Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 131

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Aria articles with youtube links

There have recently been created quite a few articles on individual arias that have links to youtube recordings and videos. For example Caro nome che il mio cor, created today, links to a recording by Callas on youtube, Ella giammai m'amò, links to youtube performances by Ferrucio Furlanetto and Christoff, Tu che le vanità, three youtube links. Is it OK to do this? Youtube links are unstable for one thing and these articles are likely to go for years without revision. If it is OK to link to youtube for individual arias, why don't we do it for entire operas? I could add a zillion of them. And I am sure at least some of these are copyright violations. Any advice?Smeat75 (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

So long as they're not copyright violations, I'm not aware of any policy reason these could not be in the "External links" section. Youtube is not, in general, a reliable source, and a recording would be a primary source, so as a citation they are at best iffy.
But I have a hard time imagining most such clips are not copyright violations. Of the six clips linked in your above three articles, three are licensed for publication on Youtube (you can see licensing details in the video's description); the remaining three are very probably copyright violations. And WP:ELNEVER and WP:LINKVIO prohibits including such links. --Xover (talk) 17:18, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
I haven't found good-faith YouTube links to be unstable. If they are uploaded by the artist, the artists' company or representative, the recording label or studio, or by YouTube, they are not copyright violations. If they are copyright violations (which all of the ones you mentioned are), they should not be added to Wikipedia, and should be removed. Softlavender (talk) 09:43, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Rossini

Tim riley and I have been working on Rossini's article and now have it up for peer review, en route, we hope, to FAC. Any comments, queries or suggestions for improvement will be most welcome there.--Smerus (talk) 10:17, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Some of the images are a bit weirdly cropped. But I'll get that fixed. A lot of them just need the high-res copies grabbed from over on Gallica. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 10:37, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Many thanks Adam! -- Smerus (talk) 10:55, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm not interested in working on that article, but I note that, with the exception of Rossini's crypt, all the images are people, and nearly all of them are close-ups of people. Maybe a picture of an important theater or two could make the visual impression less monotonous? Or maybe a bit of manuscript? Just a fairly minor suggestion. - kosboot (talk) 11:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

La donna serpente

There's a requested move for La donna serpente (opera), which deals with the question if fame or history decide if a play gets a disambiguation or the opera based on it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:10, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Result: not moved. Voceditenore (talk) 10:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Hey again!

So, it's been a while, but I think I'm back, at least for a while. Have a bit more time and energy for things. Trying to catch up on some of the old illustration projects.

is the first.

I have a number of things I can work on. Gallica has a LOT of images in that line. If people suggest things, I'll see what I can do. Need to remind myself how to download Gallica things, though, as two years off means you forget a lot of stuff. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 09:16, 10 January 2019 (UTC)


Well, if you're not going to suggest things, you get what you get.

You do such a great service Adam Cuerden. I've consulted Gallica a number of times. If there were more people involved with WP:Opera, it would be cool to assemble a list of operas not in WP but where Gallica has lots of material. Also, at the local Wikipedia Day event, someone gave a talk on how so many images lack appropriate or enough categories. Images from operas shouldn't be just about the opera, but any relevant ideas that are illlustrated. - kosboot (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Welcome back Adam! I've added that wonderfully arresting Rigoletto scene to the Featured Picture rotation at Portal:Opera. I like your idea about assembling images of operas for which we have no articles, kosboot. I wish I had the time for it, but perhaps someone here will get to it. Gallica is such a treasure trove, but I always do the process in reverse—create the article and then hunt up an illustration at Gallica. Voceditenore (talk) 16:59, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Glad to be back! I needed a break to.. um, write the music to a couple operettas. Not that they'll be performed anytime soon. Probably going to try to work through Philippe Chaperon (et al)'s stuff one or two a month for the foreseeable future, so just give me a poke about anything you could use help with.
Oh, could someone check Haydée? The article was a little too short for three images, so I threw the Chaperon into the infobox for now. We could instead lose the alright-but-not-amazing sketch. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 17:04, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Great to have you with us, Adam. LouisAlain is taking commissions for anything in French, just created a director today. Drop him titles under "January" on his talk, and say I sent you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
ps: could someone who knows ths title standards give a better title to that director's image, please? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Done. I'm thinking I might just go for one of the easy ones next: Tannhauser. Nice imagery, and the article is criminally under-illustrated. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 17:49, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
How do we find the images you put on Gallica Adam? The others seem to know but I don't.Smeat75 (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2019 (UTC):
I assume you mean how do we find images on Gallica. Here's an advanced search page in English. You can see under "Type of document" one of the options allows you to search for images: https://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/advancedSearch/ - kosboot (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. I misunderstood what Adam was saying. I do know how to search on Gallica, I thought Adam was saying he had some cache of special images just for this project stored away somewhere.Smeat75 (talk) 23:16, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
While it is easy to find images on Gallica, it is a bit tricky to download them in the highest possible quality. Gallica only offers complete images in a reduced resolution or small selections in high resolution. You have to use a script or a special URL as described on c:Commons:Gallica.--Rodomonte (talk) 08:04, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Of which only the first suggestion works - the tool is broken. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 08:22, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
I use the old ocaml script which has recently been deleted. It does still work on my linux system. --Rodomonte (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

The Barber of Seville

So, new image () - please position it in the article(s) as you see fit. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 20:06, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Les Huguenots discography

There is a separate article Les Huguenots discography which has a list containing many pirated recordings. Opera D'Oro might be OK but then there are really totally unacceptable ones imo "Handelman", "Premiere Opera" and others. I think they should all be removed, then the legitimate recordings moved to the Les Huguenots article and the "Les Huguenots discography" article deleted. It gets very very few views, unlike the main article. I am going to incorporate the most significant recordings into the main article and would welcome input as to what to do about the separate "discography".Smeat75 (talk) 22:27, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Definitely delete the bootleg recordings not in the table. I don't see the necessity of merging the article with the one on the opera. Presumably there will be more recordings. - kosboot (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
On which subject... Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 23:56, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Translated articles

