Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Revolt of the Admirals
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 16:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list
Revolt of the Admirals[edit]
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
Revolt of the Admirals (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
| Toolbox |
|---|
I am nominating this article for A-Class more for completeness than anything else. I came to it from the War Plans article, which in turn I came to from the Strategic Air Command in the UK article. It was almost unreferenced at the time, necessitating a complete overhaul. There is little chance of it reaching FAC. The Admiral's Revolt is a case study of a dysfunctional political-military system, and raises issues of civilian control of the military and inter-service rivalry. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- Image review—pass
No issues, images are freely licensed (t · c) buidhe 11:09, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
Comments Support from Indy beetle[edit]
- The cancellation of the aircraft carrier USS United States and accusations of impropriety led to an investigation Impropriety in what?
Added "by Johnson in regard to the purchase of theConvair B-36 Peacemaker bomber" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- but the wartime presidential authority to reorganize the armed forces was due to expire six months after the end of the war Is there an article that we could wikilink to explaining this wartime prerogative of the president?
- The War Powers Act of 1941. Linked. Article isn't very good though. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Richardson dissented, favoring the status quo over a new department, but accepted the proposal to perpetuate the wartime Joint Chiefs of Staff and its various advisory committees by statute. So essentially he compromised; favoring a law permanently authorizing the continuance of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in spite of his reservations about a new defence department? Some clarification that the joint chiefs was initially an ad hoc body created during the war would be nice.
- it was no match for Soviet jet fighters "No match for" is somewhat euphemistic, perhaps "highly vulnerable to" or similar?
- The B-29 was therefore the mainstay of the bomber fleet in 1948 "Therefore" would suggest the B-29's status as the mainstay is a logical conclusion of the previously presented facts. In the fact the whole previous paragraph described how this was highly deficient. Perhaps delete that word?
- The aircraft pushed the state of the art at the time Euphemistic.
- Suggestions?
- How about, "The aircraft promised to be a major technological achievement"?
- Linked state of the art. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
- How about, "The aircraft promised to be a major technological achievement"?
- Suggestions?
- It was not canceled however, and when it looked like bases in China — the only ones in Allied hands at the time within B-29 range of Japan — might be overrun, an order was placed for 100 B-36s. As we're not doing this entirely chronologically, it might be helpful to clarify about when during WWII the Americans were worried about losing their bases in China.
- While naval aviators, like submariners, increasingly became a breed apart, and some became zealous advocates of naval air power, they expressed no desire to separate from the Navy. I think "breed apart" means to suggest naval aviators were culturally distinct, but this is a euphemism employing a biological classification. Quotemarks (if this is the word the source used) or revision would be preferable.
- In December 1947, Gallery wrote a top-secret memorandum on the subject that was leaked Was the leaking deliberate?
- Forrestal did not support Truman's 1948 Presidential campaign; instead, he met with Truman's opponent, Thomas E. Dewey, with whom he discussed the possibility of remaining in cabinet in a Republican administration. Truman won the election, and on 2 March 1949, he announced that Forrestal was being replaced Was Truman aware of Forrestal's entreaties to Dewey?
- on the part of B-36 contractors regarding: costs, capabilities and test results. Improper use of colon.
- In the Congressional Hearings section, the text jumps right into the investigation. Some background on who called for an investigation and why would be nice.
- which would have included the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, and he expressed support for Crommelin's views. Just to be certain, does Barlow's book actually make the explicit clarification that Bogan's emphatic letter would have implied that the Navy's morale was worse than in the attack on Pearl Harbor?
- The whole episode became known as the "Revolt of the Admirals". This is sourced to a 1949 Time article with the quote as the title. Can you affirm that the article explains people were calling it the "Revolt of the Admirals", and that this is not just a primary source use of Time's headline? If it is, a more up-to-date scholarly source explaining the coining of the phrase would be preferred.
