Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky

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Image investigation[edit]

In relation to my oppose. I am listing them here so as to obtain help on ascertaining their status.

  • File:Piano Concerto No. 1 (Tchaikovsky).png: I am ignorant in music, so was this reproduced by ear, or transcribed from one of Tchaikovsky's scores? When was the first non-Tchaikovsky performance—a concert conducted or produced by Tchaikovsky is not considered the first "publication"—of this score (hence establishing its "publication")?
Re-added: turns out this was performed in the United States before Russia, performed by Bulow and conducted by Johnson Lang! Jappalang (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Tchaik3.jpg: this was taken in 1892,[1] which means that a 30-year-old photographer at that time could still be a doddering (but alive) 80-year-old in 1942. Where is the proof that he or she had died 100 years before? Since this is a private photo, the best bet is to prove that it was published before 1923, or in a foreign (to US) publication during 1927–77 that had not complete copyright formalities with the US.
  • File:Tchaikovsky with wife Antonina Miliukova.jpg: same as above. Private photo taken on 24 July 1877.[2] Who said the photographer has died 70 years ago?
This may be stretching things a bit, but going by your thread of logic above, if the photographer were 30 years old in 1878, he would have been a possibly doddering but alive 80-year-old in 1928. Provided he lived through the immediate Russian Civil War era and the early Stalinist purges, he would have been 90 in 1938. That still leaves 70 years for him to have been dead to reach 2008. Jonyungk (talk) 07:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, wouldn't the same rationale apply to the photographers of File:Tchaik3.jpg and File:Tchai Cambridge.jpg? Even if they were octogenarians in 1943, that still leaves almost 70 years for them to be dead. Just a thought. Jonyungk (talk) 22:59, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Tchai Cambridge.jpg: Taken in 1893, in which pre-1923 publication was this printed? A site points out that this picture is found in Warrack's Tchaikovsky (1973);[3] since this book is referenced in this article, does it state the photographer? Very likely, this is a UK copyright (what with Cambridge and such),[4] and UK-PD is mainly focused on the 70-year since author death. Furthermore, since this is an illustrated biography (some of which are in colour), could it not be used to help fill out the information for other photos?
The pre-1923 publication would have been any newspsper or other publication that might have covred the event, either at the time or later, and possibly printed the photo to accompany the story. At least that was my assumption at the time the image was found. Jonyungk (talk) 15:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They might not have printed such a photo as well. For all we know, this could be a private photo taken by a student during the ceremony that only got published several decades after the event. As much as I have searched through Google, none of the pre-1973 books have printed this picture, even though they have mentioned Tchaikovsky's degree at Cambridge (and there may be good reason why). As said, Warrack's book (referenced for this article) should be consulted for any information (if it has any) on the images that are in this article. Jappalang (talk) 15:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This image has been replaced per your suggestion. Jonyungk (talk) 15:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Nadezhda von Meck.jpeg: is this scanned from Evelyn[5] or Alexander[6] Waugh's book? When was this taken? Photographersdirect.com claims the colourised version is "based in the UK".[7] Does this mean the original is taken by a UK citizen and should be treated per British laws—70 years pma; hence, the photographer's death date again comes into play.
The source listed is La musique comme vous ne l'avez jamais écoutée - Editions Gründ - p67 Jonyungk (talk) 15:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the links provided. Both Alexander's and Evelyn's books are titled that; which book is it, or are they the same? Jappalang (talk) 15:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Editions Gründ is apparently Evelyn, going by your links. The photo has been removed, in any case. Jonyungk (talk) 21:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tagged with {{nsd}}, and User:Hapless Hero notified. The danger comes if this was scanned from a recent publication. Even though the score might be public domain, the layout might not be. Jappalang (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tagged with {{nsd}}, and User:Queenofthewilis notified. Jappalang (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Readded: it is a publicity shot (from the pose), so it would have been published just after it was taken. What was needed was the source of the photo, and to confirm it is the original cast. The details (and publishing) in the Warrack should be enough. Jappalang (talk) 00:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia Commons. Jonyungk (talk) 15:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
