thank you, littleolive oil, I appreciate you weighing in. I've shown numerous diffs documenting what we're working on in Chopra, while I still haven't seen any showing supposed disruption. A few rejoinders:
      • @vzaak I cast no aspersions on Chopra, I clarified an editors incongruous mention of SPI, and have backed it up with diffs. Speaking of aspersions, you are repeatedly misrepresenting events to suit your audience (and I think you could fit in your failed AE's "low bar for future disruptions" quote a few dozen more times, but be careful not to bring up "I'm interested in dated diffs of recent misconduct. No such diffs have been submitted here, and as such, I'd decline to act on the request as submitted."). You contradict yourself by saying that when the first arbreq was tabled I never sought the requested AE, then mention me harassing people with an an evidence-free AE. The truth is that I did file an AE as requested, it was filled with diffs of evidence and the admins agreed that the people it was brought against were acting inappropriately and needed to be sanctioned. Finally, you admit that you haven't actually read the progress on the Chopra page, but are apparently just endorsing this AN out of an assumption that anything I'm working on must be disruptive. You got me with one SPI and have been gunning for me since, even arguing with an admin when your second SPI got rejected. Please back off, Vzaak, this is inappropriate behavior.
      • @Barney the barney barney, claiming that I have a mental disorder that is typified by gross incompetence, extreme ignorance and even brain damage is a clear violation of WP:NPA, something you've been sanctioned for before. Again, you claim that mediation will inevitably become "bizarre and ineffective" unless I am stopped, without showing any diffs, examples or evidence of my supposedly outlandish behavior, nor of being familiar with the Chopra talk page.
      • @JzG, you said "because he is not "uninvolved" and he also has a significant history of POV-pushing, including sanctions in this exact area," which is factually incorrect. I've never worked on the Chopra page before the BLP, I've never been sanctioned for POV-pushing and despite people like Barney (who has misled you before) asserting otherwise, I have never seen a single diff showing any POV-pushing on my part. I chimed in briefly on the Sheldrake page, but pretty much all of my effort there was insisting editors needed to be more civil and stop issuing AN's, AE's and SPI's against the people who disagreed with them. The result was that I've been since hit with AN's, AE's and SPI's. Take what you will from that, but my participation on WP has always been to increase neutrality and sourcing, NOT to push a POV that I don't even agree with.
      Basically, I feel like I'm being presented as the boogeyman, but no one has actually presented any evidence of these grave disruptions I'm supposedly involved in. Instead I'm looking at assertions, personal attacks and more assertions. I'm getting really tired of logging in to pursue a hobby and dealing with senseless hostility from the same exact people over and over again. With all due respect to those involved, spend your time making WP better instead of following people around and trying to get them banned. The Cap'n (talk) 17:17, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      The only drama I see being caused is by a number of the editors commenting here who keep on pushing this battleground mentality and don't want to drop it. In my COIN, an uninvolved admin even weighed in on the activity of 'skeptics' on the page and mentioning directly that it makes the community look bad. Capn agreed to help mediate in that COI because this admin was asking if there was any uninvolved editors who could help bring a balance. Capn offered. Other editors have PM'd me telling me they don't want to get too involved because of this harassment. In the meantime I'm still getting pinged and one of the editors here (vzaak) who is not even involved in editing the article is bringing up some conspiracy plot they believe either I or capn is involved in. I'd like to offer a solution to this rather bizarre environment. Let's just focus on content. If we do that then problem is solved. SAS81 (talk) 17:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I simply asked why you brought me into it, and the answer you proffered didn't make sense. I had a right to ask. I didn't say you were part of a conspiracy.
      Regarding your concern about "skeptics" looking bad, the issue is that Askahrc had previously been sockpuppeting in the role of a "skeptic" harassing users and issuing threats in an effort to make "skeptics" look bad.[3] On the Deepak Chopra page, he has continued his effort to discredit me as retribution for catching him sockpuppeting. This behavior is not acceptable.
      Incidentally, I have never called myself a "skeptic" and I don't associate with any such groups. The primary problem I see with the "Guerrilla Skeptics" is their stupid name. If a group of regular, non-misbehaving Wikipedia editors call themselves "The Misbehaving Wikipedia Editors", and then they roll their eyes when people accuse them of misbehaving, that is stupid. vzaak 18:20, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Littleolive oil (talk · contribs) has apparently taken askahrc (talk · contribs)'s bizarre accusations at face value without clearly reading what I originally wrote. To clarify, I have not, never have, and never will accuse anyone, especially askahrc (talk · contribs), of being mentally ill. I do not really care what illnesses askahrc (talk · contribs) has. What I do accuse askahrc (talk · contribs) of is rank incompetence, contrary to WP:COMPETENCE, and lacking even the basic competence to understand that he's not competent. This is what Dunning–Kruger effect says - read the article here!). This is with great justification as outlined by Vzaak (talk · contribs).
      Actually, I believe I was being extremely generous in accusing askahrc (talk · contribs), and assuming good faith that he's not just a thoroughbred troll, just completely incompetent.
      I believe this is the worst case I have ever seen of a user falsely whining "personal attacks" when confronted with basic damning evidence against his anti-consensus behaviour. In this I assume that in good faith Askahrc (talk · contribs) is not deliberately lying, but just not competent enough to distinguish fair commentary on his capabilities from personal attacks. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:51, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Yes. I'm familiar with both the condition and what you wrote. You suggested here an editor may be suffering from what is a mental illness, "This may be due to the Dunning–Kruger effect." I assume now you did not mean to suggest mental illness. You might consider retracting the comment. I might add that suggesting another Wikipedia editor is completely incompetent is a lot to take on oneself. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:16, 4 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]

      Since no uninvolved admins have weighed in and this has become yet another tit-for-tat squabble among the usual suspects, I suggest this be closed. If there is evidence of misconduct, present the diffs at AN/I, I'm not sure why this dispute was brought to AN. Liz Read! Talk! 21:19, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      @Little olive oil (talk · contribs) - the Dunning–Kruger effect is not a mental illness. Please stop displaying your ignorance by claiming that it is or might be construed as such.
      It is also usually considered best if a "mediator" in a dispute has the confidence of all parties involved. Since Askahrc (talk · contribs) clearly doesn't have the confidence of those broadly as "sceptics", it is clear that he can't and shouldn't be getting involved. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Barney: Dunning-Kruger can overlap in some with or as anosognosia which can in turn overlap with psychosis. At any rate although I guess its better not to comment on the editor but stick to the edits. Askahrc has the right to be involved as any of us do. As I said above. I did not see him as a mediator (and I have struck the word since it was causing confusion) per our DR but simply as a neutral-toned editor. (Littleolive oil (talk) 22:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]

      Apparently Askahrc claims to be "uninvolved" because he has not edited the Chopra article. He has, however, been involved with the parallel article on Rupert Sheldrake: Sheldrake has been prominently supported by Chopra and the two reference each other, Chopra holding up Sheldrake as an example of trying to "bridge the gap between science and religion" (a little like trying to bridge the gap between Sakatchewan and sasquatch: a futile and meaningless exercise). The two are inextricably linked, and the common thread is extremely relevant in that in both cases the problem is the rejection of the subject's conjectures by the reality-based community. That plus a prior ArbCom sanction indicate that Askahrc is absolutely not a proper person to even offer to mediate, and definitely will not be accepted by a number of those with whom the purported mediation is required. In fact, no mediation is required, only patient explanation of why Wikipedia will never portray Chopra as a medical visionary until credible scientific evidence is produced to support his beliefs. It's taken medical science a century to slay the ghost of superstition, vitalism and magical thinking, Chopra basically represents the undead corpse of this unlamented triumvirate. That's not our problem to fix. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Ah, beautifully written, but an opinion. While we can respect the opinion we don't have to base an article on it. You are right though in that Saskatchewan and Sasguatch are not related although there may be Sasquatch in Saskatchewan. They'd have to fight off the grizzlies, though.(Littleolive oil (talk) 22:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]
      Correction, Barney the barney barney, I don't have your confidence, the discussion on Chopra (of which I'm just one member) is progressing nicely toward a reasoned consensus. There have been no problems there, but you wouldn't know since you haven't been involved in the discussion. Do you have anything productive to add besides insults and calling users ignorant and incompetent?
      And Guy, I've never tried to assert that Sheldrake or Chopra (btw, one mention of Sheldrake by Chopra does not make the two inextricably linked) are medical visionaries, medically mainstream or anything related to the unlamented ghosts of superstition you brought up in your WP:RGW speech. Also, the ArbCom you reference sanctioned me on the first round of SPI's vzaak brought against me, not on POV issues (he brought that too, but it was tabled for a complete lack of evidence).
      I'm so tired of this nonsensical-talking-in-circles, I don't come on here to fight. You keep claiming I'm POV-pushing, then I ask for POV diffs, and then you bring up something completely unrelated, then I ask for POV diffs, then you go on about the grand scheme of things, then I ask for POV diffs, then your associates pop in with PA's, then I ask for POV diffs, then you claiming I'm POV-pushing again... For crying out loud, take a breath and look around! I've been working civilly and productively with editors who share our perspective (yes, ours, if you'd take a second to read my posts) to find consensus in organizing secondary sources by reliability in an objective method. It's preposterous that this is contentious! The Cap'n (talk) 23:21, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks Askahrc (talk · contribs) - I don't present myself as some kind of spokesman, but I'm confident that most of the WP:FRINGE-fighters from WP:FRINGE/N basically agree with me that you shouldn't get involved in this. I don't want to name drop, it's terribly unbecoming. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:39, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      PLEASE STOP! This is so juvenile and childish and disappointing to see Wikipedia operate this way. It's not hard to see what is going on here. If I never came to Dr. Chopra's article, I don't think anyone would be going after the capn. Considering that Guy, Barney the Barney and Vzaak all seem to want him to go once he started to help. Yet neither Guy, Barney or Vzaak are making any contributions in the discussion other than accusations, soapbox speeches and aspersions, they are simply NOT HERE to contribute!

      Vzaak why you're involving yourself here when you claim to be so uninvolved is rather unscrupulous. No one mentioned anything about any skeptical groups, and I find the claim that you do not consider yourself a sceptic to be a very dubious considering your contribution history. At least Guy and Barney are upfront, I know where they stand. And I also don't appreciate you misrepresenting our discussion, you did accuse me on my talk page of withholding information which by definition would make me apart of this conspiracy your so convinced and excited about. Also, since you decided to single yourself out and bring your own actions to my attention, this conspiracy theory trip your on about Dr Chopra is over the top and bordering on something I would rather not mention. I noticed that you recently accused the capn somehow of being in cahoots with Dr Chopra regarding the Ralph Abrams issue???? are you serious? And I see you have a hard time letting that conspiracy theory go as well, plastering Wikipedia with this gibberish.ex1, ex 2 ex 3.

