Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/John Kourkouas/archive1

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Not promoted - no consensus for promotion after being open for 28+ days -MBK₀₀₄ 02:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

John Kourkouas

Nominator(s): Constantine ✍

I am nominating this article on one of Byzantium's greatest generals for A-Class review because I feel its is complete and fulfills the relevant criteria. I eventually intend to give it a shot for FA, so the more thorough the review, the better. Thanks in advance to everyone for their time. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 21:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

• Prose review This is generally good, but would benefit from a general copyedit. To give a few examples from the lead:
  • "also found as..." I understand what you're saying, but perhaps something like "also spelt Kurkuas or Curcuas"? The variation isn't mentioned again, so it might be worth sourcing the various spellings to justify using one in preference to the others (maybe in a footnote?) It would be interesting, for example, to know which is the latinised version etc.
  • "several notable generals for Byzantium" How about "several notable Byzantine generals"?
  • Repetition: "one of the imperial bodyguard"; "one of the chief supporters"
  • "facilitating his rise to the throne" The sentence structure is ambiguous; it could be read as referring to either Kourkouas or Romanos I Lekapenos.
  • Related to the previous point, heavy use of "he" throughout the lead, but especially para 2, can be confusing. You need to be clear who you're referring to when more than one person is mentioned.
  • "For the first time since the tide of the Muslim conquests ebbed off, the Byzantines advanced in depth into Muslim territory and expanded the imperial border." How about something like "Having been much reduced by the Muslim conquests of several centuries earlier, by the 920s Byzantium had grown strong enough for Romanos Lekapenos to take an expansionist view of his eastern borders."? I think you also need to mention in the next sentence that Kourkouas led the armies that made those conquests.

There are similar instances elsewhere in the article - nothing an independent copyedit can't solve :) It's a fascinating article - well done, and thank you for submitting it for review. EyeSerene^talk 09:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Much appreciated. I alrwady went through and made some copyedits, but I'll ask for a more thorough review. Constantine ✍ 08:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. I've made some changes to the prose, but it could use looking-over by someone better at it than I. One thing I am concerned about is that it tends to read more like a chronology of Byzantine military history in that time period and theater than as a biography of him personally, but I suppose, given the age of the subject, we should consider ourselves lucky that more hasn't been lost in the last millennium. – Joe N 00:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Unfortunately, it is as you say. If we were to report the bare and essential facts about Kourkouas, the article would be a dictionary entry the size of the lead. Since his name however is inextricably linked with his 20-odd years of campaigns in the East, it seems only right to include them here. Constantine ✍ 08:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments First, fascinating article, and nicely done. It's a real problem to construct articles pre-1400 or so because of the paucity of material. You've done a nice job pulling this together. That said, there are many prose issues here. Just in the first section alone (early life and the first submission) I've identified confusing or awkward sentences/paragraphs. In some cases, the importance is "lost in translation" but in most of these cases, you've used very complicated verb constructions because you've placed your subject in the position of the object (direct or indirect) (and reverse), which requires you to construct convoluted verb strings. Try simplifying this throughout. I've offered some possibilities below: see what you think, and then carry on with the rest of the article. You've got the same problems throughout. Modifying these will strengthen the readability of your prose. Also, I made a minor tweak in the first paragraph.

Prose

• clarity. "Little is known about John's early life. At some point during Empress Zoe Karbonopsina's regency for her infant son Constantine VII {years}, he was appointed as droungarios of the Vigla regiment. From this post, he assisted Ramanos Lekapenos consolidation of his position are regent over Constantine VII, and later Lekapenos' ascent to the post of senior emperor in 919–920. As a reward, in ca. 923, Lekapenos promoted John Kourkouas to the supreme post of domestikos of the Scholai of the East, in effect commander-in-chief of the imperial armies in the East. According to the chronicler (?) Theophanes Continuatus, he held this post continuously 22 years and seven months." (How remarkable was this?)

• Confusing. His brother, Theophilos Kourkouas replaced Boelas as strategos of Chaldia and, as a competent soldier in command of this northernmost sector of the eastern frontier, he gave valuable assistance to his brother's campaigns.

• Awkward. In the East, For several centuries following the Muslim conquests in (when), constant raids and counter-raids characterized the Byzantine–Arab conflict in the East. These occurred along a relatively static border roughly defined by the line of the Taurus and Anti-Taurus Mountains. Until the 860s, the Byzantines had generally been on the defensive against superior Muslim armies. Only after from their victory in the battle of Lalakaon in 863 onwards had the Byzantines been able to gradually taken the initiative (and gain some ground. did they literally gain ground? as in territory?) In this they also took advantage of The strength of the Abbasid Caliphate, under Al-Muqtadir (r. 908–932) progressively decayed; local dynasties emerged in the distant provinces, such as Iberia, which weakened the centralized grip of the empire. The peace concluded in 927 with Bulgaria after the death of the Bulgarian Tsar Simeon further strengthened the Byzantine position in the East, allowing the Empire's attention and resources to be shifted eastwards.

from the Greek...