There are two new translated articles that could need a fresh pair of eyes to look at them. Ewandro Stenzowski and Landestheater Detmold. The first is translated from Brazilian Portuguese, the second from German. I have been reading machine translations and foreign languages all night, and fear I might have lost a bit of proper English along the way. Thanks! OrestesLebt (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you especially for the latter which is now off my to-do-list ;) - will look, but not right now, - everybody welcome to beat me to it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
I looked at the theatre: great job. I fixed obvious things (European dates, UK english terms, no italics for names, no links to current countries ...), gave it a real infobox, authority control and the German National Library template. I removed some flowery language, but am too tired for more. More independent sources would be great! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, and I'm glad I unknowingly shortened your to-do list! I'm going to look for independent sources for the Landestheater Detmold. The theatre has a new website, all citations linking to the old one produce 404 errors. If the content has been moved to new URLs, I have so far been unable to find them. Rather than trying to fix links to dead sources, I should have spent the time to find independent ones, I guess. I just replaced the links in the de:Landestheater Detmold article with archived versions. I figured that's better than dead links, as long as my edits get approved prior to the theatre getting its website in order. OrestesLebt (talk) 12:11, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, fine, and good idea to look for independent sources. I added an architectoral site. I now also looked at the tenor, wondering if we need appearances in secondary roles, and all these details in the recordings. I removed the word "notable" from the heading, - we wouldn't mention them if not ;) - What do others think about the detail? I did a few things I'll list here because other editors might also profit from it, and it's hard to find in edit summaries:
  • titles of operas should always be italic, and come with a hint at the composer (without link if the opera has an article), just by last name if well known such as Verdi, otherwise first name also, which is also needed for ambiguous names such as Strauss
  • to make the title italic, you can simply have the italic markup around the link (no need to repeat the title just for the italics, only if different from the article name)
  • similarly: in interlanguage links ("ill" is enough), you only need to specify the link text (lt=) if different from the name in English, so in the common case of English and translated the same, it comes down to {{ill|name|language code}}
  • try to find links, - I added two and one ill-link to the recordings, which should make them look more notable ;) - no more time for him today, but will get back to it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:38, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your help and advice. Leaving out information I found is hard for me, I confess! Sorry for my continued use of the verbose interlanguage links, I'm using the visual edit and the template creates the links that way. I'll remember to clean up in source from now on! OrestesLebt (talk) 12:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Understand, - I opted out Visual Editor ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:45, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Landesbühne

Did some work on de:Landesbühne, since I plan to translate the article and it was a bit outdated. If native german speakers could have a look at my edits before I start translating, I would be extremely grateful! (I'll leave a message at de:Wikipedia Diskussion:WikiProjekt Oper too.) OrestesLebt (talk) 12:41, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but not today, and the Germans should know better. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:45, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
It got checked already. I created Landesbühne from it, and made extensive use of the shorthand interlanguage links. Thanks for the tip! OrestesLebt (talk) 17:09, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Good to know, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:01, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Eyes needed on Nicky Spence

Young tenor, on his way up. Repeated attempts to add PR promo, much of it copyvio, and a lengthy list of every bit part he's ever sung, starting in college. He's been reverted by three different editors, but he's very persistent [1], [2], [3], [4]. Needless to say the editor doing this is named... er... NickySpence. Voceditenore (talk) 08:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

You did a great job cleaning this up! OrestesLebt (talk) 14:05, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, OrestesLebt! It was quite a struggle as the editor behind the mess simply would not "get it". I'm not sure that they do even now despite a series of stern messages on his talk page from Signora Voceditenore. So keep it on watch. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:30, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Philippe Chaperon

Created, but deleted as the links I suggested as sources of additional info.... were instead directly translated. But I'd imagine there's some salvageable content in there if an admin wanted to go in and grab it and strip the copyvio? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 04:01, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I recreated it as a stub with much better sources, but as I was in the middle of doing this, the deleting administrator restored the pre-copyvio unreferenced stub with the erroneous date of birth. Anyhow, I've now fixed that, re-added the proper references, etc. and will expand this during the day. Voceditenore (talk) 09:09, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
You deserve extra praise, because the deleting admin went from 1 day block first try to 1 month second, - I wonder what the escalation would have been ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:23, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Well, Gerda, the admin wouldn't have blocked me for my stub, so I wasn't in any danger . Translation in articles is particularly tricky. Even a straight translation from another language Wikipedia requires attribution. But worse, I have found that many articles on the "foreign" WPs are themselves copyvios – verbatim copies from external copyright sources. Frankly, I strictly avoid creating articles via translation from other WPs for that reason. Straight translation from foreign language external sources is also a big no-no. Such translations are derivative works and are protected by the copyright of the work being translated. Members will find Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Copyright guidelines a useful resource for all aspects of avoiding copyvio in opera-related articles. Voceditenore (talk) 12:24, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Well, the admin blocked for a month for rephrasing 3 lines not sufficiently, - we can't be too careful ;) - I confess that I was determined to not let the stub be the last word, - only delightful other work prevented that, - so even more praise for shortening my unwritten to-do-list, which LouisAlain also did by creating Marc Piollet. Joy to the World! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Please let me repost here something I wrote somewhere else and was left unanswered:

  • Since I couldn't defend my case while being blocked, I now seize the opportunity. I kinda understood one of the tenets of Wikipedia is to suppose good faith from others. As pertains the copyvio issue, I naively thought that a translation wasn't considered a copywright otherwise I wouldn't have made the error of course. That's probably why I didn't understand Fram's stand on this point. As you may notice, I'm not a native English speaker, which may help have another point of view about my participation. I'm reproached to act like I was a stubborn teenager who refuses to follow the rules. How wrong some are. Didn't J. Wales said that one shouldn't hesitate to break the rules? As a matter of fact, I'm not trying to break the rules, I apply them as best as I can. Just, I do not always understand the messages left on my talkpage.
  • The very first days I became involved here I was sternly scolded by User:Ssilvers for the use of i.boxes. From this day I've completely let down said i.b. Fram told me not to use the {{not to confuse}} template so I stopped the very same day. Then I was told not to use translating machines (why?). I've created + 3,200 pages here and so far nobody raised the issue of the quality of my translations. They're not 100% perfect of course and sometimes some user corrects what needs to be corrected (rarely).
  • Boleyn warned me about the lack of references in some of the articles I translate from German. As easy as it is to find millions of inline refs regarding Bob Dylan or Abe Lincoln, finding refs about an obscure German tenor of the 19th-century isn't. Yet, I do now make research on the German internet and find bits of references.
  • Not to mention my near total unability to deal with htlm.
  • What more can I do?