      PLEASE STOP THIS ALL OF YOU! I am here to help diffuse a situation, I'm not naive to the environment here. When I see editors gang up on the one or two editors from the outside that are trying to help and the levels of effort they make to harm them sends chills up my spine and makes me question how Wikipedia could ever operate this way. Very sad to see this! SAS81 (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Uninvolved admin(s), please either weigh in or close this case. Otherwise, the bickering will continue which is not a profitable use of this space or your time. Accusations without evidence are just that, accusations. Liz Read! Talk! 00:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      @SAS81: This is off the rails. Stop accusing me of this "conspiracy" stuff. You have seemingly misinterpreted effectively all of what I have said recently and in the past. You are linking to things that are manifestly not conspiracies, like the WMF server cache bug issue. It is not some "wild idea" that Askahrc engaged in deception by using a sockpuppet to harass editors. That is a formal finding logged at the arbcom page on pseudoscience.[4] vzaak 01:00, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @SAS81 I appreciate your support, but I'd recommend you keep your distance from this debacle. I'm happy to help you (or anyone who asks) with sourcing, but as a COI you're probably going to be held to a different standard and I'd feel bad if you got roped in and started getting slammed with vague accusations like I've been recently. They've repeatedly gotten hostile against Liz and all she did was comment that they were being uncivil.
      I urge you to not give up on WP policies and continue operating openly and honestly. Be careful of getting involved in third party disputes like this as it will not help your case, even if what you read is outlandish. As a COI, it may not be helpful to my case, either. I have faith in WP procedures; this trio have no evidence, argument or position other than their personal dislike of me and I trust any given admin (aside from Guy, of course) to see that.
      @Vzaak you aren't addressing the fact that after the SPI (which concluded with just "Fairly Convincing") you kept accusing me of socking, even accusing me of committing crimes until an admin told you to stop. Nor that your associate Barney was sanctioned on that board for WP:CIVIL and WP:ASPERSIONS.
      I'm through contributing to this meaningless wall of back & forth. I've tried to answer questions, be civil and explain the situation, but it appears useless. If someone has a question, please ask me, otherwise I'll spend my time doing something useful. The Cap'n (talk) 01:25, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Askahrc, it is not right for you to continue to cast evidence-free WP:ASPERSIONS. If you wish to disentangle yourself, stop casting aspersions. I never simply "accuse" anyone of socking, as you suggest. Rather, when there is evidence of socking, I file an SPI. Two administrators concluded that you were socking because of the evidence showing that you were socking. Regarding the second SPI, there was ample evidence for a checkuser request, and indeed a checkuser was run. You now claim that an admin told me to "stop". No administrator said any such thing (stop what?). You have been given many warnings: cease casting evidence-free aspersions. By contrast, the SPIs I have filed are backed up by solid evidence. If you have evidence of misconduct on my part, take it to WP:AE immediately. vzaak 02:20, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't know if it would be considered relevant, but a note on my talk page indicates that Askahrc is collaborating with Tunmbleman and suggest that this campaign is intentionally disruptive. Make of it what you will. Guy (Help!) 22:52, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Reluctantly poking my head back in... @Guy, that note was left by an editor who was warned and sanctioned for misrepresentation, incivility and PA's about the very issue they're bringing up again. The Cap'n (talk) 08:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      That conversation on Guy's talk page called "Cap’n McDouche" is disturbing as editor 76.107.171.90 is seeking collaborators and ideas for ways to get The Cap'n kicked off Wikipedia and s/he also badmouths Olive and myself. Publicly conspiring to drive editors one has differences with off Wikipedia is hounding and disruptive and should be discouraged. It also confirms what The Cap'n has been saying about a small group of editors persistently seeking ways to get him blocked for no other reason than they disagree with him. @76 has already received one block for his behavior towards The Cap'n but admins should be aware of this plotting. They admittedly want to get The Cap'n blocked, they are just looking for a reason...they have tried several times but have not succeeded. I don't think any editor should have to put up with this. Liz Read! Talk! 16:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Admin needed at Microsoft Windows

       Done The article is supposed to be about MS Windows, but the whole thing is currently reading (at least on my machine) as a thing related to WP:HATNOTE. Not sure what happened there, but it definitely needs a looksee, and one form an admin because the page is protected at the moment. 24.92.104.80 (talk) 02:20, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Everything looks normal to me. Please try refreshing your cache or purging the page. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      That was because of an edit to Template:Rellink, now fixed. As Diannaa says, purging should fix any articles that are still using the broken version. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour ♪ talk ♪ 04:55, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Alexa Olvera

      Hello. This article has been speedy delete in es-wiki and fr-wiki, as encyclopedic irrelevant and hoax. I notice that here was placed a template proposing deletion, but instead an IP replace it with a reference template. In my home wiki it´s not allowed to do that, but I'm not familiar with the processes in the english wiki, so I prefer to inform about here. Regards, —Frei sein (Talk to me!) 06:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC) PS: Looking more close at the revision history, the page has already been propose several times for deletion and every time the template has been change or eliminated by the user who created the article or an IP. Please, an admin need to look at the article.[reply]

      It is permitted to remove a BLP-prod template if a reference is provided that verifies what the article says. The reference added here does not. Rather than simply replace the BLP-prod, I will nominate this at WP:Articles for deletion. JohnCD (talk) 07:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Done, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexa Olvera. Thank you, Frei sein. JohnCD (talk) 08:13, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      As I said there, this is borderline CSD#G3. Not sure what that says about the editor. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:47, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I reckon, let sleeping hoaxers lie, unless he makes a nuisance of himself by removing the AfD template or vandalising the discussion; then block as WP:NOTHERE. His Spanish block is a username block: Viola la política de nombres de usuario. His first name may be related to pedo = a fart, pedorrero = one given to farting, which my dictionary marks as tabu, but I can't make anything of his second. My wife thinks it may mean something rude in Basque. JohnCD (talk) 17:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Skookum1 again again

      I've reverted the collapse at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive838#Skookum1 again; closure may be appropriate, as we weren't getting anywhere, but the closure header is not a possible interpretation of what needs to be done, even by Skookum1, himself. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      It's not often I find myself agreeing with Arthur Rubin. I have stricken the last part of the NAC closure. The admins in question were acting in their admin capacity and on the request of other users. They are to be commended for attempting to take on this messy and thankless chore. —Neotarf (talk) 03:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Forgeten vandalism

      the "vandal" was admin Feezo and the OP has been blocked as the latest in a string of sockpuppets who have targetted this article. JohnCD (talk) 21:07, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      • I found forgeten vandalism on this article. Some vandal with username Feezo removed category, links to other articles and he deleted part of article with informations about new series. I cannot edit this page because it protected.--Lisa Shertoon :-P (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Vandal? You're sure? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Anjaan333

      Hi, I'm reporting this user to ANI because they continue to be disruptive. I previously reported Anjaan333 for edit warring here. User kept trying to edit Drishyam to his/her preferred vision, failed to participate in discussions, failed to respond to warnings, failed to properly explain their edits, and was ultimately blocked for long-term edit warring. I also opened an SPI report after noting a suspicious new account Sajay the future of india, which was created 2 hours after Anjaan received his 48 block, making the same fundamental edits. Anjaan's block expired, and he's again submitted disputed content at Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja (film). In this edit the user again submits their version of the article, which they had submitted multiple times before their block.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. From what I can tell, the user is randomly reordering names, changing references, making assertions about box office gross that isn't supported by the source (User asserts 50 crore total, source says "close to 49", and the community apparently disputes the reliability of the sources used), Anjaan333 fails to actually DISCUSS the edits per WP:BRD (see this deleted warning/note I placed on his talk page asking him to do just that) and his edit summaries are insufficient, tending to comprise confusing statements like "if you are a mohanlal fan then saw his films not distroy wiki", "Ok sir", "Sir", "Sock", "Socker", "Sorry", "Where is unsourced". Since there seems to be no getting through to this editor, I think this goes beyond edit-warring, and is just straight-up disruptive editing. User also didn't respond when he was notified of the edit warring report I filed, so I doubt he's going to let us reason with him. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:39, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      The user's unwillingness or inability to use talk pages [13] [14] is troublesome and either a symptom of WP:COMPETENCE or WP:NOTHERE. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:09, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Or perhaps it's a sign that we really do need a discussion system that inexperienced people can navigate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:07, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Contested renaming of Đeneral Janković

      Đeneral Janković article is renamed, contrary to the outcome of the last RM discussion. Will somebody restore its name prior to contested renaming. Thanks.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:42, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I've moved it back with a note that, as a controversial (to say the least) subject area, any renaming must be done through the WP:RM process. I'm about to drop a note on the mover's talk page pointing out the same thing. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Thank you.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:02, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      WP:SPI

      WP:SPI has an enormous backlog with at least one case listed 9 days ago awaiting action. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:26, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      The people that you should speak to about that are at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Clerks. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:27, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Scratching my head

      Ive come across a page that Im really not sure whats happening. User:Djgriffin7/Mark G. Frank has ~17+ editors editing it, most of these users its their only activity. Im not sure exactly what is going on. Is this some kind of sock issue or what? Werieth (talk) 15:00, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      School project? GiantSnowman 15:07, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      That was my first guess, too. Note that Djgriffin7 previously did a lot of work on Steven A. Beebe (formerly a page in Djgriffin7's userspace), who like Frank is a communications professor. Also, a lot of the usernames editing this page end in "93" or "94", which would suggest a class of college students who are 20 or 21 years old. Nyttend (talk) 15:10, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      (edit conflict) A bunch of students working on their professor's article would be my random guess, but surely the easiest way to find out is probably to ask one of them on their talk page? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:13, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      ...or to be more efficient ask @Djgriffin7: as he is likely the co-ordinator. GiantSnowman 15:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Based on the IPs that have edited the page, I would say it is a project from State University of New York at Buffalo. GB fan 15:16, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      It's definitely a class project at SUNY Buffalo. See [15]. Re Steven A. Beebe, see User talk:Djgriffin7/Steven A. Beebe. It would also be helpful to put him in touch with Wikipedia:Education program. Voceditenore (talk) 15:27, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Hello - yes - these two pages are class projects for students who are enrolled in Communication Theory courses. Out of the approximately 75 students across two classes at two schools not one of them had ever edited Wikipedia in any fashion (until now). I hope that our activity was not too troublesome and was not so erratic or error filled as to cause any problems. I of course am a new Wikipedia editor and am open and welcome any tips or advice. Graciously. Djgriffin7 (talk) 18:02, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      User:Djgriffin7, we have a School and University Projects area that you would usually contact in advance of the project in order to help alleviate concerns like this, and coordinate the types of learning that are conducive to Wikipedia. This will help you to ensure your student success! the panda ɛˢˡ” 18:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Offensive rhetoric