- Aside from public condemnation, did Secretary Matthews ever face any consequences for his retribution against the naval officers in apparent violation of the law?
- The Navy named entire classes of ship after Leahy, Forrestal, Nimitz, Sherman and Burke, and even Truman and Crommelin had ships named after them, but no Navy vessel was ever named after Denfeld. This is sourced to a directory of ship names. Drawing attention to this fact is essentially an OR violation without a secondary source pointing out the curious absence of Denfeld's name on a ship relative to the commemoration of the other figures.
-Indy beetle (talk) 20:00, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm satisfied with above responses, this article is ready for A class by my book. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
Comments Support from Hog Farm[edit]
I'll take a look over the next couple days. Hog Farm Bacon 02:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Background
- " which were ad hoc wartime creations . Senior US Navy" - Remove the extra space before the period
- "although none of the services was completely happy with it" - Should this be were, not was?
- "at one blow , so that recuperation" - Extra space before the comma isn't in the source
- "In December 1947, Gallery wrote a top-secret memorandum on the subject [50] The idea was that instead" - Missing a period
- "The memo was leaked to a syndicated newspaper columnist, Drew Pearson, who published it in The Philadelphia Inquirer and the Philadelphia Bulletin. Denfeld gave Gallery a private reprimand for making "an extensive and somewhat uncontrolled distribution of a classified document."" - This implies that Gallery linked the memo, but it should be stated directly if true
- "On 7 March 1949, Hayward flew a simulated atomic bombing mission against California in a P2V launched from the carrier USS Coral Sea off the East Coast" - Assuming he landed on land and was not "expended" here? If so, not really necessary to state, I don't think, but worth checking up on.
- "and some officers also held a moral objection to relying upon the widespread use of nuclear weapons to destroy the major population centers.[41] Most felt that atomic bombs were best used against targets like submarine pens and logistical hubs rather than cities and industrial facilities" - This just Navy officers, or officers from other branches, as well?
- Cancellation of the USS United States
- "The plan was that the Navy's aircraft carriers would operate in four carrier strike groups, each with a 6A, a Midway-class and two Essex-class aircraft carriers (since there were only three Midways, one group would have a third Essex in lieu)" - Previously, you stated that only eight Essex-class carriers were kept up, but now you've got nine Essexes. I feel like something should be thrown in to clarify this.
- "A $189 million line item" - Is this per ship, or for all four?
- "and the Joint Chiefs on the advisability of continuing the construction of the United States; Bradley and Vandenberg urged its cancellation" - Why did Bradley change his mind about the carrier?
- Did the naval brass protest Matthews' appointment?
- "Johnson sought the opinions of General of the Army Dwight Eisenhower, the three service secretaries and the Joint Chiefs on the advisability of continuing the construction of the United States; Bradley and Vandenberg urged its cancellation" - What did Eisenhower think about cancelling the project? Later, you say that he provided a key vote in cancelling it, so it seems like it should be mentioned up here.
- Eisenhower’s views are subject to debate among the historians. Rearden (p. 412) says "Eisenhower, too, recommended canceling the project" but Barlow (pp 341–342, n134) says that Eisenhower's note to Johnson does not support this. Removed phrase saying Eisenhower supported cancelation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:28, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Into the outcome section, pausing here. Will continue later. Hog Farm Bacon 14:57, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Actually fine with the rest of the article, so that's it. Hog Farm Bacon 15:20, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Source review - pass[edit]
Claiming, hope to get to tomorrow. Hog Farm Bacon 06:46, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- Ref 15 (NHHC Denfield bio) has a published date at the bottom that should be used for the date on the reference
- The publisher for the Hansen book only seems to have published only that one book, but Hansen seems to be a subject-matter expert and the book appears to be widely cited in RS, so it meets WP:SPS
- Need a location for Hayword & Borklund
- Be consistent with "U. S. Naval Institute Press" vs "Naval Institute Press"
- It's unclear what the number 1679163694 in the Rosenberg, Kennedy & Floyd ref is suppose to indicate. Is that source a chapter within "History of the Strategic Arms Competition 1945-1972"? If so, that book seems to have been published in 1981 by a government-affiliated publisher. I'm not finding much about Lelujan & Associates
- Worldcat says Whynot has an OCLC
- Ditto with Steele
- Wolk 1988 you give a page number, but the version you link to doesn't have page numbers, so I'm not sure how helpful the page number is. I guess you used a copy in the original journal format, and the link is just the article as a web page?
