Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/World War II

World War II

Previous review here.

The article has just undergone a huge reworking (thanks primarily to Oberiko). We'd like to see what everyone thinks of the new version, what improvements should be made, etc. Thanks for all input. Parsecboy (talk) 22:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Carom

A preliminary question: there are many sections with no inline citations whatsoever. Why is this the case? I'm assuming it's not simply an oversight, and I'm curious as to the rationale. Carom (talk) 22:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe the issue there (and I could be wrong), is that the current version was created on a temp page, and when it was substituted, the references in the previous versions were lost. The task of working through the old version and transplanting the references into the current version still lies ahead of us. Parsecboy (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Some other thoughts, then:

• The "see also" section should be removed. Links here should be incorporated into the larger body of the article.

• The "bombings" and "war trials" sections might warrant a little bit of expansion.

• There should be a link to World War II material on Wikimedia Commons.

• The prose is generally good, but could use a thorough copyedit.

Other than the lack of citation, I have no major complaints at this point. This is an excellent job so far; everyone involved is to be commended. Carom (talk) 01:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The citation issue is my doing. As I was writing, I really didn't see any facts that needed to be cited, considering that it's mostly a collection of links. If you see any disputable facts, let me know and I'll add a source. Oberiko (talk) 03:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I've always interpreted the citation guideline a little more strictly than that. It's not really just a collection of links; it still provides a narrative of the war. It seems to me that it should really be cited like any other article with regards to consistency and density. I also imagine that this might become a fairly large stumbling block if you intend to run this up to FA. Carom (talk) 03:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't be a problem to add them if required then, the page is (by necessity) such a generic overview that finding hard-copy confirmation shouldn't be an issue. Oberiko (talk) 12:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

EnigmaMcmxc

Am curious about the caption under the image in the info box. I know it doesnt mean to, but to me that key code is implying that all countires in light green joined because of the Japanese attack on the USA.

(on a slightly related note, wasn't Persia carved up between the Soviets and British before the American entry into the war?)--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we are working on the map issue at the moment. Another installment of the infobox montage discussion (which would replace the map) has been started here, all input there would of course be welcome. At the moment, Oberiko is working on a new version of an animated map that will address the concerns expressed here and elsewhere. Parsecboy (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Cool, i look forward to seeing it--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link to the new montage: Image:WW2Montage.PNG. Take a look and see what you think. Parsecboy (talk) 15:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

TomStar81

I have to agree with Carom on the citation issue, I would like to see at least one citation perparagraph for the article because at the moment much of it is to me uncited. I will grant that this is largely a narrative history on the war, but the same could be said of the Iowa class battleships and those articles all have citations on a per paragraph basis. I will take a closer look at the article when I have the chance to (at the moment I have a book report to work on thats due Thursday) and will have further comments then. TomStar81 (Talk) 04:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Nick Dowling

This article is vastly improved and I'd congratulate everyone involved. The process in which the improvements were made (by proposing text on the talk page before adding it) is an excellent example of a consensus approach to editing and is a model for other difficult to manage articles. My comments are:

• I agree with the need for citations as the article does make some assertions and they act to deter vandals. Using brief histories of the war should make this managable (I recomend John Keegan's excellent book).
• The article's prose is rather breathless and hard to read at times. I'm not sure what can be done about this, but the article could be longer.
• The common use of 'British' and 'United Kingdom' when describing actions of Commonwealth forces is inappropriate and inaccurate. For instance, Australian, and not 'British', troops made but the majority of the force which invaded Syria in 1941. Use either 'Commonwealth' or 'Allied'.
• I'm suprised to see that China didn't declare war on Japan until after Pearl Harbour (4th para in the 'The war becomes global' section).
• The article doesn't always describe the impact of the events it described. For instance, there's no mention that the Soviet offensive at the Battle of Moscow inflicted devastating losses on the German Army and that this was a key turning point in the war. --Nick Dowling (talk) 10:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Your fourth bullet is correct; neither side formally declared war in the SSJW until after the US was attacked, because neither side wanted to alienate the US (which was trading with both China and Japan), which had been pushing for peace at the time. Parsecboy (talk) 14:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The Commonwealth issue I'll try to get taken care of today. I'd rather not have any analysis of battles/events here, a large number of them (Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, France (1940), El Alamein, Overlord, Bulge, Coral Sea, Midway, Guadalcanal, Okinawa etc.) can be described as pivotal; I'd rather leave explaining their significance to the daughter articles which cover the major theatres. Oberiko (talk) 16:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Mrg3105

Despite the amount of editing done, and the significant improvement achieved, there is an entire concept, and at least a large section simply missing from the article!

• For Germany SWW was predicated on the economic fallout of the previous war, and the Nazi rhetoric. What followed was a territorial expansion by any means, with the goal being an expansion of German economic power. Germany lost the economic war a few months after the commencement of Operation Barbarossa. Ultimately combined Allied economies secured victory on the battlefields. None of this s evident from the article. The economic dimension needs its own section at last, which will hopefully mention the role of women in wartime economies, and the effect this had on the post-war societies of the World.

• If the economic issue was implicit in the Nazi Germany policy, then in Imperial Japanese policy this was an explicit cause for expansion of the Japanese Empire and its Economic Sphere. Where is this in the article?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 03:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

We don't have it yet. If you check World War II/temp, you can see that we have a blank section called "Home front". This is where production figures and such will be located.

I don't really want to get to in-depth to the reasons for German or Soviet actions. I briefly mention Japan's motive (to create a defensive perimeter while exploiting the resources of SE Asia), and Italy's motives (to create a new Roman Empire) but Hitler's motives were at least as much about ethnic eradication and world domination (indeed, he was making plans for the eventual war against the United States after conquering Europe) as they were about economic gain. I feel that the European Theatre of World War II would be a better place to talk more about it. If you can summarize it briefly though (a sentance or two), then by all means give it a shot. Oberiko (talk) 12:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I kept looking in temp to see what's new. Sadly I can not devote time to this. This is a huge subject which comes trough in other articles where production and logistics are concerned, so of course the Eastern Front. It needs a category revamp, and not just a section here. The reason I'm concerned is because the Soviet wartime economy in Wikipedia is covered by two short paragraphs!--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The wartime economy and production for each of the major belligerents (U.S., U.K., U.S.S.R., China, Japan, Germany, Italy and France) each merit full articles. The most one could do in the WWII article itself is give a very brief comparison. Oberiko (talk) 02:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)