      IP 24.135.50.156 comment, labeled Wikipedia all-time low, at Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine, labels unspecified WP contributors as "neo-nazis." We don't need such invective in connection with such a potentially fraught topic. [16] Sca (talk) 21:31, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      You can place a warning on their talk page. That's a start. Liz Read! Talk! 22:51, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Someone (not I) already removed it. Sca (talk) 15:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Template:Ds/sanction move request

      I have initiated a move request to move Template:Ds/sanction to Template:Ds/community sanction. The template has been deprecated with use for Arbitration Committee sanctions, and turned into a redirect to Template:Ds/alert, however the template is still being used for Community Sanctions, with modification, since there is no documented sanctioning template for Community Sanctions. The move request is at Template talk:Ds. —Neotarf (talk) 11:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Quality of article creations

      As most of you are probably aware, I have a long-standing history with User:Rich Farmbrough. Some of you feel that I should leave him alone, either because my complaints are meritless (which is contradicted by the results of these discussions), or because there is no need in a wiki-environment for one person to follow the edits of another, no matter how many times they have found problems in them; the theory is that if it is bad enough, someone else will notice it. In reality, this make take quite a while though; once editors are established, their edits get very little scrutiny, as evidenced by the below.

      In an effort to reduce the number of complaints and errors, Rich Farmbrough has received three editing restrictions, basically an attempt to improve the quality of his editing by reducing the quantity and repetitiveness of them. While the restrictions seem to be followed now, the wanted results are lacking. I have focused on the articles he created since his return, the ones listed here between George T. Lanigan and Aux Raus, i.e. (not counting the disambiguation pages) some 43 articles. I have not focused on his many redirect creations, although they have some of the same characteristics, like the self-referencing Template:South-Sudan-politician-stub or the dubious value of P D J F de P J N M de los R C de la S T R y Picasso, which seems to be a novel invention, not something really ever used by Picasso or in any serious work about him.

      Not mentioning simply unsourced articles or articles with serious typos, and skipping those I was not able to quickly research (e.g. biographies of Japanese military personnel), I noticed among these 43 new, often very short articles the following problems (in reverse chronological order):

      • George T. Lanigan
        • Wrong year of birth and death (article gives (1815-1874), correct would be either 1845 (10 December) or 1846 as year of birth, and 1886 as year of death, e.g. [17]
        • Wrong business (politician? Can't find any evidence for it)
        • Lanigan or Lannigan? Article was moved, but lead not corrected
        • No references
      • St George Henry Rathbone
        • Merged an existing article with the right name to his newly created one with the wrong name (original was St George Rathborne, note the extra "R" in borne)
      • Peter Irving
        • Only claim to fame is a book he wrote, Giovanni Sbogarro: A Venetian Tale. In reality, he didn’t write that book, but translated it from the French (original by Charles Nodier, Jean Sbogar, Histoire d’un Bandit Illyrien), which leaves us with a distinct lack of any notability in the article.
        • Originally claimed that the book was written in 1920 instead of 1820, corrected by someone else
      • Josias von Rantzou
        • Title and first line don’t match; title is wrong, should be at Rantzau, not Rantzou
        • Unsourced
      • John Russell (1838-1956)
        • 1838-1956: really? That’s quite a feat
        • We already had the article John Russell (screenwriter) on the same person…
        • Image is probably still copyrighted (uploaded to Commons as PD by Rich Farmbrough, but artist died in 1945, so not dead for 70 years yet)
      • Olga de Kireef Novikoff
        • Born in 1842? No, born in 1840 (some sources give 1848, but none seem to give 1842)
        • Better known as Olga Novikoff or Olga Novikova, or especially Olga Alekseevna Novikova, but very rarely, if ever, as Olga de Kireef Novikoff (no Google books or regular google hits outside Wikipedia and its mirrors)
      • Anne Lattin
        • Her real name is not "Louis Dwight Cole" but "Lois Dwight Cole", much better known than the rarely used pseudonym Anne Lattin. Important for playing a crucial role in publishing Gone with the wind as an editor, not for her few books, but that can't be learned from the article
        • Born c. 1910? Well, actually, born 1903, died 20 July 1979
      • Custódio José de Melo
        • Almirante de Melo was a sailor? Well, yes, "almirante" is the Portuguese for "admiral", so he was an admiral, as someone else helpfully added as a category afterwards… Perhaps technically not wrong, but not helpful for our readers at all.
      • José de León y Echales
        • Taking three days to die? No, some Sergeant-Major, the only one to survive the massacre and reach camp, survived for three days: the Governor was probably instantly dead. This can be seen here, the source used by Rich Farmbrough.

      So, of these 43 articles, at least 9 have serious problems (certainly when taking into account the stubbiness of many of them), some more major than others of course. Many of the others are probably factually correct, and some errors undoubtedly escaped me, but is it really acceptable that an experienced editor (not some clueless newbie) is filling Wikipedia with this amount (or percentage) of really incorrect information? Creating duplicate articles, merging a correctly titled one to an incorrect title, getting dates of birth and death wrong, missing the important facts of someone's live completely, ...