Spot checks to come later. Hog Farm Bacon 02:34, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
See User:Hog Farm/spot checks. There's a handful of smaller issues, particularly in the wording of that Smith block quote. I'd recommend going through this with a fine-toothed comb before a potential FAC nom (if this is going there after all). There also appears to be an instance of a math error in adding figures from a source. Hog Farm Bacon 03:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Comments from Eddie891[edit]
- intend to get through this within the week. Eddie891 Talk Work 03:21, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
- Is there a reason why William F. Tompkins is not red/blue-linked?
- Because there is already an article about a William F. Tompkins who is a different person. After a bit of a search, I found enough material to create an article on him, and his existing red link. So now red linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:21, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- "In response, the Joint Chiefs of Staff decided that it would need to prepare a submission" maybe briefly gloss what the JCS is so the reader can know why they would 'need' to submit something
- The paragraph beginning "During World War II, the United States Army Air Forces" is a bit confusing at least to me: suggest perhaps splitting the sentence at " but the wartime presidential authority " (and removing 'but'). Why would the expiration lead to congress considering legislation? I don't see the connection.
- " with three equal services through the creation of an independent air force" Are you trying to say that the proposed air force would be equal to the Navy and Army here? I'm a but unsure
- Maybe put a sentence explicitly explaining the status quo of the Army and Air Force at the time?
- There is one: During the war United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) had achieved a degree of de facto independence from the United States Army
- standardize between US and U.S.
- "regarded the majority's recommendations as radical." I'm not sure it's clear who the majority is at this point in time...
- why doesn't "Lauris Norstad" get a job title?
- "considered a hard liner in his opposition to unification even within the Navy," I think this is just me, but what does 'unification' refer to, specifically?
- I don't think we generally capitalize Gross Domestic Product, compare our article on the topic.
- "Defense budgets declined from $81billion to $9billion" from when to when?
- "It was not considered at all likely " how about "it was considered unlikely"
- "and took unacceptably high losses" unacceptable to who? I'd imagine the opposing forces considered them very acceptable.
- "But up to 20 percent of the target cities " what does target cities refer to?
- The source refers to discussions in 1947-48, so it refers to Halfmoon, but the source isn't explicit. Linked to the article on United States war plans (1945–1950). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:21, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why is so much background on the development of the B-36 useful? Couldn't you just say "The B-36 had been developed during World War II."
- "The 80th Congress adjourned " suggest adding what year it adjourned
- In August 1948. See Turnip Day Session Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:21, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- some more to come. As always, suggestions not orders. Eddie891 Talk Work 19:32, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Don't forget about this, Eddie891.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Suggest expanding "USO" to "United Service Organizations" on first mention, given the article title.
- "The included the publication by a United Press reporter," missing letter(s)?
- "With the influential chairman unwilling to act, " which chairman?
- "The House adopted the resolution" which one?
- " The administration did not decide between guns and butter; it found that it could afford both" I think this could be rephrased that because you have to be familiar with the guns and butter model to get what is being said here, which I don't think the general public necessarily is. Could you rephrase it to be generally understandable without the need for such background knowledge?
- Rephrased to "military and civilian spending".
- " grew from 48 wings to 87." I don't think it's necessarily clear what 'wings' refers to here.
- That's it from me, nicely done as always Eddie891 Talk Work 13:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Support. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.