LouisAlain (talk) 18:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

If the rules were to be strictly implemented, about 90% of Wikipedia (probably in all languages) should be deleted. That's a real dilemna indeed. There are hundreds of thousands pages only in the en. Wikipedia that lack basic references and external links, categories, authority control, portals, intra links etc. The fuss that erupted because of my good-faith based translations verges to surrealism. For what it's worth, LouisAlain (talk) 12:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't really get to see much beyond the article being gone and a claim everything was copyvio, which certainly threw me. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.3% of all FPs 15:39, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Just take a look at LouisAlain's talk page. If I was he, I'd archive all this stuff. We colleages are all equal, especially some. He didn'r even mention the episode of expansion of theatre article being revdeled because an attribution was missing from where that was translated. If I had noticed, I would have just added that attribution. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:58, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Louis Alain has created thousands of articles full of mistakes

User:LouisAlain, currently blocked for copyvios, has created more than three thousand articles [5] in his brief time here, a lot of them related to historic singers and other opera topics. I only paid attention to what he was doing the other day when I noticed he was creating hundreds of red links. The articles seem to be mostly translations (machine translations?) and a lot of the articles have no citations at all. We do get hoaxers like the edditor who invents phony opera recordings, how do we know he isn't making stuff up? They are written in very poor English, obviously in haste, for instance in this version of Joséphine Fodor [6], which I have since corrected, he spells "Saint Petersburg" three different ways in a few sentences - St. Petersburg,Saint-Petersbourg, and St-Petersbourg, this can only be carelessness, it cannot be excused by English not being his first language. The articles are full of howlers such as Shortly afterwards, she suffered from vocal affection or in another article he called recordings "audio carriers" [7]. I know he is collaborating with User:Gerda Arendt so I don't like to try to get him blocked indefinitely but these are really terrible articles and I cannot check three and a half thousand of them. Is it better to have these bad articles than no articles at all about the subjects? What should we do?Smeat75 (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

One of the articles he created is pictured on top of this page right now. He is blocked because he made the (horrible?) mistake of placing a translation in article space that was supposed to be deleted after being read. I can't delete ... - I do believe that a translated article, even in bad English, is better than no article: it offers the other languages, it offers links within the English Wikipedia, it invites to improve. I am dealing with a Recent death, or would make a list of articles for attention. What should we do? Improve articles, any articles, that we think could be improved. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:13, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Smeat75, they do contain, at times, poor translation, and of course if they are translated from other Wikipedias, they may well contain factual errors or unsupported assertions. Sometimes they are copyvios as well, which then get imported here inadvertently. Those are risks with translating any article from other Wikipedias. English Wikipedia has many, many thousands of articles like that and worse. Personally, I don't do creation by translation for that very reason. I prefer to start from scratch. But... I am inclined to agree with Gerda that on the whole LouisAlain's articles are more of plus than a minus, and are not a serious problem, especially if it is simply poor translation. Certainly, not enough to start going through 3000+ articles, nor for attempting to get him indef blocked. His current block has nothing to do with the translated articles. He's also been warned about this now. When he returns from the block, I'd suggest keeping an eye on any new translated articles he creates via this bot page to see if the problem persists. Where appropriate tag them with {{cleanup-translation}} and/or {{Refimprove}}. Voceditenore (talk) 16:04, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
OK,I will be guided by the two of you,no point asking for advice unless you are going to heed it.Smeat75 (talk) 21:45, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I have been checking his articles and cannot resist sharing this gem - The article about a librettist Bela Jenbachl which User:LouisAlain, or a machine he has used, has translated the German article's sentence "Zuerst hielt er sich mit Gelegenheitsarbeiten und dem Schreiben von trivialer Literatur über Wasser" as At first he kept himself busy with casual work and writing trivial literature about water. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha , that is totally hilarious, I really want to read this trivial literature about water, I have had it with deep literature about water! But is WP supposed to be a joke? I think that is really beyond the pale, unacceptable to be creating this kind of gibberish in THOUSANDS of articles. Still,I try to stay calm,accept what Gerda and Voceditenore told me, don't hassle it and just try to improve the articles bit by bit.Smeat75 (talk) 03:28, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Smeat75, usually when a widespread cleanup of hundreds or thousands of articles is needed, it is reported at WP:ANI. I suggest you report there, and also specifically mention the mistranslation, etc. Softlavender (talk) 02:10, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Ummm, those ANI cases are generally for widespread serious problems with an editor's work such as serial copyvio, unreferenced BLPs, paid editing and/or promotion, etc.. I'm not saying the translations are unproblematic, simply that a bit of tact can go a long way and should be tried first. I'm going to give the editor some tips on his talk page as to a better way moving forward. In the meantime, I really wish the personal ridicule of him both here and on some article talk pages could be toned down. This is a good faith editor in need of guidance not public shaming. I know it's a cliché, but there's a fellow human being behind that computer screen. Voceditenore (talk) 13:06, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

RILM Music Encyclopedias

I just had a chance to examine a resource RILM Music Encyclopedias - scanned/encoded versions of 54 dictionaries/encyclopedias. It's available at my public library but not from home (perhaps some academic institutions make it available from home for alumni). The list of encyclopedias is very interesting - I know a number of these works are among the only places to find biographical information on certain musicians. I've put the ones most useful for opera research in bold:

