Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 May 23

Language desk
< May 22	<< Apr | May | Jun >>	May 24 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 23

Why is Wikipedia not in italics?

I've just noticed that we write Encyclopædia Britannica in italics but Wikipedia without. Why so? doomgaze (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe because Wikipedia is a "project" (that's what the article says), rather than just an encyclopedia? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, according to MOS:ITALICS, Wikipedia should be in italics. Dismas|^(talk) 05:13, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

But that section of MOS:ITALICS mentions that the subject is under discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Internet Sites and WP:ITALICS, in fact fairly vigorous discussion that may lead to a Wikipedia:Request for Comment. I don't like italicizing web-sites that aren't functioning directly like newspapers (nytimes.com but The New York Times), although this seems to run against recommended practice. Boston.com and BBC.com just look weird to me, but one of our citation bots or templates has started doing this willy-nilly. Given how many times I've written Wikipedia in the last few years, it would seem strange to start italicizing it. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:19, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

{after edit conflict, i.e. simultaneously with, but in ignorance of, Dismas' answer above): These rough-hewn answers would never satisfy a good lawyer, a strict logician or a demanding language professor, but (1) Encyclopædia Britannica is a foreign-language phrase (although now it comes to mind, I'm not sure if it's Greek or Latin) while for better or worse, Wikipedia [not Wikipædia] is treated as English, even being translated into French as Wikipédie, (2) the Britannica is treated as a printed, published, presented or performed work, like The Times, The Messiah, Ragtime or Gone with the Wind, while from the reader's point of view, Wikipedia is at bottom a web site, very few of which are italicized/italicised, although Yahoo! and Bing! can get away with exclamation points. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Bing doesn't have an exclamation mark. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 07:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

How often is "Wikipedia" actually referred to within articles? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

In some articles, rather frequently. —Angr (talk) 08:14, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of "smell like soup"

Hello, previously I asked a question, but did not get any answer. If someone knows please answer. Thanks! --Goqer (talk) 04:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

You got several answers. Two independent quotes were traced for you, one to the movie Juno, and one to a George Carlin routine. I checked urban dictionary, and there are several hits for bad odors, either relating to normal body odor or to unpleasant genital odors. See [1] If those don't work, then try this on for size: It means there is an odor which reminds the person of soup.--Jayron32 04:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

You did indeed get answers. Was there something about the answers that I provided that you did not understand? I haven't listened to my George Carlin tapes in years but I may be able to track down the name of the specific routine that the soup reference comes from. Dismas|^(talk) 05:15, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

"Drunk as a fiddler's bitch"

hello learned people ! I heard Charlton Heston in Major Dundee utter that expression, & I wonder what it means, & where it comes from. Is it an actual dog, or the partner of a fiddler ? Thanks beforehand, t.y. Arapaima (talk) 09:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, it means 'very drunk.' According to the Wordsworth dictionary of proverbs, 2006 ed. the expression dates back to 1362, appearing in William Langland's Piers Plowman as "Thenne gon he go for to lyk a gleomonnes bicce, Sum tyme asyde and sum tyme arere." The dictionary also cites Forby's Vocabulary of East Anglia (1830), Northall's Folk Phrases (1894), and F.E. Taylor's Lancaster Sayings (1901), but doesn't give examples. I would say from the age of the expression, that bitch here refers to the fiddler's dog.

John Badcock's Slang: a dictionary of the turf, the ring, the chase, the pit, or bon-ton, and the varieties of life, forming the completest and most authentic lexicon balatronicum hitherto offered to the notice of the sporting world (1823) suggests "'as drunk as a fiddler's bitch' would imply that the patient has the buz [sic] of music in his ears, and will not sit quietly, but danceth about."

T. Hilding Svartengren, in Intensifying Similies in English (1918) mentions the expression, but doesn't comment on it. It does, however note drunk as a fiddler, and comments "the fiddler was of old a frequent guest in taverns and ale-houses, as appears in numerous passages in Elizabethan writers." Further, it points to a similar expression: drunk as a tinker's bitch, and comments "Like master, like man or dog." So if the fiddler is likely drunk, his dog likely is too. The dissertation also discusses the common rhythms of these types of expressions, noting "there are also not a few extended dactylic types...thin as a newsome snipe, thins as a barber's pole, as fat as a bacon hog, drunk as a fiddler's bitch..." Bitch at the end of the expression makes it adhere to this rhytmn.