      All advice on how this can be prevented is welcome. Sofixit is a short term solution, but hardly something that one can expectr to be a continuous state for any editor. While we need prolific and enthusiastic editors in general, we don't need them no matter what, and at some point one has to consider whether many contributions outweigh this many errors. Fram (talk) 14:39, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      It sounds like you and Rich Farmbrough make a great team - he tees up rough and stubby articles and you do the detail work. A tremendous amount of Wikipedia content is created through exactly such steps. bd2412 T 15:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't mind rough and stubby, I mind wrong (and unsourced as well, since that makes it much harder to check everything). I don't mind correcting someones errors, if it is a rare occurrence or if there is improvement. But neither applies here, and at some point enough is enough. The very least is requesting that all his articles (and major edits) are properly sourced, so that we don't get edit summaries like "Well I think he was on a council, possibly somewhere beginning with B."). Fram (talk) 15:56, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • ...An edit in which he removed the reference to being a politician. He was fixing what you found him at fault for and you still find him at fault while fixing it. By the way, there was in fact a George T. Lanigan who served on a council in Boston, just not THIS Lanigan. Rich's edit summary is a mea culpa, nothing more, nothing less. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am not complaining about the edit, I am remarking on the edit summary, which is not a "mea culpa" at all, no matter how you read it. A mea culpa is "my mistake" (e.g. the copyright status I questioned above was my mistake), not "I'll remove it even though I think I was right". Your years-long defense of Rich's edits is admirable, but it would ne helpful if it was a bit more realistic sometimes. Fram (talk) 07:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sofixit is how Wikipedia works. Every single one of us makes errors. It's the body as a whole that works. WP:PERFECTION (which states that perfection is not required) is policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:39, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sofoxit is nice, but that doesn't mean that substandard editors are allowed free rein. Wikipedia:Disruptive editing is the guideline that applies here (e.g. WP:DISRUPTSIGNS #2, but also WP:IDHT: "If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed.". Fram (talk) 15:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • Fram, really, most of these are not "serious problems". They are minor, and easily rectified. Just a cursory review of the 9 you selected shows errors on your part. Examples; Peter Irving was a member of the New York State Assembly. It took me just a few seconds in a Google search to find that. Sufficient for notability (see WP:NPOL). You claim that File:Greattrainrobbery.jpg is "probably still copyrighted". You are wrong. The work was published in 1912 (which is noted in the article), making it clear of copyright as it was published prior to 1923 (See [18]). You claim Ms. Cole is famous for her role in "in publishing Gone with the wind as an editor". Well, since you attack Rich for copyediting errors, you should have typed "Gone with the Wind". Yes, almirantes are sailors, and the article was in need of improvement, a fact that Rich noted himself on the article. I also note that several of the issues that you raise have already been corrected by Rich. Perhaps you should have raised this at his talk page first? "Talk page discussion is a prerequisite to almost all of Wikipedia's venues of higher dispute resolution" (WP:DR). Since you are making so many errors in posting to WP:AN, should we disallow such "substandard editors" the "free rein" to post here? You're focusing on 21% of the articles he created, finding problems that do not exist, and failing to recognize the 79% where you didn't find error. You failed to raise these issues to Rich to give him an opportunity to fix them (which he is now doing). This is agitating. Go back to Rich's talk page and work it out. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:31, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • None of the issues that I raised were corrected by Rich Farmbrough before I raised them. None of these were minor either (three of the nine articles are or were at the wrong title, one is a duplicate of an existing article, and so on). Easily rectified? Yes, of course, once someone points out the problem and the solution, they are easily rectified. Until then, they remain for months or years. The problem is not that he didn't have an opportunity to fix them, the problem is that he created these errors, even though they were apparently "easily rectified". I don't blame him for copyediting errors (like writing Gorges for Georges, or itialicizing a title instead of bolding it in the first line of an article), that's the kind of thing that always happens and is indeed easily rectified by passing contributors; but I blame him for basic factual errors. The difference should be quite obvious. As for "go back to his talk page and work it out", earlier problems took years to work out and were only resolved by ArbCom. He is not some newbie who needs some initial guidance, these are basic errors that no experienced editor should be making with such a frequency. Fram (talk) 07:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
              • So instead just ramp it up and bring it here for sanctions against him? Much (all?) of this has been corrected since you started this thread. Had you given him the opportunity on his talk page, it's obvious he would have corrected it. Next time, don't assume bad faith. Give the man the benefit of a chance to fix it. So what's your end game here Fram? What's your ultimate goal with regards to Rich? --Hammersoft (talk) 13:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
                • Much remains uncorrected, as can be easily seen by comparing the above comments with the actual articles. It's obvious he would have corrected it? That's not what happened some of the previous times, when I listed the problems and he halfheartedly corrected some of them, disregarding the others for no obvious reasons. Furthermore, like I said already a few times, the problem here is not "will he correct them or not", the problem is someone creating this many factual errors. Of course, some people will never agree that X is many (apparently more than 20% is not "many" for some). There is no ABF involved, he created these errors, I didn't assume he did. My end game? To have an editor with a basic sense of quality and fact checking. If you want to add facts to an encyclopedia, we should be reasonably sure that they will be correct. Not perfect, not typofree, not complete, that's not what anyone is asking; but normally, your edits should be factually correct (or at least backed up by a reliable source). Fram (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
                  • But since you've already concluded that talking with him on his talk page is useless, then it would seem obvious your intention is having him banned from the project, no? --Hammersoft (talk) 13:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
                    • No. I've concluded (rightly or wrongly) that it is useless for me to talk to him on his user talk page. My intention is to seriously reduce the number of errors he introduces into the mainspace. Any method that can achieve that is fine by me. For someone so concerned about ABF, you seem to be very quick at doing the same. Fram (talk) 13:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Strong agreement with bd2412 here. WP does not (rightly or wrongly, but that's how it is) have a minimum quality standard. WP:CSD is as close as it gets.
      WP used to have a practice of collaborative editing, per IMPERFECT and SOFIXIT. This has been increasingly eroded recently, a development that does nothing to improve quality and even less for breadth of coverage. The deletionist logjam that nothing can be created unless perfect in all aspects from the start is one of the most harmful problems today. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:13, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes there are issues, a lot of articles have issues. Thousands and thousands of articles are blatantly wrong on some level. Rich does need to be more careful, many seem to be simple typos at really key points, but he has come back to fix them when the error was pointed out.[19] Rich should develop some content to GA and FA standards, but that's a journey and I hope he'll make the jump to it. Rich, you should not be egging it on with edit summaries about "automation" and such. Though it seems bizarre that someone should have to worry about the Proveit citation template maker or something... ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • The argument from WP:SOFIXIT is incorrect. Yes, Wikipedia does indeed grow and get better by editors fixing other editors' mistakes, but that does not negate the obvious, that an editor who creates articles with many mistakes in them is a problem. When we fix problems in an article, we AGF that the problems got there accidentally, but if an editor is having a lot of accidents, it points to a lack of care, and that hurts Wikipedia. For the time before a mistake is fixed, our accuracy is less than it should be, and out credibility (such as it is) is reduced. For these reasons, an editor who habitually makes content mistake needs to be dealt with. Fram is right to bring this to our attention - although Fram should also have fixed the problems they found and not left them in the articles. BMK (talk) 17:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • Normally, I would have fixed them. But in this case, I prefer to stay away from his articles, as fixing all his problems may be seen as harassment by some as well (and would be a nearly full-time job anyway). And the claims (not by BMK, by others here) that the problems are fixed after they have been pointed out is not really correct as well, many of the issues raised above still remain. The case remains that no experienced editor should be needing a nanny. Fram (talk) 07:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • Note that I have corrected hundreds of errors he created in the past. I have little interest in repeating that experience, or in delegating it to someone else. My aim is to prevent more problems. Fram (talk) 07:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
              • The only way you're going to prevent him from making errors is to ban him from the project. Is that your goal? You made several errors in bringing this complaint here. Should we ban you? --Hammersoft (talk) 13:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
                • Several errors? I said that a picture was probably still copyrighted, your link seems to indicate that it isn't. Fine, that's one worry less, talk page used like it should be. I believe that when people make too many factual errors in their article editing (not just typos and the like, but getting basic facts wrong), action should be taken. Mentoring, restrictions, whatever, up to and including bans when necessary. For most editors here, this will never be a problem, since their error rate is considerably lower. But some editors, who continue to be problematic in their main space editing (like Rich Farmbrough, but there are other examples like LauraHale and so on), will need to change if they want to stay around. Fram (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Yes, several errors were made by you. That was just in a cursory review. If that many came out in a cursory review, I'm sure you've committed many more errors. So what should we do about all the errors you are committing? --Hammersoft (talk) 13:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Feel free to list the other factual errors I made. Then again, if they are of the same level as your "oh, you wrote Gone with the wind instead of Gone with the Wind" example, don't bother. Either you can't see the difference between the kind of errors I listed (and the namespace they were made) and the things you are complaining about, or you are deliberately trying to disrupt the discussion, but neither is helpful. If you don't produce anything new or more substantial, then I'll let you have the final word if you want it, and am done replying to you here. Fram (talk) 13:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      The initial creation of George T. Lanigan seems to have been copied from Hugh Graham, 1st Baron Atholstan without attribution, which is also potentially a problem. Choess (talk) 21:44, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Which is easily fixed using the "copied" template and putting on the talk page of both articles. BMK (talk) 02:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Fram found 9 of 43 articles created by Rich to have "serious problems" (debatable; some of them are simply copyedit issues). I.e, 21%. I took at look at Fram's 10 most recent article creations. Of those, I found 4 with various issues:

      1. Isabelle Errera was created by Fram with various categories commented out, thus no categorization.
      2. Kilsyth Curling Club; created with part of edit summary reading "Create short article", yet Fram failed to add stub templates {{Scotland-sport-club-stub}} and {{curling-stub}}, which are present on 2 of 6 of the articles in the category he placed this article in. Also failed to use {{Infobox curling club}}, which is recommended by Wikipedia:WikiProject_Curling/Article_Guidelines#Other.
      3. Gruuthusemuseum created by Fram with commonscat and section title issues that had to be fixed by another editor [20].
      4. Lepus cornutus was created by Fram with one of the categories being Category:Mammals of Europe ([21]). Fram knew the animal was fictional, but placed it in this category anyway. The category was later removed by another editor.

      Granted, a small sample, but it appears 40% of Fram's article creations have issues. This is about twice as bad as Rich. Fram has been editing since 2005. He is a very experienced editor. He should know better, right? Should be invoke sanctions on Fram? Of course not. The point here is nobody is perfect, and being perfect is not expected. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      FWIW, it appears that Rich Farmbrough has been informed about this thread. He appears to be staying out this discussion, which -- from what I've read up to this point -- appears to be the wisest thing to do. -- llywrch (talk) 15:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      • I have history with both editors, and it should be noted that Rich's alleged errors are mostly errors of fact or of copyright violation, while Fram's are errors of formatting. Not at all similar. And I would say that someone who makes errors of fact in even 5% of article creations would be a problem. (I say that as someone who has not created articles, because I know I would make too many errors.) Still, I don't see quite enough here for Rich to be censured for it. If Fram finds more errors in the future, now that Rich has been informed, this is the place. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      An informal RfC at Talk:Celibacy needs attention

      Would like someone like to take a look at the discussion above and see what should be done. This originated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination) which closed a few months ago as a merge to Celibacy, but what does one do when editors at the target do not want it? There seems to be a rough consensus to not include said material, but as it was never a formally-posted/templated RfC, not sure if we advertise for a wider audience or just run with what's there. Tarc (talk) 15:53, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

       Done --j⚛e deckertalk 16:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Requesting review of EatsShootsAndLeaves block of Flyer22

      I haven't commented on the block, so I guess I'm uninvolved enough. DP blocked, Ed unblocked, lots of people disagree with the block or some other aspect, both sides present opinions, stalemate. Put another way: we all lose. Other venues exist, including Arb and RFC/U, although there wasn't any demonstration of actual abuse, nor substantiated claims of a long term pattern. It's a ugly discussion and it is doubtful anything good came from it, and perhaps it just needs to be put out of its misery. As Yunshui has so accurately stated, there is more heat than light here. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      I would like the community's input on two matters:

      1. Specifically, EatsShootsAndLeaves block of Flyer22
      2. Generally, what are admins obligated to consider when blocking for edit-warring when two or three reverts have been made.

      The article in question is Human sexuality history. Diffs supplied upon request but I don't think anyone is disputing the actual edits.

      Flyer22 reverted twice in the span of five minutes this morning. After the second revert, she was warned by the other editor for edit warring. No more reverts occurred on her part and talk was ongoing [22]. After about forty minutes after her last revert, EatsShootsAndLeaves blocked her and the other editor (who had three reverts) for edit warring. There is some history between Flyer22 and EatsShootsAndLeaves as Alison will attest to [23]. Other editors including myself got involved on both talk pages [24], [25]. Rather than discussing lifting the block, EatsShootsAndLeaves chose to characterize my comments as "atrocious and incendiary" [26]

      Whether he agrees or not, EatsShootsAndLeaves' actions gives the appearance he will impose WP:1RR as he sees fit. As I said on Alison's page, I'm just flabbergasted that an editor in good standing can be blocked for two reverts with no warning. Looking over the edit histories of the 20,000+ articles I have watchlisted, hundreds of veteran editors would have lengthy block records if this was applied across the board. There needs to be some other justification for blocking other than "two reverts". --NeilN talk to me 17:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      This is the most disgusting show of ABF I've seen in ages. I'm currently in discussion with Writ Keeper on my talkpage regarding this issue, and have already advised that I would review. NeilN's incendiary and non-AGF comments so far today have been unfortunate, just like this filing - it's phrased as a question, but is instead an accusation. I will, however, make nomore comments here - and will continue the discussion on my talkpage where it's already underway the panda ɛˢˡ” 18:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would say that the word "incendiary" applies to both ESL and NeilN here. Rage and accusations aren't going to help outsiders understand what happened here, or decide what should happen going forward.

