Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 February 1

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

February 1

Claudit semper fenestram antequam cenat

Does anyone know the where and when the oft-quoted multiple Romance language translations of the above Latin sentence, meaning "She always closes the window before dinner," appeared first? The German article has a notice that they are unsourced. 41.114.142.71 (talk) 00:23, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Google Translate omits the "she". Apparently it needs illa in front of it.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:25, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Latin is a pro-drop language. You wouldn't use illa unless it you wanted to emphasize that it was her specifically, or unless it were otherwise unclear whom you were talking about. --Trovatore (talk) 02:25, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

That would be the key question - the context. If all you have is Claudit semper fenestram antequam cenat, and no context, can you determine the gender of the subject? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Illa as a pronoun means "that one" with female grammatical gender. It's ea which is the closest Latin counterpart to "she" (though it would usually be omitted as verb subject, except to provide disambiguation, or to express slight emphasis). And no, the verbs claudit and cenat don't express gender of subject (verb forms inflected for person never do in older IE). By the way, the most basic simple declarative word order in Latin would not have claudit coming at the beginning... AnonMoos (talk) 10:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Given the low number of results for this on Google, and because ultimately they all seem to come back to our article, and because there are no results on Google Books or anywhere else, and because of the oddness of the word order as AnonMoos mentions, I'm wondering if it was invented by Wikipedians. You can see that the initial list was added here on December 29, 2007, by FilipeS (talk · contribs) who said he took it from the Portuguese language article, although the list of languages and translations has expanded since then. In the Portuguese language article, back in June 2007 this list of phrases only had Portuguese and closely related languages, then some anon added Latin (or something Latinish), which was changed to the current form not long after. So, looks like it was invented on Wikipedia and spread to the rest of the Internet. These days, if it's on Wikipedia we assume there must be a source, but this is from the wild old days where we could just add anything without a reference. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:58, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Just a couple of hours ago, I discovered a similar case of "citogenesis", outlined at Talk:Handball#Citogenesis. No such user (talk) 12:06, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The link to Google Books which I provided earlier has a quote from something called What the Nanny Saw. Unless you think that author copied it from Wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:56, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

That is 100% what happened, given the list of languages mentioned in the book, and the fact that it was published in 2011. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:13, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

It appears to have been added to the Wikipedia article in 2012 or later. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:39, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

If only someone would come along and post specific links showing when it was added to two different articles in 2007! Who will this hero be? Adam Bishop (talk) 02:28, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The Portuguese and Spanish examples were first added to the Portuguese language article (with cierra misspelled as cerra) on 7 June 2002 by PierreAbbat (talk · contribs). On 27 January 2006, Jorge Stolfi (talk · contribs) added the French and Italian examples, giving diner instead of dîner, with a comment "SOMEONE PLEASE CHECK" on the French. Galician, Catalan, and Romanian later were added over the course of that year, and Asturian, Occitan, and Latin were added in the next. 41.114.218.222 (talk) 04:00, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Excellent! Adam Bishop (talk) 13:48, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

• Ack! I have a book that lists about 20 romance reflexes of this sentence, but I can't remember which one! I will take a look when I have a chance, hope to answer by Friday if no one else comes up with it first. μηδείς (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

This may be in From Latin to Romance in Sound Changes, but I fear I have put that in storage. μηδείς (talk) 02:56, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

There is a searchable preview of that on Google Books (assuming you mean "From Latin to Romance in Sound Charts"), but this phrase does not seem to be there. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:41, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, @Adam Bishop:, I was just googling this and couldn't find it, and you have the correct title. I just put a bunch of books in storage in preparation for a move, if I come across the list elsewhere I'll give the reference. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Guitbass

Is Guitbass really a word? Is it in any way different from bass guitar? -- SGBailey (talk) 15:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

There are lots of hybrid instruments that have been made and named by specific people. The use of the word "guitbass", AFAICT, is unique to the person who designed it; it refers to a specific kind of string instrument inspired by and a hybrid of a standard electric bass guitar and a standard 6-string guitar. It looks to be hand built, and I don't see any in commercial production. There have been other such hybrids which have not been called "Guitbasses" (see for example Baritone guitar or Fender Bass VI). There are hybrid instruments with portmanteau names which HAVE become more wide-spread, like the banjolele and guitjo which are in mass production and can be commercially purchased. My father-in-law has a 1920s era Gibson Banjolin which is pretty sweet. --Jayron32 15:21, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I notice our banjolin article is lacking in sound samples. Maybe you or he could make us one? SemanticMantis (talk) 20:58, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Sadly, it isn't currently playable. It got cracked in a move, and when he took it to a local luthier (my father-in-law didn't know exactly what he had), the luthier said 1) it could be fixed and 2) he wouldn't touch it himself because his insurance wasn't good enough. Apparently the instrument was rare and expensive, and the luthier said that the only people who should fix it would be Gibson themselves. Barring a trip to Nashville, it'll be a conversation piece and little more for the foreseeable future. --Jayron32 00:06, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Jayron32: Well that's a shame! I can easily see how that could be worth many thousands of dollars, even broken, given the rarity and age. Oh well, looks as though at least it is being preserved in relatively good care :) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Why do Canadians sound like Americans?