  • Algemene muziekencyclopedie
  • Annals of Opera
  • Band Music Notes
  • Biographical Dictionary of Afro-American and African Musicians
  • Biographical Dictionary of Musicians: With a Bibliography of English Writings on Music
  • Biographical Dictionary of Russian/Soviet Composers
  • Biographie universelle des musiciens et bibliographie générale de la musique
  • Biographisch-bibliographisches Quellen-Lexikon
  • Blasmusik-Lexikon: Komponisten – Autoren – Werke – Literatur
  • Broadway: Its History, People, and Places: An Encyclopedia
  • Československý hudební slovník osob a institucí
  • Concise Garland Encyclopedia of World Music
  • Conductors and Composers of Popular Orchestral Music: A Biographical and Discographical Sourcebook
  • Dictionary of American classical composers
  • Dictionary of Music and Musicians (A.D. 1450–1889)
  • Dictionary of the Avant-Gardes
  • Dictionnaire de la musique: Les hommes et leurs œuvres
  • Dictionnaire de la musique: Science de la musique: Formes, techniques, instruments
  • Dictionnaire de musique
  • Dictionnaire des œuvres de l’art vocal
  • Dizionario degli editori musicali italiani, 1750–1930
  • Dizionario e bibliografia della musica
  • Dizionario universale dei musicisti (Schmidl)
  • Enciclopédia da música brasileira
  • Encyclopedia of American Gospel Music
  • Encyclopedia of Music in the 20th Century
  • Encyclopedia of Recorded Sound
  • Encyclopedia of the American Theatre Organ
  • Encyclopedia of the Blues
  • Encyclopédie de la musique et dictionnaire du Conservatoire
  • Garland Encyclopedia of World Music
  • Gothic- und Dark Wave-Lexikon: Das Lexikon der schwarzen Szene, von Ambient bis Industrial, von Neofolk bis Future Pop und von Goth-Rock bis Black Metal
  • Großes Sängerlexikon
  • Handwörterbuch der musikalischen Terminologie
  • Historical Dictionary of the Music and Musicians of Finland
  • Hollywood Songsters: Singers Who Act and Actors Who Sing: A Biographical Dictionary
  • Hugo Riemanns Musik-Lexikon
  • International Encyclopedia of Women Composers
  • Komponisten der Gegenwart
  • March Music Notes
  • Melodramma italiano: Dizionario bio-bibliografico dei compositori
  • Neues Historisch-biographisches Lexikon der Tonküstler
  • Opernlexikon (Stieger)
  • Paris Opéra: An Encyclopedia of Operas, Ballets, Composers, and Performers
  • Percussionists: A biographical dictionary (JRG)
  • Steirisches Musiklexikon
  • Tin Pan Alley: An Encyclopedia of the Golden Age of American Song
  • The 20th century violin concertante
  • Παγκοσμιο Λεξικο Της Μουσικης [Pagkosmio Lexiko Tes Mousikes]

Hope this is of some use. - kosboot (talk) 00:40, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FLRC notification

I have nominated List of important operas for featured list removal here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured list criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks; editors may declare to "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Giants2008 (Talk) 16:40, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Update: still ongoing with trend to delist. Voceditenore (talk)

Loewenberg, Annals of Opera

Just realized that this valuable book is available through the Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/AnnalesOfOpera1597-1940. For those that have not used it, it not only gives the dates of the world premiere, but the dates of the first performance in other cities. It doesn't have absolutely everything, but has a great deal. - kosboot (talk) 17:07, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

File:François-Joseph Bélanger - Set design for Gluck's Alceste.jpg

So. Should I replace the painting of Gluck in his infobox, or is this better used as I've put it. I've made it a bit large there for now - I'll probably CSS image crop out the border a bit once the restoration's 100% done since it needs a slight rotation - but there's this really nice figure of Hercules that's hard to see at thumbnail, and I want it seen. Also, I think this might be the third-oldest image I've ever worked on, dating from the 1776 première. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 20:56, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Oh, as a heads up....

There's some weird titles for some of our articles, as in, I can't find evidence anyone uses that name. Dante (opera), Haydée and so on. The last one more forgiveable (it seems the subtitle is almost universally included when talking about it, but it is, at least, a subtitle, the first one simply bizarre. Now, I have been fixing these as I find them (Haydée, ou Le secret, Dante et Béatrice ) but it's probably worth noting that the lesser-known operas seem to be prone to weirdness that one should keep out an eye for. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 21:53, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Images

I think the number is a bit too much to show them all on here, but in case any of them are useful to other articles, here's what I produced during the Rossini push (Besides the one above)

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 05:37, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for all you do Adam, yes I am paying attention but I have a rather limited range of opera articles I edit. Do you have any images of the original, or near contemporary, set designs for William Tell (opera)? I looked on Gallica and wikimedia commons, but all I can see are costume designs. ThanksSmeat75 (talk) 00:53, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
There are some scenic images in the commons subcategories c:Category:Guillaume Tell (Cicéri) and c:Category:Guillaume Tell (Chasselat). --Rodomonte (talk) 07:48, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Heh... William Tell (opera). Funny you should mention that... Let me just hop over to the Rossini peer review.

@Smeat75: Here's an organised list of everything on Gallica I could find: Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 21:07, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

There's a series of illustrations definitely from the opera, which are a little meh.

