Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Darts
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Opinions wanted[edit]
I've posted on the talk page for the Grand Slam regarding a slight rewrite and I'm looking for opinions. Posting here for visibility. Talk:Grand Slam of Darts#Rewrite BDO invitations? - Coventryy (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
WP:SYNTH says: "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Why are all stats in most darts tournament pages, including this one, against this policy? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 14:49, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thoughts @Penepi? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- @ItsKesha What you want to hear? You'll insist on your point anyway, just like you did a year ago with the flags, so virtually any discussion is pointless.
- The averages are clearly stated in all of the given sources/articles. And above all, you yourself know very well that these are correct data. Moreover, it is not some excessive statistics, but the most basic statistics in darts. For example, the fact that all tournaments have a section about highest averages is directly related to this. Penepi (talk) 21:15, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- They aren't "clearly stated", though, that's the whole point. You haven't addressed the salient point of "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Please can you address this in regards to including the stats? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- They are "clearly stated", though, that's the whole point, your subjective feeling that they are not is utterly irrelevant. All my warmest wishes, Penepi (talk) 16:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Can you copy and paste where in the article the averages are listed, or just point me in the general direction within the source? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- No, I can not. There is not a single rational reason for this. It is exclusively your problem that you have obvious problems with reading comprehension or vision. Penepi (talk) 18:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- "No, I can not" - so this is an admission of synth? Thanks, I'll get round to deleting it then All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:31, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- No, it is not. Penepi (talk) 18:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- So can you point me to the list of averages in the source? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I can. Penepi (talk) 19:15, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Go on then please! All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 19:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Which source? Penepi (talk) 19:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter which one! Ideally both! All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Watch any game of darts. Throughout the match they will constantly refer to the players a) 3 dart average and b) their checkout percentage. And in 95% of post match interviews they will mention at least one of these statistics to the player they are interviewing. They are considered highly relevant Dimspace (talk) 16:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- That's not the point. You include information that is sourced. We don't come to our own conclusions based on sources stating different content. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- I was just commenting on their relevancy. This whole WP:SYNTH thing has been heavily discussed on the World Championship talk as well and Itskesha has been unwilling to actually explain in detail what their issue is outside of repeating "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Any sources used for averages will state the 3 dart average. Selecting the ten best averages and putting them in a list is not implying conclusions, its just extracting data from a larger data set. If a source lists ten 3 dart average for a particular day and someone uses 2 of those data points in a "highest average of the tournament" that's not drawing conclusions, its basic data extraction and maths. Equally a match report may say "Player x finished the game with an average of 102.6", elsewhere in a the same report or another report it may say "Player y finished the game with an average of 101.5". Itskesha's argument seems to be that a list of the top ten averages in the tournament is not the same conclusion as a match report (i guess original research would come into play). But like I say, on the extensive thread on the World's talk page he has been unable to explain what statistics he was particularly referencing and how he felt they were a violation outside of just repeating the ""do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Which part of that sentence do you not understand?" line Dimspace (talk) 00:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- For reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024_PDC_World_Darts_Championship#Stats_that_are_against_WP:SYNTH its the same discussion as there, and we didn't get any closer to understanding what the issue actually was. Dimspace (talk) 00:11, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- The complaint seems to be about ordering these averages, which are apparently reported in sources at an individual level (e.g. in coverage of a match), in some kind of top-10 format. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, then there is some substance to the SYNTH claims: if no other sources are presenting these numbers as a ranked list then it could be OR to do so ourselves. JoelleJay (talk) 17:45, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's exactly what the issue is. The idea of collating every average from every match and ranking them is OR, and a SYNTH if you are using a load of sources to make that claim. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- I was just commenting on their relevancy. This whole WP:SYNTH thing has been heavily discussed on the World Championship talk as well and Itskesha has been unwilling to actually explain in detail what their issue is outside of repeating "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Any sources used for averages will state the 3 dart average. Selecting the ten best averages and putting them in a list is not implying conclusions, its just extracting data from a larger data set. If a source lists ten 3 dart average for a particular day and someone uses 2 of those data points in a "highest average of the tournament" that's not drawing conclusions, its basic data extraction and maths. Equally a match report may say "Player x finished the game with an average of 102.6", elsewhere in a the same report or another report it may say "Player y finished the game with an average of 101.5". Itskesha's argument seems to be that a list of the top ten averages in the tournament is not the same conclusion as a match report (i guess original research would come into play). But like I say, on the extensive thread on the World's talk page he has been unable to explain what statistics he was particularly referencing and how he felt they were a violation outside of just repeating the ""do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Which part of that sentence do you not understand?" line Dimspace (talk) 00:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's not the point. You include information that is sourced. We don't come to our own conclusions based on sources stating different content. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- Which source? Penepi (talk) 19:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Go on then please! All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 19:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I can. Penepi (talk) 19:15, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- So can you point me to the list of averages in the source? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- No, it is not. Penepi (talk) 18:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- "No, I can not" - so this is an admission of synth? Thanks, I'll get round to deleting it then All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:31, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- No, I can not. There is not a single rational reason for this. It is exclusively your problem that you have obvious problems with reading comprehension or vision. Penepi (talk) 18:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Can you copy and paste where in the article the averages are listed, or just point me in the general direction within the source? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- They are "clearly stated", though, that's the whole point, your subjective feeling that they are not is utterly irrelevant. All my warmest wishes, Penepi (talk) 16:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- They aren't "clearly stated", though, that's the whole point. You haven't addressed the salient point of "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Please can you address this in regards to including the stats? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Multiple articles broken[edit]
I have just noticed that multiple darts articles are currently largely broken because of the maximum Lua time usable being exceeded. Examples are 2022 PDC World Darts Championship and 2024 PDC World Darts Championship. It's caused by an excessive presence of modules, specifically {{PDCFlag}}. This is something that needs to be resolved.Tvx1 00:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Transgender opinions[edit]
Noa Lynn van Leuven who is transgender recently won a Challenge Tour event (mixed gender) and a Women's Series event. Aileen de Graaf has apparently pulled out of a women's doubles event because she feels embarrassed. The source I have for this is the Daily Mail, which is not considered a reliable source. The same source says that Deta Hedman is against trans women competing in women's only events. Hedman & de Graaf's opinion on trans women would improve the articles. Are there reliable sources that give Hedman and de Graaf's opinion on trans women? (78.19.48.239 (talk) 18:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC))
- Alternative source: https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/1881329/Transgender-darts-statement-controversy-news — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.19.48.239 (talk) 18:32, 28 March 2024 (UTC)