By source, we mean where did the uploader obtain the image from. Any form of Wikipedia (in all its language versions and mirrors) and Commons is not applicable as a source. Jappalang (talk) 15:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tagged with {{nsd}}, and User:Queenofthewilis notified. Jappalang (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:SB film03.JPG: what is the point of this screenshot in an article about a music composer? Where is the critical commentary for this in this article? Where is the FUR?
It is a screenshot of a ballet which Tchaikovsky wrote and his impact on ballet is mentioned in the section where the screenshot appears. Jonyungk (talk) 15:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is decorative in the form of "this is a scene from the The Sleeping Beauty", and is not a good rationale for fair-use. Non-free images claimed for fair-use are to help readers further understand a significant idea written in the article, i.e. text cannot fully express what is described and requires illustration, e.g. art styles, subjective opinions, concepts, etc. Jappalang (talk) 15:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let go: unless the article talks about how this scene illustrates Tchaikovsky's score for the ballet and such (which I truly fail to see how at the moment), it is not fair use. Jappalang (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 05:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the images were taken either from related articles on Wikipedia or from Wikimedia Commons, so PD was assumed. I confess my ignorance about these details. Should I withdraw my nomination of this article? This question is not asked in a fit of pique, but I am honestly blindsided when it comes to these questions. Jonyungk (talk) 15:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the concerns over the images can be resolved through investigation. As pointed out, books are one way to go. When investigation is exhausted, images that lack information to verify their status should, at the least, be removed from the article. Jappalang (talk) 15:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images questioned above have been removed. Jonyungk (talk) 20:57, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is drastic. Some images could have been "saved"; I am continuing this ("rescue" attempt—finding out if they are definite public domain image and such) on the talk page if anyone is interested. Do you not have the Warrack book? Jappalang (talk) 00:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would greatly appreciate your continued efforts and would be open to re-adding whatever photos are definitely in public domain. I do not have Warrack available to me currently but know where I can find it and will search it out. Jonyungk (talk) 00:18, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is what I found in Warrrack:
File:Tchaik3.jpg (Tchaikovsky with Bob Davydov): Novosti Press Agency, from the Tchaikovsky House-Museum at Klin. It is also shown at this page on tchaikovsky-research.net.
File:Tchaikovsky with wife Antonina Miliukova.jpg: Collection of John Warrack. It is also shown at this page on tchaikovsky-research.net.
File:Nadezhda von Meck.jpeg: Novosti Press Agency, from the Tchaikovsky House-Museum at Klin. It is listed in RIA Nostrovi archives as [8]
File:Tchai Cambridge.jpg: Novosti Press Agency, archives. It is listed in its archives at [9]
File:Sleeping beauty cast.jpg: Novosti Press Agency. Warrack claims on p. 224 of Tchaikovsky that this is a picture of the principals from the first production of The Sleeping Beauty.
Novosti Press Agency is listed on Gooogle and Wikipedia as RIA Novosti at this link. There is no indication as to whether any of these photos are in public domain. Jonyungk (talk) 18:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is some good news, especially since I think the copyright of Warrack's book has not been renewed (the Copyright Office website, however, is fritzing on me, so I cannot confirm this yet). Can you provide the page numbers for each of the photo above? As for the cast photo, was it published in Warrack's book, or was it just mentioned that "there is a photo of the principal cast"? Jappalang (talk) 01:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Damn, just noticed that his book was published in both New York and London (1973),[10] which means that if copyright notice was provided, the contents (photos included?) would be copyrighted 95 years from that first publishing.[11] Jappalang (talk) 02:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The copyright page reads, "Copyright under the Berne Convention." The US did not join the Berne Convention until 1988. Jonyungk (talk) 06:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The FAC is over, so I will transfer this to the article's talk page. Jappalang (talk) 05:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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