        It appears that ESL has said he's going to re-review the basis for the block; how about we give him a little time to do that and then see what might or might not need doing? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      • As far as I am aware, there are no discretionary sanctions on 'Human Sexuality' although there are on some specific areas that fall under it, so there is no real reason for any admin to start imposing a 1rr restriction without some form of discussion. While edit warring can be done with less than 3rr, if someone makes 2 reverts, is warned about edit warring, and starts discussing on the talk page. That is how editing is supposed to work. Any block at that point is just punitive and petty. So since EatsShootsAndLeaves wants a question, here is one - "What about your block was preventative?" Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:15, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      This is very premature. I do see that User:NeilN is discussing with ESL, as we like to see, but while that discussion may not become a case study for how disputes ought to be discussed, it looks to me like it was abandoned a bit early. I'm sympathetic to the point that the block appears a bit hasty, but talk about it and come back here if that fails.(in other words agreeing with the sandwich)S Philbrick(Talk) 18:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      If a veteran editor labels your point of view "atrocious and incendiary" then that's a sign for me to break off and get other opinions. --NeilN talk to me 18:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      User:Writ Keeper, as you know, topics surrounding human sexuality are the primary areas where Flyer22 tends to edit. They do a lot of good work there, across a swath of topics I wouldn't even begin to touch. However, human sexuality topics are also those that have gotten many editors in a lot of trouble - having just search ANI for both "Flyer22" and "human sexuality", you can see a lot of issues raised across the board - including a rather nasty situation between Flyer and a transgender editor that I believe ended horribly. It's an often poisonous set of topics where ownership has often been accused, and tempers have flared...often with very little provocation.
      Flyer22 is a long-time editor, and while they have been knee-deep in some of these situations, have been provoked, and have also done some of the provoking. As a long-term editor, they also understand EW, its difference from 3RR, and the appearances. They know WP:BRD like the back of their hand.
      From what I see of your list, it was almost 30 minutes between Flyer22's last revert on Human sexuality and when I blocked both editors. This delay is not at all questionable - after all, WP:AN/3RR reports often go hours without being touched, and blocks that come from those delayed reviews are not considered punitive.
      Also, if one considered only those edits from today, then you're right, my actions might appear odd. Taking the poisonous history of that article into account, it does place the entire situation into a much wider context - a context that cannot be ignored - those 4 reverts cannot be taken in isolation.
      Discussing on the article talkpage is also not a vaccination against being blocked for edit-warring or 3RR - discussion is vital to the project moving forward, after all, it's how we gain WP:CONSENSUS.
      The edits being made by the other blocked party were perhaps inappropriate, but did not violate wP:BLP, WP:COPYRIGHT, nor any of the common exceptions to edit-warring. Following WP:BRD, or at least letting the discussion on the article talkpage continue instead of immediately reverting would have done no harm to the project or the subject.
      As has already been said elsewhere and many many times, nobody is guaranteed 3 reverts - that's merely a bright line.
      Flyer22 themself has admitted to having performed the second revert, and IIRC they acknowledged that it could be perceived as problematic. From what I recall from their talkpage this morning, they have not doubted the technicality of this block, but have merely expressed that I should not have been the one to perform it. I have not been to their talkpage in hours, and have already advised that I will not return - not even to re-read.
      Based on the potential for escalation as per history on this article and with other editors on this and related articles, I perceived an extremely short edit-warring block as an immediate resolution to what I viewed as a rapidly-going-to-hell situation. Both parties were equally at fault, and as such, I issued 12hr blocks to both parties (even though Flyer22's past block history might have called for something longer, it was my clear desire to prevent what I perceived to be immediate issues, and most certainly not to punish anyone).
      What was I to do instead?
      Block neither and allow the possible escalation? No - not knowing the history of the wars on that and similar articles.
      Block only Flyer? Hell no - they were equally at fault with the reverts.
      Block only the other editor? I considered it - briefly. But then I considered the ethical dilemma with leaving one editor with the ability to keep control of the article, or to have the appearance of being favoured over the other.
      It was a catch-22 situation, so I made the decision to make short, equal, project-protecting blocks. After all, both were warned, and both were very aware of the issues the panda ₯’ 20:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You didn't even consider placing a note on the article's talk page stating any further reverts would result in a block? --NeilN talk to me 20:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Why would I do that - both editors were obviously aware of edit-warring; after all, ONE of the editors was throwing warnings around everywhere the panda ₯’ 20:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      And again, Flyer22 had no more reverts after the other editor gave her a warning. --NeilN talk to me 20:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Does that mean the edit-war had stopped? Do you guarantee that? There's a reason that even WP:3RR is over 24 hours - nobody watches their keyboard 24/7, and for all anyone - including you - knows is that they might have gone back to make their next revert (note also the definition of WP:REVERT does not mean simply clicking UNDO) the panda ₯’ 20:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You've been quite loudly banging WP:AGF around my head today. Shouldn't you do the same? --NeilN talk to me 20:59, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm the only one who is :-) There's a reason I chose 12hrs, isn't there. the panda ₯’ 21:42, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You'll also notice no one else has said "Good block" or "Endorse block". --NeilN talk to me 21:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      That's irrelevant, and in the long run untrue. the panda ₯’ 22:21, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      So feedback is irrelevant and you can see into the future. Okay. --NeilN talk to me 02:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I made no such admission the panda ₯’ 20:35, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm sorry, you only stated that "I can state without a doubt that the alignment is very different from what I reviewed this morning" when presented with a chronological list of the edits that you blocked Flyer for. I'm not even taking any alleged previous history with the editor into account. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:42, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Right, "the alignment is very different" is obviously NOT the same as not "investigating all the facts" - as you can read above, it was extensively investigated. the panda ₯’ 20:44, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You and I are reading that very differently then. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:58, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Not sure how. English might not be my first language, but there's no other possible way to have read my statement...and have you corrected your incorrect statement after having seen the truth above? There seems to be a disconnect now...oh, and now there's the matter of the ethical dilemma about the other editor remaining blocked because of a rash unblock of one of the parties the panda ₯’ 20:59, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      There is no ethical dilemma here because the situation is not symmetric. Mdthree gave Flyer22 a warning before making another revert himself, which violates WP:GAME. Flyer22 did no such thing. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      ^What the king said. This wasn't a 'rash unblock' of only one party. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 22:25, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      So, you'll still be correcting your wording, right User:The ed17? Bizarrely stating above and elsewhere that I said that I admitted that I had not investigated is false ... and I would normally expect better of you that to leave statements like that hanging around. You're a fan of the truth. the panda ₯’ 22:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I've given a slight correction, though I'm not sure how 'bizarre' it was. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:00, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      That one's even more false. Hell, did you even read my extensive analysis? WTF is this, "fuck the Panda over day"? I didn't get a card for that in the mail. C'mon Ed, everything I typed today is in English the panda ₯’ 23:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      On point 1: so even though WP:CONSENSUS was to wait until I had re-analyzed, one of my colleagues went ahead and unblocked one of the 2 editors without waiting. Of course, they did that without having read my analysis - and their unblock reasoning now doesn't stand up to my extensive statement. They have no desire to correct, and the block would have been almost over by now anyway, so meh. Oddly, there's been no useful comments since I showed the degree of analysis I went to. So, I'll consider mys statement to have been sufficient under WP:ADMINACCT, and therefore this situation closed.
      On point 2, this isn't the place for philosophy, but I have shown all the things I took into account in instituting an edit-warring block before reaching 3RR, again, as per WP:ADMINACCT - there's been no statement that I missed any steps, so again, closed
      Gonna take my kids to a movie the panda ₯’ 23:18, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I agree; it is not symmetric. I have been represented unfairly. I would appreciate an unblock as well. (1)User talk:NeilN makes the claim I made three reverts; I did not. (2) User: EatsShootsAndLeaves claims that because I know the rules about 3RR, I would have violated them. I would not, I know the rules. (3) User:King of Hearts said I was gaming the system; however the system advantages the first editor. The rule is structured that way and it is not gaming the system to follow the rules. As for symmetry, I think content needs to be considered. I was not asking for something inflammatory. The Human Sexuality opening paragraphs make no mention of the sexes either male, female, man, or woman. Its not possible to define sexuality without referencing sex; take a biologists point of view for a moment and look at the opening paragraph. Mrdthree (talk) 23:23, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      User:Mrdthree, your comments about content are irrelevant. You made an edit and Flyer22 reverted it. As per WP:BRD, you should never re-add it until you have reached consensus to do so via discussion. However, you DID re-revert, and provoked another editor into an edit-war, while at the same time warning THEM for edit-warring. Obviously, if you knew EW/3RR well-enough to actually warn someone else about it, you knew it well-enough that you were also subject to it. Whether you hold the WP:TRUTH or not, you are still subject to the same article and editing rules as everyone else, and we're not going to discuss content here the panda ɛˢˡ” 11:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You attempted to game the system by inappropriately slapping me with a WP:3RR warning and telling me not to revert again so that you could then revert. You hardly waited for a reply before reverting. Also read WP:Don't template the regulars; never do I need such a template slapped on my talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 00:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I've stated enough on this matter at my talk page. With regard to a few of Bwilkins/DangerousPanda/EatsShootsAndLeaves's comments about me above: No, I did not acknowledge that my two reverts could be perceived as problematic; as the aforementioned discussion on my talk page shows, I was referring to my block log; I stated, "As far as I can see, you've screwed up my block log even further than it was already screwed up, even with all of clarifications that are in it, knowing very well that many editors here look at the block log and see 'problematic editor' when it has as many blocks/block descriptions as I now have...no matter what is clarified in the blocks." As for my not having doubted the technicality of this block, I have, which is also made clear in the aforementioned talk page discussion; I did not object solely because Bwilkins/DangerousPanda/EatsShootsAndLeaves was the one who blocked me. As for the transgender editor Bwilkins/DangerousPanda/EatsShootsAndLeaves is referring to, anyone can look at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology for details on that; that editor was topic-banned from human sexuality articles for very good reasons; I was not topic-banned. Nor will I ever be, and that's for very good reasons. As for Bwilkins/DangerousPanda/EatsShootsAndLeaves's characterization of me, it leaves much to be desired. Flyer22 (talk) 00:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Recall petition

      Based on some of the comments, not just here but over the totality of User:DangerousPanda's admin career, I think that it'd be fruitful to have discussion of his status, and that an RfA (a "reconfirmation RfA" or "recall RfA") would be the best venue for this, mainly because that's a place where an actual decision one way or the other may be effected.

      In this, I'm not expressing an opinion one way or the other on User:DangerousPanda's suitability as an admin, just that it may be something that people may wish to discuss. To that end I've initiated a recall petition (six signatures would be required) here: User talk:Herostratus#Petition for reconfirmation RfA for User:DangerousPanda (because a user talk page is the specified venue for such petitions).

      Questions such as "how is it legitimate, or even allowed, to post a recall position on an editor who's not a member of Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall and who is not cooperating?" are best asked and answered there IMO (or here, whatever you like).