I can't distinguish Canadian and American English as much as I can't distinguish Australian and British English. Those variants sound very similar. Are they really similar, or is it just me? 107.77.195.67 (talk) 15:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

All such accents tend to fall on a spectrum, so while there are distinct differences you may well get a Canadian and an American who sound very similar. In my experience, it is less offensive to call an American Canadian, than to call a Canadian American. Similarly there are many Australians with accents quite close to English - and others than a native English person would find difficult to understand at all. If English is not your native tongue, distinguishing accents will be more difficult. Wymspen (talk) 16:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Excellent point. Among linguistic taxonomists, Lumpers would tend to note that both are varieties of North American English and Splitters would tend to highlight the differences between them. Canadian English does share a lot of common pronunciations with certain varieties of American English, some with General American and some especially with North-Central American English and Inland Northern American English, which makes sense as those are from the parts of the U.S. that are closer to Canada. However, Canadian English does have it's own unique vowel system that does not appear in any other known dialect of English; this vowel is a clear marker of Canadian speakers (and frequently gets mispronounced by those who try to goof on Canadian English). Wikipedia has an article on Canadian raising, which covers it as well. Interestingly, that same Atlas Obscura article I cited above also notes the California vowel shift as happening in Canada, which is slowly changing Canadian English. --Jayron32 16:43, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

As for Canadians: That's because both Canadian phonology and American phonology share many similarities, of which the most noticeable one is probably the rhoticity. For more details, see our article: Canadian English#Phonology and phonetics.

As for your question about Australians and Brits: Yes, their accents are really very similar: not only because they both are non-rhotic, but also because of many other factors. For more details, see our article: Australian English phonology. HOTmag (talk) 16:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Similar to you, maybe, but British and Australians have no trouble sorting one out from the other. Bazza (talk) 17:06, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, I've literally never hear anyone say British and Australian sound the same. Australian is one of the most characteristic accents out there. Vastly different from British, and I'd say more different than say New England vs Texas. 131.251.254.154 (talk) 14:18, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but we Britons struggle to distinguish Australians from New Zealanders, much to their annoyance. Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

There are very distinctive shibboleths, with which you can easily spot New Zealanders. You do not need to wait for long till they say words with the KIT, DRESS and TRAP vowels, and when you hear KUT, DRISS, TREP you'd certainly know. Particularly their DRISS is very noticeable, there are very few if any accents with such a shift. As for Australians they greet each other with "Good die, mite!". In general to distinguish dialects one had better listen them on the first place. Knowing some theoretical nuances is one thing, but after having heard New Zealanders a couple of time I suppose I'd be able to recognize them. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:35, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Don't ask a New Zealander to say "deck" in polite company! Alansplodge (talk) 19:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Not to me. They are objectively similar, yet not identical. I too have no trouble sorting one out from the other: To my ears, the most noticeable difference, is in words like eight, cake, aid, et cetera. HOTmag (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The IP's close proximity to Detroit might have resulted in a blend of the two. But I recall being in Detroit some years ago and going across the river to Windsor, and the difference in the accents was quite noticeable, at least to my ears. There are many, many British accents, but I can usually tell an Aussie by the extreme vowel pronunciations, which are kind of like Cockney but not exactly. While watching an Aussie cricket match on TV recently, these differences were obvious. As an example, to my Midwest American ears, "lake" sounds like "like" and "like" sounds like "loik". The long e and long o also sound quite different than where I come from and how the average Brit says them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:06, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

People tend to hear differences better the closer they are to those differences. For example, as a native New Englander, I can easily distinguish not just that you are from New England, but which part, and often which specific city or area. I have on multiple occasions met a New Englander in another part of the U.S. and nailed the city they are from (I once met someone in Chicago, and could tell he was from Dracut, Massachusetts). OTOH, someone from the Southern U.S. may just be able to identify someone as just having a "Boston Accent" or even more generally "From the Northeast". --Jayron32 17:23, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

You are henceforth to be addressed as "Professor Higgins of the Reference Desk".  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:05, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The rain in Braintree falls mainly on the plaintree? --Jayron32 00:20, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Or perhaps planetree. Alansplodge (talk) 00:49, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