• we need English equivalents of the Greek, or at least some kind of short explanation. If you look at the German articles, the ranks, etc., appear in English, with the German equivalents in parens, of they appear with the German link, but piped to English. I have to think there are more English speakers who also speak German than English speakers who also speak Greek, not to mention Ancient Greek. If there is no contemporary or direct translation, than an interpretation of what the position is will help. Certainly, we all understand the idea of a regency, and certainly it wasn't called regency in Greek. It sounds like a domestikos functioned somewhat like a commander in chief of a noble family's force. A droungarios was more or less a divisional-level command? These need better explanations, otherwise it makes no sense.

Do these comments make sense to you? Can you see what could be done? Let me know. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes indeed, the comments are very useful. Thanks a lot. Give me a couple of days to go through the article, and hopefully the editors I have contacted for a copyedit will also get involved in time. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 22:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment

MUCH better. :) still needs some attention at the following kinds of examples: Clarify pronouns--for example:

• From this post he played a role, first in the consolidation of Romanos Lekapenos' position as regent over Constantine VII, and eventually his ascent to the post of senior emperor in 919–920. Whose ascent to the post of senior emperor? Romanos Lekapenos? or Constantine VII?

Translations of Greek--for example:

• His brother, Theophilos Kourkouas, replaced Boelas as strategos of Chaldia and in charge of this northernmost sector of the eastern frontier. His brother, Theophilos Kourkouas, replaced Boelas as army leader, or strategos, of Chaldia and in charge of this northernmost sector of the eastern frontier.

Unclear meanings--for example:

• At the same time, the Abbasid Caliphate progressively decayed... The Caliphate decayed? Or its power? At the same time (or concurrently), the authority of the Abbasid Caliphate decayed (diminished). At the same time, the Abbasid Caliphate undermined its own authority by....; at the same time, corruption and vice undermined the military and cultural authority of the Abbasid Caliphate ...
• under Al-Muqtadir (r. 908–932) the Caliphate was in disarray, facing revolts and a weakening of its hold on the more distant provinces, where local dynasties emerged.]  ?? Finally, under Al Mutqtadir (r. 908-932) the Caliphate lost its hold on such distant provinces as ...(examples?) As the Abbasid Caliphate's central hold on Byzantium declined, ...

I made a few minor tweaks. this is looking much better. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:13, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, suggestions taken care of, see article talk page. Constantine ✍ 22:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

okay, I did look at the article...These were examples of problems, but not the only problems. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:49, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I realise that :) I'll go through it again later today... Constantine ✍ 00:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Constantine, I went through again, and did a copy edit. Please read it carefully to make sure I did not change facts (just presentation). I haven't read your sources, and I am completely unfamiliar with this period, so I tried only to clean up the prose, not to change any of the meaning. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I checked your edits, they are well done. Where the meaning got distorted I changed it myself. Thanks again for improving the prose! 11:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

maps There eventually could be a more specific use of maps. The present map shows some of the areas where the battles occurred, but it would be more helpful if these were actually marked and some of the extraneous cities erased. Also there are a lot of maps in commons on Byzantineempire, and perhaps it would be useful if one of these could be included to show generally what the empire included, and what K.'s expansionist policy actually meant. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:42, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comments - three dabs need attention, external links look good, only one image has alt text (not an A-class requirement though), and sources look mostly good (couple comments below).

• • • I have in mind to make a map, but it is very difficult to find accurate information on the borders of the time, especially in the Caucasus. It will have to wait until I gather sufficient source material, and find the time to do it. Constantine ✍ 06:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

• • What is "E. Weber"?
  • Can we have locations for the books?
  • By using "Kazhdan (1991)," in the references, it makes it look like he is the author. Perhaps you could change it too "Kazhdan ed. (1991),"? (that's what I do, at least. Feel free to ignore this if you disagree though :) Cheers, —Ed (talk • contribs) 23:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• • • "E. Weber" is the publisher. I added location for him, the rest are university publications, so a locations is not really necessary. As for Kazhdan, the fact he is an editor is marked in the "sources" section, but he also is the author of the entries on the Kourkouas family and John Kourkouas himself. Constantine ✍ 06:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
      • Since this review is bound be closed any time soon, could any remaining issues be highlighted (with Auntieruth's help, I think the prose has been covered) and any votes for or against be cast? Constantine ✍ 11:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.