      I assume that of course the following isn't necessary, but just to cover all my bases:

      • If anyone feels the petition is not legitimate, please don't erase it (and please restore it someone does, thanks). The correct procedure would be to initiate a WP:MFD request on that section of my talk page. (Yes you can run an MfD on sections of pages.) I'd rather you didn't but it's your right.
      • If anyone feels I'm out of line here, please don't block me (and please reinstate me if someone does, thanks). The correct procedure here would be to open an ANI thread, or an RFC:USER, or something along those lines. Herostratus (talk) 02:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Note: I restored Nyttend's comment after what seemed to be an accidental removal of the comment by Herostratus when tweaking his wording. Flyer22 (talk) 08:01, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Oh, no, heaven forbid that your opening a recall attempt should be interpreted as expressing an opinion, no, you're just an innocent bystander here with no feelings one way or the other about the admin.

      Yeah, I believe that.

      Really

      Here's what I think, innocent bystander-person: there really should be a community admin-recall procedure, but as of this time there isn't, which means that the only currently legitimate way to get an admin desysopped is to open a case at ArbCom, and make a case for removing the admin bit. So why don't you stop stirring unnecessary and unproductive drama at AN, and head on over to ArbCom. I'm sure they'll be receptive to your argument that an admin should be desysopped because he's been a bit cranky lately. Yeah, that'll really go over really well. BMK (talk) 05:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Wow, that seems a little uncalled for, don't you think? I mean, I can understand if you disagree with Herostratus, but does he really deserve to be castigated in such a vicious and sarcastic manner?

      My interactions with DangerousPanda have been relatively limited, and the last time we spoke was sometime in 2013. He means well and does a lot of great work, but there have been a number of longstanding concerns about his temperament and judgment going back several years. If Herostratus feels that it is enough to petition for an administrator recall, then he can go ahead and initiate one. At the very least, it will help gauge whether or not he currently enjoys the support of the community, which is unclear at this point. I've called him an "admin's admin" on one occasion; I've also openly criticized several of his decisions in the past. I'll abstain from participation and leave it to the rest of the community to decide where to go from here. Kurtis (talk) 07:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Wait, what? DangerousPanda isn't even open to recall? That changes things somewhat. Recall is not a standard community process, nor is it even binding — it's a prerogative espoused by certain administrators to uphold personal accountability for themselves. I'll second what Beyond My Ken wrote regarding the proper venue being ArbCom. Kurtis (talk) 08:30, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      ArbCom isn't the proper venue either - ArbCom only deals with cases of repeated abuse of admin tools specific egregious behaviour. There is actually no proper place for a general "Has this admin lost the confidence of the community?" process - and that's one of the big problems with Wikipedia governance. To have the bit forcibly removed, an admin must commit multiple specific and egregious offences, but there is no remedy for long-term passive-aggression. (Note these are general comments - I offer no opinion on this specific case) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC) (Corrected my "repeated abuse of admin tools" mistake -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]
      You're confusing the eventual success of the complaint with the proper venue for it to take place in. ArbCom is the only proper venue for desysopping DP, and that is true regardless of whether the complaint is viable or not, which this one isan't. BMK (talk) 10:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      No, I'm not confusing anything of the sort. I agree that currently ArbCom is the only proper venue. But my view is that that is insufficient, as it does not encompass "loss of confidence" motions - for those, there is no proper venue. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      And, yes, that is why you are confusing results with venues. If the proper venue is ArbCom. which you agree, then it is irrelevant whether the appeal will be successful or not. The appeal can be "insufficient" or misstated or malformed or idiotic or stupid or half-bakaed, but ArbCom is still the proper venue for it. BMK (talk) 10:35, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You know, I think we actually agree on this - the proper venue is indeed ArbCom, purely because there's no other venue - but I don't see how ArbCom could (or even should) judge "loss of confidence" cases - and they won't. So yes, there is a designated venue - even if that venue won't get any results. (And in a practical sense, there's no useful venue). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:03, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      There have been a couple of statements on this matter around and about which appear to be incorrect. As ArbCom is the only place that administrators can have their tools removed, misuse of the tools should result in cases taken to ArbCom. It's likely to be dismissed if it's a one off, but if there's a pattern which might lead to "loss of confidence", then that should be raised. There are times that an RfC/U are appropriate for an admin and times when they are not, it's certainly not a requirement to happen before an ArbCom case. At any rate, Herostratus' petition is not the way forward. WormTT(talk) 09:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Actually, Boing, that's not entirely accurate. Removal of tools is not necessarily conditional on their abuse. Repeated misuse has historically been deemed enough to desysop an administrator; also, considering that admins are held to higher standards of conduct, a history of questionable conduct may warrant a desysopping as well – though this is uncharted territory, as far as I know. As said by others, if Herostatus thinks DangerousPanda's behaviour has been consistently poor, he should either open an RFC or bring a case to ArbCom. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      RfC is almost entirely useless for removal of the admin bit (When was the last time an admin had his bit removed as a result of an RfC? I'm willing to bet the answer is "never".) If Herostratus thinks that DP has abused the bit - and I don't believe for a second remonstrations that HS is just am neutral independent operator - he needs to present a case to ArbCom, which I'm willing to bet he never will, since this appears to be pure propaganda and nothing else. Put your money where your mouth is, Herostratus, and file an ArbCom case and see how quickly it's rejected. BMK (talk) 10:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't doubt your sincerity, Salvio, but history supports me. ArbCom does nothing about long-term low-level problems with admins - those who the community would not now support, but who have not committed sufficiently egregious misuse of tools. (I'd love to be proved wrong - but by actions not words). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I should add that I don't mean this as a criticism of ArbCom, just as a criticism of the governance structure itself. I don't think ArbCom should be expected to judge loss-of-confidence cases - the Community should be able to decide them, but currently cannot. RFC is not the venue, as it is not binding. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't disagree. There should be a community-based desysop procedure, but at the moment there ain't, so we've got what we've got.BMK (talk) 10:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Yep, sad, isn't it? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Herostratus' page now violates WP:POLEMIC - interesting that he made it on his takpage directly where a) all his talkpage watchers could participate simply by seeing their watchlist changes, and b) it now cannot be properly MFD'd. the panda ₯’ 09:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Not WP:AGF again, Panda. Oh dear. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 09:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • While I oppose this recall attempt, I don't see how it violates WP:POLEMIC, as it is explicitly used in a (flawed) attempt at dispute resolution. As for the "talkpage watchers" comment; he openly announced this at WP:AN, so the influence of his talk page watchers doesn't seem to be a genuine concern. Fram (talk) 09:32, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Contrary to what is said above, it isn't necessary for an admin to abuse his tools before ArbCom can decide to desysop them. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds/Proposed decision is a relatively recent example: Ironholds was desysopped for his comments and incivility, not for any abuse of the tools (please correct me if I'm wrong here). Fram (talk) 10:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Ironholds was desysopped for "conduct unbecoming an adminstrator" fot having "a history of making highly inappropriate remarks both on-wiki and off-wiki on the various IRC channels, where he has often used violent and sexual language (evidence for this has been submitted and discussed in private). Moreover, on at least two occasions, he also logged out to engage in vandalism and to make personal attacks on other editors on other Wikimedia projects." You see some sort of parallel here with DP's behavior? 10:48, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
      You're quire right, Fram. I don't know why I didn't think of that case – and I was one of the drafters... Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:11, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • No. DPanda can be abrasive, a bit of a bull in a china shop at times, but that is very different than what Ironholds did, by a mile. I don't see the self serving element at all. I don't question DPanda's faith in his actions, although I do have to admit wincing from time to time by his words or approach. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of RFC/U, but maybe that is the best venue as the problem appears to be one of communications and style more than anything else. Knowing when to accept community opinion even if you strongly disagree with it, that kind of stuff. He is not the only admin around here that fits that description, he is just the target of the day. Arb is the wrong venue, and won't get any results: RFC/U just might. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      No. As far as I have seen, DP has done nothing as outrageous as the things Ironholds was desysopped for. I didn't claim or imply this either. My post was a reply to the discussion above, where it was basically said that ArbCom would only desysop for tools abuse, which is not correct. If someone wants to make the case that DP has a history of "conduct unbecoming an admin" which is sufficient to warrant desysoping (or admonoishing or whatever), then it would be incorrect to claim that such a casse doesn't belong at ArbCom a priori. This has nothing to do with whether such a case would eventually result in any actions, or with whether there are in this case enough arguments to start such a case. Pointing out that the process allows this, and that there is precedent, doesn't mean that this case is truly comparable or would have any chance of success (with "success" defined as an action against the admin). Fram (talk) 11:14, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Assuming Arbcom agrees there is some sort of issue, there are other outcomes that a case could have, including admonishment and reminders - which would carry more weight if similar behaviour were to re-occur. That then leaves the question of "do we want to improve the situation or do we want blood". This is where RfC/U also comes in - if people genuinely have an issue and want to see change, RfC/U is a useful tool - if they just want a desysop, the question would be "why didn't you do something sooner". WormTT(talk) 11:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Well of course I have an opinion. I'm just not expressing it since my role here is just to facilitate the process and so that wouldn't be helpful.

      Here's what going on here: I'm making a stab at seeing if the community wants make a new thing, that being "recall of admins who are not in Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall". This is a test case. If you think that initiating recall of admins who are not in Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall is a bad idea generally, you probably don't want to sign the petition. If you think it's a good idea and you think that this case warrants one, you might want to consider signing. (Note that signing the petition is in no way a indication that you think the person shouldn't be an admin, just that you think that community ought to consider it.)

      There's no question that this a stab at an organizational reform, I'm not being coy about that. Obviously if this were to go through, it would be a new thing. Since it' be a new thing, objections in the manner of "we haven't done this before" are not very germane. And objections in the manner of "this is not allowed" are not particularly satisfying. It's a wiki and community members are allowed to do whatever the community says they can, including make new things. We are not entirely bound to past procedures I hope, and that kind of thinking makes it hard for us to change and grow going forward.

      My personal opinion is that recall of admins who are not in Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall might very well be a good thing (of course I don't know this for sure), some of the reasons being:

      • If there is going to be admin recall all, it seems silly to limit it to admins willing to place themselves in Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall, since it's possible that the admins who don't are exactly the ones that we are most likely to want to recall.
      • It's much simpler and easier than going to ArbCom, when all you want is to consider adminship rather than bans and topic bans and so forth.
      • It'd devolve some decisions down to the community rather than an elected board. All thing equal devolvement of decision-making downward is often functional.
      • It allows the format of the conversations and procedures for recalling an admin to parallel the the format of the conversations and procedures for appointing an admin, which makes sense to me. (If ArbCom is much better than RfA at concluding who should or should be an admin, then probably ArbCom should appoint as well remove admins.)
      • Might make the whole RfA thing less of a fraught thing and such a big deal -- easier out, easier in. Maybe. Not sure if this is true or would be a good thing though.
      • And so forth. I'll bet you can come up with other reasons. Herostratus (talk) 11:14, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You don't create a new process by strongarming through a "test case" - especially one which has a direct effect on another editor. You propose it, perhaps by way of an RFC at the Village Pump, you allow discussion around the topic, and you abide by the community's decision on its validity or otherwise. You don't get to unilaterally decide that Wikipedia now has a brand-new admin recall system of your own devising and expect to try it out on the first admin unfortunate enough to get dragged to ANI. Yunshui 雲水 11:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      So, what's really up?