Whoops, just found one more thing. Forby, in Vocabulary of East Anglia, defines bitch as "a trull; the female companion of a vagrant. Ray has a tinker's bitch. Our tinkers do not keep bitches, but trulls. The fiddling vagabond, with us, is the only one who has such an establishment, and we found upon in an extremely coarse and offensive comparison, 'as drunk as a fiddler's bitch." I can't get a stand-alone definition of trull in the excerpt of Forby I have access to, but OED defines it as "A low prostitute or concubine; a drab, strumpet, trollop." So not apparently the fiddler's dog, but his lady friend of ill repute, at least to some ears. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 15:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, "Fine man on the watch". I'll stay with Forby's ref. Have a good day among your books, we're glad to have "study rats'" (as we say in french) advices T.y. Arapaima (talk) 07:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

"Going stag"

Hi, what is the equivalent term for "going stag" but applied to a female? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.222.12 (talk) 11:25, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary says this phrase means "going somewhere solo". I rather suspect there is no exact equivalent term for a woman and that they would just say "going solo" or "going on my own". --Viennese Waltz 11:39, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Never heard this expression in my life so I assume it's native to some kind of regional slang I'm not familiar with.. but assuming it derives from stag party, how does "going hen" sound? - filelakeshoe 11:52, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

It's very common in American English, and this article uses "going stag" itself with reference to girls/women. —Angr (talk) 12:00, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I was just about to check answers to my question supra, & can't resist to "put in my salt grain" (as we say here) & give you the french meaning, which is quite obvious to those who have observed stags during the mating season : for us "going stag" means becoming sex obsessed to the point of roaming along alone, bellowing, becoming agressive & brushing on's head on the bushes. We have also "bander comme un cerf" (to be horny as a stag), pertinency of which can be easily verified by visiting any good Zoo. But we don't apply the expression to women...T.y. Arapaima (talk) 07:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

French and Italian legislation titles

I need to have the titles of French and Italian laws, mentioned in this article - Universal design#National_legislation, translated into English please. Roger (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

American vs. British English

How many people are native speakers/writers of American English vs. British English? Also how many foreign language speakers learn each style? I am assuming that most dialects of English can reasonably be aligned with one or the other, though admittedly some dialects (Australian?) might be best be regarded as neither. Dragons flight (talk) 16:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's really possible to measure - such detail isn't requested by the census form. The closest estimate I can think of would be population of the US vs. population of the UK and Ireland (unless you want to count "Irish English" as something separate). Then of course you have Canadian English, which is pretty much halfway between BrE and AmE. English spoken in other commonwealth countries tends to have more similar lexis to BrE but highly different pronunciation from either. As for Australian, that could easily be considered a separate standard, they have their own dictionaries and their own standard pronunciation system.

As for foreigners learning English, differences between AmE and BrE start appearing in textbooks at about Upper-Intermediate level, so people who study in English classes should be learning both. Obviously it depends on what they use English for, who they talk to, etc. People generally are more likely to be exposed to AmE because of Hollywood, music and popular culture in general. But if someone goes to live in the UK then they'd probably learn BrE.

Giving numbers on this is basically too difficult and slippery a task. People from Newcastle-upon-Tyne sound to me like they're talking AmE sometimes, for example, they use "pants" instead of "trousers". A friend of mine from high school went to live in Iowa for a year and came back with an American accent. I don't think everyone could say that they "speak" either variety 100%. - filelakeshoe 17:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

If that's too difficult, perhaps a more tractable question would be quantify how often British vs. American spellings are used in modern written English, e.g. -ise/-ize, -or/-our, etc. ? Dragons flight (talk) 17:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

But note that the -ize spellings are not only American. They're used in Canadian English and in the Oxford spelling of British English as well. —Angr (talk) 21:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The most obvious indicator has got to be color versus colour. Alansplodge (talk) 08:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

"Color" gets 2.12 billion (=thousand million) Google hits, and "colour" gets 422 million - so, about 5:1 for the US spelling. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm pleased that American editors seem to have finally stopped trying to "correct" the spelling of Endeavour, the space shuttle currently parked at the International Space Station. Yes, it's named after Captain Cook's ship. HiLo48 (talk) 09:26, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

{rant warning) But then, how many of your students would claim to have or be getting their driver's "license"? Spell checkers have made this pretty much the standard spelling in Australia now, even though the actual licences have the word "licence" on them. Not that any young person would ever notice the difference, because they're not taught to focus on or be aware of detail anymore. When I come to power, my first decree will be to ban all spell checkers. So far from improving anything, they have contributed majorly to an apocalyptic decline in standards. {end of rant) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 17:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I've just about given up worrying about the -ice/-ise suffix issue. Not worth the effort. HiLo48 (talk) 18:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I rest my case.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure we have a page on it somewhere. The number that sticks in my head is that upwards of 60% of native English speakers are from the United States. Of course "native English speaker from the US" is not exactly coextensive with "native speaker of American English", but should be close enough. --Trovatore (talk) 09:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Dragons Flight, have you seen the stats and pie chart at English language#Geographical distribution? —Angr (talk) 09:44, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many native speakers of English there are in India, and other countries such as Kenya. This may affect the results. 92.15.8.217 (talk) 14:04, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Due by - due when?