If Jayron ever decided to go on Jeopardy!, he could break the bank. He'd make Ken Jennings look like Mortimer Snerd. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:20, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I lived/worked in the US for 5-10 years, and only once did somebody spot me as being from the Great White North. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:56, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Living in Detroit, I sometimes hit Canadian radio stations when changing channels. I can be fooled by them until I hear an "oot", "zed", or they start talking "aboot" MPs (the military police ?). :-) StuRat (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

MP usually stands for member of parliament. --Theurgist (talk) 09:55, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The military police in Canada are abbreviated CFMP. Alansplodge (talk) 15:45, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

They are informally referred to as just MPs as well. Matt Deres (talk) 01:35, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• I'm US, but I worked in Canada for two years and 2 daughters went to McGill. Two dramatic differences: 1) Americans pronounce been as "ben" and Canadians pronounce it as "bean". 2) Canadians frequently add "eh?" (pronounced "A?") to the end of a sentence. Interesting, eh? -Arch dude (talk) 02:45, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• Here in Detroit, we pronounce "been" the same as "bin". StuRat (talk) 04:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• As emphasized in an early 2000s T-shirt about Osama bin Laden, with the caption "bin Hidin'". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:38, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure which I use. I grew up with the pin–pen merger inherited from my mother. I later eliminated it (non-prestige feature), but "been" is normally unstressed, so I don't think about the distinction much. Maybe I use a reduced /ᵻ/?

In any case, either /bɪn/ or /bɛn/ would strike me as unremarkable, but /bi:n/ would definitely sound "foreign" — could be Canadian; could be British. --Trovatore (talk) 07:43, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

What do you mean by: "eh? (pronounced A?)"? Is it pronounced like the vowel of "egg", or like that of "aid" (being a diphthong)? Or maybe you meant the vowel of "add"? HOTmag (talk) 07:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

How do you pronounce "A" by itself, as in A E I O U? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:51, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

He means /eɪ/. --Trovatore (talk) 08:48, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's how the Canadians (rather than the Brits) pronounce "eh". HOTmag (talk) 10:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I (a Brit) have always pronounced "eh?" as /eɪ/. (The pronunciation guide in Wiktionary looks wrong to me.) Bazza (talk) 11:30, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Are you asking me? I've only quoted Arch dude, and asked them about what they'd meant. HOTmag (talk) 10:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

"A" as in the vowel sound in "aide" or "played". Sorry, I'm not a linguist, so I would miss any subtle distinction here. Canadians very frequently add this word with a rising question-mark sound to the end of a sentence. It seems to mean something like "don't you agree?" "It's a bit warmer today, eh?"-Arch dude (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In the UK, "eh" is pronounced to rhyme with "hay", in fact it is a homophone to us Londoners who tend to H-drop. The well-worn Cockney response to someone saying "eh?" when they haven't heard what has been said is: "Yeah, 'ay is wot 'orses eat!". Alansplodge (talk) 17:44, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not in the habit of thinking of "eh" as "really a word", whatever that means exactly. I always thought it was just a transcription of a sort of vocalization, as much of a word as "mph". It would have been spelled "ay" except that's already reserved for /aɪ/. --Trovatore (talk) 06:19, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

To me, the Canadian "eh?" sounds like a long "get" vowel, not they "play" diphthong--their doesn't seem to be a yod offglide that you would here in standard American or RP. μηδείς (talk) 18:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Watch this piss-taking video and you'll get the idea (skip towards the end for the "eh"s). Alansplodge (talk) 18:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

 

By "long get vowel", do you mean as in the German word geht? To me geht sounds much more like English "gate" than like English "get", notwithstanding that the vowel is a monophthong. --Trovatore (talk) 06:43, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh really? Now I'm thinking about how the Brits - with their non-rhotic accent - pronounce "air", and I wonder if you really mean - that to you - "eh" sounds much more like the British "air" than like "hay" (while dropping the h). HOTmag (talk) 16:40, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

No, I didn't say that at all. I said that German geht sounds more like "gate" than "get". --Trovatore (talk) 09:13, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• Of course, if we were discussing this in Spanish, the answer would be, "because they are Americans". --Shirt58 (talk) 04:12, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, but we aren't. Canadians don't like to be called American. They don't mind being called North American; actually they use the phrase "North American" much more than Americans do. (It doesn't seem to include Mexicans, AFAICT, physical geography notwithstanding.) --Trovatore (talk) 07:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Just realized that could be misread. "We aren't" speaking Spanish. I am not Canadian. --Trovatore (talk) 16:55, 4 February 2017 (UTC)