      Let's back the truck up here. Now, before I posted the analysis that led to the block above, there were some backroom discussions not only about the block, but discussions where some of my colleague admins (I won't say who) called me "a fucking prick". Some people - admins included - seemed to believe I'd gone completely off-the-rails or something over some isolated 4-edit sequence that on a normal day would lead to warnings and no more.

      Oddly enough, after I posted the long thought process that went into the blocks, not a single admin has said "I disagree". In fact, it's been strangely quiet. Not a single admin has said "yeah, but...". Not a single admin has said anything about that because surprise, surprise, Brad did think before clicking on a tool. Brad did end up doing what was in his judgement the protection of a dangerous corner of the project. Brad did try to balance the needs of 2 editors and the project. Indeed, Brad did ask himself a whackload of pertinent questions before clicking on that tool. Brad did do exactly what the project expects an admin to do before acting. Nobody since my post has said "Brad, that was a bad block based on your explanation". Yeah, I made a difficult judgement call based on months of watchlisting an hazardous, contentious article. People sure seemed to question the judgement without knowing the full details - someone even unblocked without knwoing them, but not a peep since - and that's because we've all been hanging on that balance at one point or another - hell, there's 1 or 2 ANI reports yesterday alone that showed less-complex thought processes that spiralled out of control.

      So what's the real issue here? Me? The fact that I blocked someone who claims I know everything about them (I'm sorry, my memory doesn't work that way)?

      I may be a lot of things, but the one thing that EVERYONE on this project knows about me is that I tell the truth, AND that when I say I'm sincere, I'm sincere.

      Yesterday was a painful day not because of this AN, but because I did some very deep soul-searching, and then painfully bared my soul on another editor's page. What makes it worse is that due to my promise to them, I will not revisit their talkpage to see if they replied. It just so happens that the editor in question is one of the 2 editors I blocked yesterday.

      Indeed, I tried to go back and find out just why Flyer22 is so damned pissed off at me, and yeah, apparently it DOES go back a long time when I personally failed to AGF - I made a statement based on all the available evidence presented to me at the time. It was the only statement supported by the available evidence at the time - although I did take it one step too far. Turns out that there was more unknown evidence that turned the tables not long after. If that evidence was available at the time, I sure would have made a different statement - but I sure should not have made the level of non-AGF statement I made anyway - that was a long time ago, and it took a lot of digging to find it. I cannot go back and right my personal great wrongs. I have apologized, more than once to Flyer22. I have sincerely stated my regret to them. And no, I didn't recognize that one of the people was blocking yesterday just happened to be the one person who I feel I had truly wronged years ago.

      So what, are we complaining about the block now? Are we complaining about my thought process/judgement in yesterdays blocks? Are we complaining that I'm an emotional, rational human? Or are we just throwing random "let's play shotgun with some shit and see what sticks"? After all, I would LOVE to see where my REAL analysis failed - but in >12hrs, nobody has shown that at all - they've simply tossed shit. the panda ɛˢˡ” 11:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Trying to avoid making personal attacks here, so let me just say that the thing everyone on this project supposedly knows about you is something I don't agree with. Apart from that, the posting of the long thought process was your 20:33, 6 May 2014 post? The one that was followed by an unblock which basically boiled down to "DP was wrong here"? A later statement by admin User:King of Hearts seems to agree. You then, on 23:18, 6 May 2014, posted a further "but I was right" reply, and now this. You may not agree with their analysis, but claiming that "Not a single admin has said anything about that" is rather strange and doesn't seem to match the above discussion. Fram (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Ed had something to say too. And I offered you an option you could have taken after your analysis. --NeilN talk to me 12:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      My comments are not related to the block. I've not commented on it, nor do I have any desire to. I've never questioned your faith, honesty or sincerity. In fact, I've spoken out for them previously. Still, if people have a problem with your methods, the backwaters of RFC/U is the right venue, not Arb nor the drama pits of ANI/AN. If it isn't worth filing an RFC/U over, then dropping it would be the best solution. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Yeah, bad block, whatever. I don't care about rubbish like my reputation's been tarnished or "block log is permanent omg what will people think?". (Redacted) — lfdder 13:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You need to consider striking your comment, which is clearly in breach of WP:NPA. There just isn't any need for that and it isn't serving any higher purpose here. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      You need to consider blocking me for it. — lfdder 14:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Acting childish with me isn't solving anything. Acting dickish isn't either. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Well, I'm done here anyway. — lfdder 14:07, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      As the opener of this thread, I had two questions and none of them involved desysopping. Restated, they were if Flyer22's block was a good one and what admins should consider when the bright line of WP:3RR hasn't been breached. I think an RFC/U is premature but hope that DP keeps other alternatives to blocking in mind when faced with a similar situation in the future. Taking an extra step before blocking, however fruitless it may seem (or turn out to be), is not always a bad thing. That's all I want to say about the RFC/U matter. --NeilN talk to me 14:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Neil, that's exactly my point: you opened a thread with 2 key questions. Of course, it would have been ridiculous for anyone to comment on the first prior to seeing what analysis I went through to got to the 2 block blocks. So, last night, I posted the thought process that went behind them. Your second question is philosophical, and AN is really not the right place for that type of question. Through my thorough analysis, I provided very good reason why alternative methods were not possible at that time, at least in my judgement. However, nobody else seems to be responding to your questions - well, one person did unblock. That was your sole response. Torches and pitchforks were optional. Welcome to the world of AN/ANI :-) the panda ɛˢˡ” 14:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      So we're supposed to wait around while an editor is under what seems to be a bad block for you to chime in? No, sorry. Other editors can look at the exact same situation you did and give their independent opinions. --NeilN talk to me 14:42, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Actually the consensus from the beginning of the thread was exactly that wait 'til Panda re-reviews. The clear point here is that what appeared on the surface to be a "possibly bad block" actually wasn't necessarily a clearly bad block once the explanation was given. Funny how the heat:light ratio could have been avoided if the conversation had merely continued on my talkpage, eh? the panda ɛˢˡ” 14:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Funny, I read consensus as Flyer22 should not have been blocked. Something you still seem to disagree with. --NeilN talk to me 14:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Nope. Re-read the first few comments. Again, the consensus that you're talking about came before anyone knew the rationale behind the blocks. the panda ɛˢˡ” 15:11, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Personally, I think this is probably not the best place to be seeking clarification of the feedback (and/or the issues or supposed issues which are apparently being raised) in relation to your adminship as it is not a single action or comment or incident which has motivated this; I'm sure you realise that. I expect a lot of useful feedback and perspective can emerge from another venue (such as a RfC if its structured properly and the requirements are complied with); it's always better to take that type of option than to wait for a time when there are a greater number of "pitchforks", but ultimately it's your call if you choose to self-initiate an RfC/U or not, or consent to an RfC/U or not. It will depend on whether or not you're ready and willing to hear others thoughts on both the good bits and the bits which you could consider handling differently or improve on. On another note, there are a number of admins who jump into contentious issues, but not all of them feel this sort of backlash. I can even point to some, if they would let me, whom after taking up an RfC or similar route, modified just a few features of their approach and encounter this sort of trouble/outrage/scrutiny on a much smaller scale despite continuing to address those problems for the Community on an ongoing basis. To me, it shows they work even more effectively now handling the worst kind of editing or problems than if they did not heed the advice given to them or if they weren't ready to even consider acting carefully with another approach. That's my suggestion, but I realise that each person is different and it might equally be be something that you're not ready to do too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:11, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Ding ding ding, you win! This thread is supposed to discuss the block. It's supposed to discuss my analysis that led to the block. Somebody else turned it personal. ALl attempts to steer it back on track so that I can potentially learn what was wrong with my analysis that led to this specific pair of blocks has failed miserably. My sole conclusion from that is therefore: nothing was actually wrong, now that we understand it. Which oddly enough, makes the whole "desysop" thing rather moot now...doesn't it. the panda ɛˢˡ” 14:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Now that a winner has been declared, perhaps an uninvolved admin wouldn't mind closing this more-heat-than-light thread... Yunshui 雲水 14:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Discussion of your analysis is half the issue. Discussion of the actions you took after your analysis is the other half. --NeilN talk to me 14:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      What actions were those? Please feel free to point them out. the panda ɛˢˡ” 14:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      At the conclusion of your analysis the action you took was blocking. Your analysis told you there was edit-warring going on. There were a variety of actions you could have taken to stop it. --NeilN talk to me 15:01, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, admittedly there were other possible solutions. But I made a judgement call based on the intelligence I had gathered that was well-within the realm of admin responsibility, and provided the rationale when requested untik WP:ADMINACCT. There are always multiple ways to resolve something - I chose one valid path, and other people would have taken other paths. That's both a good thing and bad thing. the panda ɛˢˡ” 15:11, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      User:EatsShootsAndLeaves - Blocking the users was disruptive to the wikia (and not at all needed within wikia rules), as this chat and others such as on your chat page and the blocked users chat page clearly indicates and your actions continues to be disruptive due to your refusal to accept the obvious and walk away. Mosfetfaser (talk) 15:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      @Mosfetfaser: Wikia? --AmaryllisGardener talk 15:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      10.68.16.31