Contemporary costumes, not very attractive compared to the other costume illustrations if you ask me:

Better contemporary costumes:

Sixteen costumes: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8454519h.r=Guillaume%20Tell?rk=579402;0

Chorus costumes + 4 nice illustrations of the opera: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6401891j.r=Guillaume%20Tell?rk=665239;2


Two costumes, albeit not contemporary, but good:

Set designs from a revival:

One actor in a revival:

Decent, but a little weird:

Weird, but cool:


Now, these I'm not entirely convinced about being of the Rossini opera, despite claims:

  • On the back: Paris Opera 1860, trio from Act II. Duprez, Massol and A N Other.--Smerus (talk) 09:03, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Uncertain:

Meh:

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 21:07, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Wow, what a result! Thanks Adam!Smeat75 (talk)
@Smeat75: Do you know the trick for getting full-resolution copies from Gallica? Or I could do it, if you wanted, just give me the ones you want. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 21:43, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Many of these images are already at commons in the subcategories of the opera. I uploaded them myself some years ago when I wrote the german article. I did not know about the highest resolution back then, but updated many of them later. --Rodomonte (talk) 21:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Ach, useful. Though I think you missed at least one of the Cicéris, or I've doubled a link. They're the first set of links. I'll try to figure this out later. (Never mind: it's just https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7000638d.r=Guillaume%20Tell?rk=85837;2 ) I'm trying to decide how much I trust the Chasselat ones to be of the opera, and not some sort of frankenstein collage of older engravings for the Schiller play. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 22:02, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

That said, I am REALLY tempted to just do the whole set of https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8454519h.r=Guillaume%20Tell?rk=579402;0 - they're particularly beautiful costume designs, and unlike the Benvenuto Cellini set I need to finish sometime, don't have one horribly preserved one in the set to suck all life out of you working on it. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 22:09, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks to Adam and Rodomonte. I have added some images, there have not been any in the body of the text until now. I feel it is important for this type of grand opera to give some idea of the original sets as the scenic spectacle was an important part of the work.Smeat75 (talk) 03:12, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
@Smeat: I'd be careful about the Chasselat ones, though. I think the underlying works predate the opera, with changes to make it a little nearer the opera, hence the frankenstein creations. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 21:14, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Illustrating new articles (a.k.a. I hope someone's paying attention)

Okay. Here's what I found for various new articles:

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 14:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 22:40, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Copyvio tool

If anyone is tempted to create an article via translation, there are tools that can let you know if the article you're translating is itself a copyvio. The main tool is Earwig's Copyvio Detector. Any result over 15-20% (unless the duplication consists of simple lists), and you shouldn't translate. This is the tool's result for de:Marlise Wendels, which was initially deleted here because it was a translation of a copyvio article on the German Wikipedia. (Marlise Wendels has since been recreated here from scratch with different references.) Voceditenore (talk) 16:36, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, also for recreating Wendels. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:12, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Henry VIII

One could maybe argue both ways on this, but File:Saint-Saëns-Henry-VIII-1883.jpg or https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7001018w/f1.item.r=Henry%20VIII%20opera.zoom ?

My inclination is that the second better represents the set, though the figures are likely a bit more arbitrary, and the former might have some indication of staging, but it works out to nothing more than a few hastily-sketched figures in a mob, with maybe some indication of a processional, so the second should win out. And, of course, the colour will make it look better in thumbnail. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.3% of all FPs 21:06, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Titles of operas and plays

Thank you, Smeat75, for copyediting. I came across a general question: how do we name operas and plays. In Günter Krämer: when we read the Stuttgurt section after copy-editing, we get the impression that English was the language of the house, with titles such as Dance of Death (billed and in the source Totentanz) and Mary Stuart (original title Maria Stuart. In the Rossini peer review, we agreed that when an opera is billed and sung in Italian, we better say Il barbiere di Siviglia, explaining once in brackets what that means in English. In 2019, most opera houses produce operas in their original language. I prefer to follow that trend. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

The Dance of Death (Strindberg play) was originally written in Swedish as "Dödsdansen". It is well known in the English speaking world as "The Dance of Death". I don't see any reason to refer to it by its German translation as "Totentanz" even if that was how it was performed in Stuttgart, that is like calling "Un Ballo in Maschera" "Ein Maskenball", I changed that somewhere too. The Schiller play is known in English as Mary Stuart (play). WP:COMMONNAME -Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)....Seven Samurai (not: Shichinin no Samurai). I don't have strong feelings about it though, if you want to change it back to "Maria Stuart" go ahead, I don't think we should call "The Dance of Death" "Totentanz" however.Smeat75 (talk) 14:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
I call Un ballo in maschera Ein Maskenball (with a clarifying link) when it refers to a recording of the 1950s made in Germany, in German. I call it in Italian when referring to a recent performance which will be in Italian. Rossini's opera is known as The Barber of Seville, but that's not what Rossini wrote, nor what is typically performed these days unless you go to ENO or the Komische Oper Berlin, with a program to perform in English resp. German. Perhaps it's time to move the page. - I think we should call the Strindberg play Totentanz because how will a reader ever get the connection to what the source says? While the link can make the connection. - I am not going to revert you, but think it's not worth your time to change such things. Better jewels such as The Fist ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:52, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
I think the opera tends to be advertised as Maria Stuarda even in Scotland (even in a Stirling Castle performance) Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.3% of all FPs 01:57, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
In the case above, it was Schiller's play, though. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:51, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Articles for attention

In the following table, I suggest we list articles where improvements by project members would be helpful, newest on top.

  • created - day and (short) month
  • from - two-digit language code
  • ce - copyedit wanted
  • ref - better references needed
  • cv - check for copyright violation
  • DYK - "nom" for nominated, when appeared, day and (short) month
article created from ce ref cv DYK notes
Hansgünther Heyme 23 Feb de Green tickY 15 Apr
Margit Bokor 9 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 22 Mar
Karl-Josef Kutsch 9 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 18 Mar
Karl Hammes 8 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY
Sylvia Gähwiller 8 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY
Ria Ginster 8 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 20 Mar
Leo Riemens 7 Feb de 18 Mar
Martin Abendroth 7 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY
Tugomir Franc 5 Feb de Green tickY
Koloman von Pataky 5 Feb de Green tickY
Marc Piollet 4 Feb de Green tickY 15 Mar
Robert Schunk 2 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 10 Mar
Ruthilde Boesch 2 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 10 Mar
Spas Wenkoff 2 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 12 Mar
Alfred Jerger 1 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 2 Mar
Claire Born 1 Feb de Green tickY Green tickY 4 Mar
Günter Krämer 31 Jan de Green tickY Green tickY many details, was proposed for deletion
Julia Kleiter 29 Jan de Green tickY Green tickY 27 Feb was moved to draft
Sophie Karthäuser 22 Jan fr Green tickY Green tickY 26 Feb
Vincent Boussard 18 Jan fr Green tickY 24 Feb
Genia Kühmeier 17 Jan de Green tickY Green tickY 22 Feb
Ute Vinzing 7 Jan de Green tickY Green tickY de article written by aficionado
Albert Dohmen 3 Jan de Green tickY Green tickY 23 Jan
Ildikó Raimondi 2 Jan de Green tickY Green tickY 12 Feb