      10.68.16.31 is apparently User:ClueBot III editing logged out again. I informed Jayron32 (the admin that blocked it last time in April), and they told me to come here. Here are some diffs: [27] [28] [29]. --AmaryllisGardener talk 19:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      It looks like the bot has logged back in. I unblocked the IP after realizing the block could cause misdirected XFF blocks. However, what seems concerning is how the bot is still editing after the emergency shutoff has been activated. I'm not the most experienced with bots and would welcome the input of others. Mike V • Talk 22:14, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      After a quick chat with Deskana, I've blocked the bot. Mike V • Talk 22:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm confused. Is the bot making bad edits? If not then it seems churlish to block it simply because the stop button doesn't work - especially as that stops it working logged in and not logged out - precisely the reverse of what we want. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 06:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC).
      Agreed - Is the bot making bad edits ? Then it should be blocked, but if it's doing what it's supposed to do, then there's no problem (even if it's logged out ) KoshVorlon   Angeli i demoni kruzhili nado mnoj 10:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      The issue is twofold. First, the bot was performing edits while logged out. It's my understanding from the bot policy that this should not occur and that the use of extensions such as AssertEdit should be implemented. Second, the bot was performing edits logged in while the shut off was in place, which makes it noncompliant with its own emergency protocol. There's even a message on the bot's page that encourages admins to block it if it is malfunctioning. I'm not trying to be churlish or pedantic. It's simply a case of the bot not functioning as it is intended. Mike V • Talk 15:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I agree that the latter (emergency shutoff not working) would justify blocking the bot; however, the first wouldn't - if the only malfunction in the bot is that it would edit when not logged in, then blocking it would do no good to stop the trouble. Even in the case of bots, blocks should only be used to prevent malfunctionm edits or unapproved tasks - and merely editing while logged out some of the time doesn't constitute either of these the rest of the time. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 18:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      In short, if we can't trust that it will stop editing when told to, we can't trust that it will follow other instructions properly as well. The operators are good and reliable, so of course we're not accusing them of bad faith, but they've apparently made some mistake that temporarily makes the bot undependable. Nobody's going to object to an unblock once the operators say that the coding problems are fixed. Nyttend (talk) 22:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Request for forgiveness

      More than a year has passed since I was blocked for stupidily threatening User:Jayron32. I'm from Argentina and after an edit-war, I said the following: "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian..." or so I said. I well-deserved to be blocked because I was beyond immature and stupid. Then, I created another account to start anew as a respected user. Well, the sock-puppetry accusations began and I couldn't ever again work on Wikipedia. I deny sock-puppetry since I don't, I can't use blocked accounts and I'm not interested in having more than one account. So, I'm now asking to be forgiven and allowed to create another account and start anew. Thank you indeed. --190.178.156.205 (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Don't even remember it, but if you're here to do good work, go do that. --Jayron32 23:04, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      From what I can see, I would support the editor coming back. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Thank you Jayron for giving me a second and last opportunity!, I've been working in the shadows and doing well with User:Japanesehelper but I'm afraid of going public (i.e. nominating candidates for Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates) and getting blocked for the alleged "sock-puppetry" that never occurred since I never used two accounts at the same time. Who can guarantee me that "Japanesehelper", my only account, will not be blocked? Thank you.--190.178.183.38 (talk) 23:11, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      No one can guarantee anything, but the person you attacked has given his blessing for you to be back, one other person thinks that is the best unbureaucratic way to deal with the problem (me), and assuming you just edit and stay out of trouble and not war or get into fights, I don't see a problem. Assuming others don't argue against this solution, you could just point to this discussion. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Perfect. You can see my record with "Japanesehelper", it's cleaner than a brand new t-shirt. I was immature when that happened. Promise it won't happen ever again. --Japanesehelper (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Doesnt sockpuppetry include using new accounts to evade blocks? Howunusual (talk) 00:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Yes and no. We're not here to mete out perpetual punishment, we're here to build an encyclopedia. This isn't a game. If Japanesehelper wished to be helpful, I am not going to get in their way. --Jayron32 00:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      It is a legitimate question, but again I agree with Jayron. When someone appears to be very sincere, apologetic and sets a clear future path for their behavior, and the person who was on the receiving end last time (Jayron) gives their blessing, I think we owe it to ourselves and them to take a chance. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Probably worth verifying whether this is an IP sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/AndresHerutJaim/Archive, a racist ultranationalist extremist and sociopathic liar who in the spare time off wiki writes things like "fucking mohammedan apes and baby-killers", "Fuck you !! stupid Islamofascist terrorist ape dressed in rags. I hope you and all your family of monkeys shall receive what you deserve when Israel kick your coward ass. Asshole! ISRAEL WIN", "Don’t worry bitch, nobody wants your fucking Arab Keffiyeh. Nobody wants to look like an ugly terrorist monkey, except for Purim", "¡¡¡God bless Nakba!!! (Jewish victory over the war of extermination that the Arabs brought upon them 65 years ago). Never in history was a "catastrophe" so well deserved! God bless Israel. Keep strong, united, prepared and brave.", ""palestine" does not exist, never did and never will", "Yes, you are in this struggle and you will be defeated like all the enemies of my nation. I'm a Jew from Argentina who soon will make Aliya and join the IDF in order to kick, destroy and fight against bullshit scum like you. Fuck off you fucking marxist. Leave Israel with all your fucking Arab ape friends. We don't want people like you in Medinat Israel. AM ISRAEL CHAI VE KAIAM ISRAEL WIN". Sean.hoyland - talk 04:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I should add that Japanesehelper does not look like AndresHerutJaim, but AndresHerutJaim's persistent socking via both accounts and Argentina based IPs has been such a major problem over the past few years in the WP:ARBPIA topic area and its suburbs that experienced editors will assume that any Buenos Aires based IP active in the ARBPIA topic area that appears to be advocating for Israel or against Palestine or Iran is a sock. Is there a diff for the comment "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian..." ? Sean.hoyland - talk 05:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I have to agree some idea of who this editor actually is would be helpful, at least if we are going to give any indication they may be allowed to stick around.
      I don't know much about the editor Sean.hoyland mentions above, but Special:Contributions/Japanesehelper is looking a lot like Special:Contributions/Timothyhere who abused many sockpuppets Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Timothyhere + Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Timothyhere + many which were either blocked per WP:DENY or which unblocked but had their contributions deleted). While obviously it was never confirmed by a CU, they did sometimes edit under an Argentinian IP. Particularly in their later stages, they seemed to mostly troll the Reference Desk, Help Desk and Teahouse. But they did hang around ITN at various stages. Beyond simple trolling, they did seem to have a particular interest in Nazi Germany and serial killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer similar to Japanesehelper.
      They also claimed to be Japanese at least once Special:Contributions/Kotjap with a corresponding interest in Japanese related topics although I think they showed the same interest even with other identities. Kotjaps claims to be Japanese weren't particularly believable. IIRC they claimed to be living in Japan with some elaborate back story like being a 55 year old former hikikomori who's father beat them [30] yet never showed any actual evidence of understanding Japanese. (I can't recall if they ever explicitly said they spoke Japanese but I think they did repeatedly saying they were not a native English speaker, which may be true regardless, which combined with their claims about their identity lead to an obvious conclusion. And even IIRC when Japanese editors suggested they ask their question in Japanese they never said they didn't actually speak Japanese.) Or really any evidence of knowing that much about Japan you would expect from someone who lived there. (And of course, it's very likely they were editing from an Argentinian IP.)
      As stated above, it seemed clear they were trolling. Over time, it became fairly obvious they already knew the answer to many of their 'questions' or otherwise didn't care. Furthermore, beyond the Japanese identity, they pretended to be from all over the world usually mentioning stuff in 'my country' or similar. In particular, in many of their later identities, they claimed to be from tiny island/s nations, or at least small poor places you wouldn't generally expect many wikipedians from.
      I don't know if they ever said the stuff about "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian" to Jayron32, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't the reason why the Timothyhere round of socks was blocked. It could be that the AndresHerutJaim and Timothyhere group are the same editor and no one noticed before. I would also note that if it's either editor, their indication their disruption stopped over a year ago isn't particularly believable. (I believe there were more recent Timothyhere socks than the late June ones but I'm lazy to look for them.)
      I'm not suggesting an immediate block since I'm not seeing an obvious signs of disruption under the new account. And if it is Timothyhere they seem to have given up on pretending to be from places they clearly aren't. But if it's either or both editor/s, lying about their history and why they were blocked is not a good sign. And they should expect to be on a short leash not because of anything to do with forgiveness but because we have good reason to think they can't be trusted to continue to edit.
      Edit: The most recent probably trolling from Timothyhere I can find is Special:Contributions/190.178.141.180. It's nothing particularly wrong but given the history it was hard to believe their claim they were "working for a psychology project on the case regarding Kato". Also looking a bit more, I think Timothyhere had an interest in terrorism and in particular Al Qaeda under their many identities, in particular in relation to Canada. But I don't recall much interest in the Israel-Palestinian issue or Iran.
      Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      This is not the correct process for requesting an unblock. The editor says their account was blocked 1 year ago and they apparently set up a sock account to continue editing shortly afterwards. They have not even told us what the original account was, or how they were blocked. Furthermore, if they continue editing, they are not normally allowed to make a clean start but must keep the old account after it has been unblocked. My suggestion is to close this discussion thread, block the IP and Japanesehelper, and ask them to make the request on their talk page or, if that is blocked, through email. At that time, a CU can be conducted. TFD (talk) 07:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • In a nutshell, it is easier to watch someone when they are in the open, and the liklihood of them becoming productive is higher as well. My opinion hasn't changed. I won't block and would oppose anyone else at this juncture. Wait and see, monitor, hope for the best. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      I don't want to make a big deal about this, and I would take it somewhere else if I knew where that place was, but the user CmdrDan appears to believe that simply adding a category to an article creates the category, so he's added a number of redlinked categories to articles. Can someone who's more familiar with categories than I am have a talk with him? Thanks. BMK (talk) 05:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Left a note, HTH. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 07:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC).

      Arbitration motion regarding Falun Gong 2 (User:Ohconfucius)

      The Arbitration Committee has superseded the topic ban imposed on Ohconfucius (talk · contribs) in the Falun Gong 2 case by motion:

      The Committee resolves that remedy 2 (Ohconfucius topic-banned) in the Falun Gong 2 arbitration case is suspended for the period of one year from the date of passage of this motion. During the period of suspension, any uninvolved administrator may, as an arbitration enforcement action, reinstate the topic ban on Ohconfucius should Ohconfucius fail to follow Wikipedia behavior and editing standards while editing in the topic area covered by the suspended restriction. In addition, the topic ban will be reinstated should Ohconfucius be validly blocked by any uninvolved administrator for misconduct in the topic area covered by the suspended restriction. Such a reinstatement may be appealed via the normal process for appealing arbitration enforcement actions. After one year from the date of passage of this motion, if the ban has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the topic ban will be repealed.

      For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      Discuss this

      Psst, bit of a backlog at WP:UAA

      Thanks.--ukexpat (talk) 19:42, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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