Moved to draft, which should be rescued: Draft:Volker Bräutigam. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:50, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Done and moved back to article space. :) Voceditenore (talk) 19:17, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Smeat75, thank you for all the prose checking and improving! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Kutsch/Riemens

Riemens and Kutsch are now nominated for DYK. It's amazing how little we know about their bios, while they wrote those of 18,760 singers. Any help welcome. Hard to find something online because all you get is the bios they wrote ;) - It looks like a street in Kutsch's hometown was named after him. Any ref? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 14 February 2019 (UTC)


I quote Kutsch/Riemens now like this:
<ref name="Kutsch/Riemens">{{cite book
| last = Kutsch
| first = K. J.
| authorlink = Karl-Josef Kutsch
| last2 = Riemens
| first2 = Leo
| authorlink2 = Leo Riemens
| url = https://books.google.com/books?id=dsfq_5dFeL0C&pg=1948
| title = Hammes, Karl
| work = [[Großes Sängerlexikon]]
| publisher = [[Walter de Gruyter]]
| edition = 4
| language = de
| year = 2012
| page = 1948
| isbn = 978-3-59-844088-5
}}</ref>
Please note that almost everything changed compared to earlier versions: mention Riemens in ref name / authors, not only editors / names as on the book cover / .com instead of .de / publisher as of 2012 / that year (although it says copyright 2004). Suggestions to improve this welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:42, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Rossini now FAC

Gioachino Rossini now up for FA review. --Smerus (talk) 22:57, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

WP 1.0 Bot Beta

Hello! Your WikiProject has been selected to participate in the WP 1.0 Bot rewrite beta. This means that, starting in the next few days or weeks, your assessment tables will be updated using code in the new bot, codenamed Lucky. You can read more about this change on the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team page. Thanks! audiodude (talk) 06:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Buon Compleanno, Gioachino!

To a wonderful composer of wonderful things who must make do with March 1st for three out of his every four birthdays.

Pace gioia, Gioacchino! Voceditenore (talk) 13:03, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Anniversaries for 2019

Voceditenore, we all owe you much gratitude for your monthly rotation of topics at the head of this page. However, I noticed that when I click on "Upcoming Anniversaries" it searches for the year 2018 instead of 2019. Thanks for all that you do! - kosboot (talk) 16:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me, kosboot. I'd forgotten all about it in the mêlée. I've updated the page now and added a small list of 2019 anniversaries, but I encourage you all to add to it. It's quite a soothing activity . Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:10, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Thank you! I looked, and found the one opera with my name in it, planning to write about Emma Holt in time for the October premiere. I can't find a 1919 date for Die Frau ohne Schatten, sorry. A singer of the Rossini Bianca: Violante Camporesi (pictured). Premiere 26 December, but we could do her in March. Rosa Morandi was Rossini's Cristina on 24 September, Maria Manzi sang several of his roles including the 27 March premiere of Ermione. Irene Pavlovska, the first princess in the Oranges, seems mysterious. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Adding 1969. Votre Faust, the 50 years were in January, article could use formatting. Eight Songs for a Mad King, premiere 22 April, could be expanded. Down by the Greenwood Side (opera), premiere in May, a stub more or less. King Midas' Ears, stub, no day of premiere. Das Märchen von der schönen Lilie, premiere 15 May, will do that one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:22, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

So!

Having done a few popular operas, like Fervaal and La Esmeralda, I thought I'd indulge in something a bit more obscure.

I'm not sure I succeeded in the obscurity. Ah, well! Will finish it up, then on to popular operas like La Réve or Thérèse

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.4% of all FPs 12:05, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

FP count

Going just by images featured on the portal - which is kind of a rough guide, as certain FPs are used with FAs or biographies instead of the FP list, I believe some are missing, some are used thematically (e.g. a picture of X, which is the subject of opera Y), and there's also the crossover with the Gilbert and Sullivan Wikiproject, from which only a smaller selection of images were used in our Portal - but, issues with the count aside, we're at 99 FPs in the portal. Next one will be full hundred. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.4% of all FPs 17:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Since I quite like the current crop.... Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.4% of all FPs 19:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

  • They're beautiful, Adam. The Fervaal image is amazing! I've included the "picture of X, which is the subject of opera Y" images in the portal to add greater visual variety, but also as a way to point visitors to many of our other articles which are not developed enough to feature themselves in the portal, but are interesting nevertheless, and give an idea of the scope and breadth of the art form. This and this are examples of "Featured Pictures" of this type. More on the current Portal saga coming below. Voceditenore (talk) 08:36, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Portal matters

The whole Portal space is in the midst of a sprawling controversy spilling over multiple pages. At one point there was a proposal at the Village Pump to eliminate Portal space entirely because of the fairly large number of poorly constructed, overly narrow, and neglected portals. It was defeated as throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. But as a result, a group of editors decided to "revitalize" WikiProject Portals. The original plan was to weed out and delete the hopeless portals and improve the ones on major topics that had been neglected. Well, it was a disaster. They developed a tool to fully automate portals, i.e. turning them into glorified navboxes with no human input as to the choice and quality of the articles and images. They then started converting every portal to this "improved" version and deleting all their subpages unless the portal had a designated maintainer. Needless to say, I nipped over there straight away and made sure they left Portal:Opera, a Featured Portal, strictly alone.

However, they pretty much trashed quite a few decent portals, including featured ones like Portal:Medicine (now reverted to its pre-automated state). They then used their tool, which can create a portal in three minutes, to create over 2000 (!) more portals on even more narrow topics like Yogurt and Rabbits. The result is an ongoing massive discussion at AN and hundreds of time-consuming and at times acrimonious MFDs for the new portals and some old ones. So there you have it. If you haven't already done so, you might want to put Portal:Opera on your watchlist. It currently has 40 watchers, but some of the watchers may no longer be editing Wikipedia. It's been 10 years since we revamped it completely and it was promoted to Featured Portal status. Voceditenore (talk) 08:56, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

...Wow. Just wow. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.4% of all FPs 08:59, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks VdT, I have added it to my watchlist.--Smerus (talk) 09:10, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

"to choreograph an opera"? Phrasing question

Gerda Arendt and I have a phrasing question that came up in Template:Did you know nominations/Raphaëlle Boitel. If someone works as the choreographer for an opera, how should that best be phrased? Currently, Raphaëlle_Boitel#Choreographer says "Boitel choreographed her first opera in ...", which is how I wrote it, but which Gerda is uncomfortable with. She knows a lot more about opera than I do (I've probably seen ten or fewer, and have spent ten or fewer minutes with anyone who describes themselves as a choreographer), and suggests we ask here. For more detail, sources (mostly in French, I'm afraid) say Boitel choreographed dance scenes for one opera, introduced circus performance scenes to another, and are not clear on what exactly she choreographed for her first, just say "Choreography: Raphaëlle Boitel", and yet we shouldn't leave that out as it was her first opera choreography work and at La Scala, which seems to be IT. --GRuban (talk) 07:29, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  • "Boitel first carried out choreography for an opera in.....".--Smerus (talk) 09:08, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Yep. That's much better or "Boitel first provided the choreography for an opera in...." While many operas meant for Paris actually have a ballet sequence in them, the choreography in other operas like Macbeth is more of a modern invention. It's closely linked to the director's "concept" and a product of it. Examples are introducing mute moving or dancing figures who weren't in the original libretto, or making the chorus or even individual singers move in a dance-like way. Voceditenore (talk) 09:20, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Thank you  Done --GRuban (talk) 13:31, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Felix Mendelssohn for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Felix Mendelssohn is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Felix Mendelssohn until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 02:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Note to members This is an example of one of 2000 recently created automated portals that I wrote about above. It was not created and is not maintained by this project. Ditto WikiProject Classical Music. It is a good illustration of how these "instant portals" work. Basically, the "Selected article" section simply rotates those listed in Template:Felix Mendelssohn (regardless of quality). The "Selected picture" simply rotates all the images in the article Felix Mendelssohn (regardless of quality). The "Did you know" section mines the list of Main page DYKs looking for the word "Mendelssohn". Fortunately, the name is so unique that the DYKs will probably all be relevant. But problems have occurred in other automated portals such as Portal:Bears where you get DYKs like "...that American surgeon Dallas B. Phemister created a bone grafting technique which now bears his name?" (my bolding). Portal:Spiders includes DYKs on Spider monkeys, Spider ants, and a flowering plant known as the long-stalk spiderhead. You get my drift. Voceditenore (talk) 09:36, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
My drift the same way: for portal Germany, the automatism looked for specific names, which resulted in Hitler being present in every set. I returned to the manual presentation of the most recent real DYK? Yes, it's extra work, but for readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Articles needing attention in March

It happened again, Draft:Oesterreichisches Musiklexikon. This is a source used often, including for Margit Bokor. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:22, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi Gerda. I've added three more references (Der Standard, Wiener Zeitung, and a book Habsburg neu denken: Vielfalt und Ambivalenz in Zentraleuropa), cleaned it up a bit and moved it back to article space. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:08, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
That's excellent, thank you. I was busy with another woman singer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:13, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Any chance on bulking out Lucy Arbell a bit? I suspect File:Lucy Arbell in Massenet's Thérèse.jpg will pass FPC, and that might drive traffic there once it hits POTD. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.4% of all FPs 14:56, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

AfD: Wynn Creasy

Now an artist but claims to have started out as an opera singer. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wynn Creasy. Voceditenore (talk) 09:33, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Teatro Regio (Turin)

Teatro Regio (Turin) will possibly be linked from the Main page tomorrow. No references, a lead that doesn't even mention that today's house looks diferent from the stunning lead image, - and that's only the beginning. I had hoped to do it but am running out of time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:48, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

It wasn't linked after all, see above, but would profit from improvement. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:55, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Manners

Genuine question: do you want people helping out on creating pages within this wikiproject, or is it just a pain for the regulars, creating tidying up work for you? Because I can't see any purpose in sarcastic edit summaries like this one except to dissuade us almost-true 14:06, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry if I came across as sarcastic where I stated a simple truth. What should I have said? - He performed in Die Lustige Witwe, known in English as The Merry Widow. I tried to help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:22, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
Look perhaps at an example of high quality: Rossini. He composed "Il barbiere di Siviglia (known in English as The Barber of Seville)". ---Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:25, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
... or see here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
@Almost-true: I'm not really a regular of this wikiproject, but in my encounters with Gerda she has been nothing but kind and helpful. How I have usually encountered her is that she wanders the Wikipedia and gives unexpected awards to editors who contribute in unrelated areas. In many ways, she's one of the kindest people contributing here, and I find it hard to imagine her being intentionally hurtful. I looked at that edit, and, I mean no offense, but is there any chance you misinterpreted what she wrote? It really doesn't seem like an attack to me, just a straight forward, if somewhat offhand, statement: Louis Treumann was from Austria, so he almost certainly spoke German, I don't know that opera, but lots of operas are sung in German, so it does seem quite likely he sung in German ... no? Thank you for your contribution, your work here is appreciated. I added a couple of free licensed images to that article, and hope they help. --GRuban (talk) 16:57, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Composer for May

I've stepped up and made a suggestion, which has nothing to do with, say, wanting to perform Le loup-garou in the Edinburgh Fringe within the next couple years.[1] That said, she is a fascinating composer, and one has to wonder what would have become of her had she had the benefit of not being cut off so early. It kind of feels like judging Wagner by Die Feen, or Verdi by Oberto. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.5% of all FPs 21:47, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


  1. ^ How specific!

Mario Del Monaco: edit warring

An edit war is taking place at the article on Mario Del Monaco. Several revisions by User Kaja Enäveri were undone three times (twice by myself) and four times substantially repeated by the same User. In my opinion her edits are to be considered disruptive inasmuch as they add unsourced laudatory statements, remove sourced information and all references , merge the section "Biography" with incipit, insist on writing contractions without an apostrophe, and so on. The User has given no replies to messages posted either on her talk page or on the article's. To date, the status of the article seems completely unpresentable to me, but I am uncertain whether I am entitled to intervene again, and I'd like instead someone else to take a look at the matter and proceed as necessary, according to Wikipedia rules, possibly reverting all intermediate edits to the 30 January version by Ser Amantio di Nicolao (oldid 880954077).--Jeanambr (talk) 08:33, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I reverted to before her changes. She either plays according to our guidelines or needs a block. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:36, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Thanks!--Jeanambr (talk) 09:50, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately, User Kaja Enäveri started editing again.--Jeanambr (talk) 21:50, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I reverted again, and explained again. Any admin watching? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:08, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
She began again, "... wonderful on the opera stage", - anybody to teach her encyclopedic language? I agree with her that the article could use work, the lead is truly poor. I am busy these days, sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Deborah Cook

Sadly, Deborah Cook (soprano) died, with an article rich in detail, and poor in sources. I did my part with the Kutsch-Riemens source (which has the birth year wrong by 10 years), but there's much to be done with her later career. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:50, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Leonie Rysanek

One of the great sopranos, and a practically unsourced article: Leonie Rysanek. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:41, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Ah, it's from 2004–2005, the bad old days when no one really cared about specific sources, let alone inline citations. There are loads of good sources if anyone wants to tackle this:
Also, the image is a blatant copyright violation. Voceditenore (talk) 08:17, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Les pêcheurs de perles move discussion

An editor has requested the move of Les pêcheurs de perles to Les Pêcheurs de perles (currently a redirect [10]). The discussion is at Talk:Les pêcheurs de perles#Requested move 4 May 2019. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:20, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Sara Hershkowitz

Someone "instructed" by the subject, Sara Hershkowitz, removing year of birth which is ok with me (I reverted once), and adding unsourced things. I reverted and explained the need for independent sources and encyclopedic language, but please watch. If you missed her Ligeti performance, change that ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:41, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Didn't see your entry here, else I might have just repaired the last botched edit instead of undoing it. Well, now there is even more source for her birth year … There are even day and month of birth listed for Sara Hershkowitz on wikidata, but the only reference seems to be her German wikipedia article, and I could not find the date in the sources yet. OrestesLebt (talk) 09:26, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
She is keen in having no private infomation such as the year of birth on the internet. Discussion on the article talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:47, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Operatic terms

DYK gives me problems when I say "she created the role", but I remember having been told that that's the way to say it, and "role" not "part". Clarification would be nice. - It's a phrase used in DYK hooks as early as 2010. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I think 'role' is preferable. It aligns with our standard heading in articles, as recommended by WP:WPOSG. It is more specific than 'part' which could refer e.g. to instrumental and choral parts. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:00, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
But DYK is not part of Project Opera. Part of the purpose of DYK is to get the average Wikipedia reader interested in an article. Using this terminology only serves to confuse people who do not have a prior interest in opera. --Khajidha (talk) 13:28, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Do you think these people would even be interested in an article about the specific biography of a singer? - In the articles, they will be given the standard wording used in the field. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:43, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
In articles, "created the role" properly reflects the standard use in the major reference works in the area. However, I tend to agree with Khajidha concerning its use in DYKs. Better to use "sang role X in the world premiere of Y's opera Z" in the hook. The reader can then decide whether their interest is sufficiently piqued to click. Having said that, if people people who do not have a prior interest in opera are truly "confused" (astonished?) by the phrase "created the role of X", it might get them to click on the article just to see what that was all about . Voceditenore (talk) 15:04, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
To my experience, It's more the reviewer who is confused - astonished - or not. A similar hooks just got approved without fuss. I'd like to let it proceed as worded, and look for complaints. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, Gerda, I remember several DYKs in the past where objections to "created the role" as "confusing" were expressed. Can't remember who found them confusing or how the discussions ended. Anyhow, this and the recent time-consuming discussions at Template:Did you know nominations/Hansgünther Heyme and Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Bartlet (musicologist) about articles which I wrote (but were nominated by someone else) make me even less inclined to hang out in that little corner of Wikipedia. Voceditenore (talk) 16:03, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
I am too lazy to look them up but am ready to bet that 90% of the objections came from one editor. I am also too lazy to look up who recently was blocked for diminishing the joy of editing of a fellow editor ;) - I rarely think "good block" but thought that was a good reason. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:12, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Le mage

I hope you'll forgive me, but I'm rather excited about this one. It's my largest restoration in a while, and came out quite well, methinks.

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.6% of all FPs 10:55, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Massenet

This might be an odd question, but I've basically found SOMETHING featureable for every Massenet opera (at least, every one performed, I believe he has some lost operas) but Bacchus, La grand'tante, and Amadis, usually a poster. Any suggestions for those three? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.6% of all FPs 01:42, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

...Also missing L'adorable Bel'-Boule, which our article on Massenet thought was lost. What's this supposed to be, then?
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