Looking at wiktionary:by "At some time before (the given time), or before the end of a given time interval." definition of by, I wonder if the phrase "assignment due by Monday", for example, should be understood as "the assignment is to be completed no later than Sunday midnight" or "the assignment is to be completed no later than Monday midnight"? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:25, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I would guess by monday midnight. "Due by" is imho not plain English, I would always change it to "due before" or "due on" in a proofreading to avoid confusion, but "due on" is how I understand it. If it were something really important I'd ask for clarification. - filelakeshoe 17:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Or just change it to due Monday.—msh210℠ 19:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

"Due by" or "due before" would suggest to me a deadline of no later than Sunday midnight; "due on" would be no later than Monday midnight. Lexicografía (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Reading it strictly, you would be right. Colloquially, "due by" in this context would indicate "due on". And if it's due at start of business or start of school on Monday, getting it done on the previous day would be a good idea. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:17, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Even "on" can be ambiguous. "I'm going on leave on Friday" - what exactly does that mean? Friday is my first day of leave, meaning my last day at work is Thursday? Or, I'm walking out of here at c.o.b. Friday and not coming back till my leave is finished? Without any other info, the latter would be a safer bet, but it could easily mean the former. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:23, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the "on" in these examples could insufficient. A time of day might be needed also. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:09, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't "due by" mean that it is due in, i.e. to be submitted by Monday? And given that schools have office hours, it would mean due to be completed and submitted by COB (or COS in this case) on Monday?

That's how it operated at university in my experience anyway. I guess in pre-tertiary education it's whenever your teacher feels like collecting it on that day. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

A school that issued such a deadline would have to be prepared for students to be submitting their work right up till cob Monday, even if that wasn't what they intended. It's a reasonable interpretation of the requirement as stated. If they actually meant the work has to be submitted by cob Friday (assuming it's closed on weekends), they need to go back to school and have their backsides kicked for mentioning Monday at all, which could only cause confusion. But then, schools have a habit of wording things from their own perspective, not the students' perspective. Such as "pupil-free days", which are pupil-free only from the administration's viewpoint; from the pupils' viewpoint they're "attendance-free" or simply "a day off". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 17:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Yang (surname) media source

Hi there,

I was wondering if someone could tell me the source of the Yang clan totem in the page? The name of the picture is Yeohbookb2.JPG‎. However, there is no source as to where it is from, except that it is posted up by contributor Ralphscheider42. I'm doing a bit of research on Chinese Surnames and would like to know the source. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_(surname)

Dysan123 (talk) 18:50, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

For similar questions, TinEye can be very helpful. Sadly, it does not help us much here [2]. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The uploader of this image appears to still be active on Wikipedia. Have you contacted him? rʨanaɢ (talk) 20:42, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't know which book that image is clipped from, except that it looks post 20th century (the whole concept of "totem" in a Chinese context is a very modern concept, especially considering that "tuteng" is a transliteration of "totem"). I very much suspect the whole image as uploaded on Wikipedia is a copyvio.

As to the actual origin of the image, a brief internet search finds a lot of queries about where these images come from, but there doesn't seem to be any real explanation. One thing I found was about the sutiability of these images as tattoo designs. I think it's quite possible that these are modern creations, by taking artistic licence with the character of the surname. As I understand it, only very few surnames actually come from pre-historic totems, Long (dragon), Bo (cypress tree; pronounced Bai in northern China), Feng (phoenix) are a few. However, the images of "totems" widely circulating online relate mostly to the most common modern surnames and very rarely to such ancient surnames, but by the time these surnames arose, e.g. many of them during the Zhou dynasty, Chinese society would have been long past the stage of totems. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

A further search turned up a set of stamps issued by China Post which featured such "totems", still nothing about the origins of these images though. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Found something in this news report [3], which discusses similar doubts to what I expressed above, and contains the following explanation: "那么这些图案终究能否是真的“姓氏图腾”呢？记者多方联络，终于找到了该画的作者中国美术家协会北京分会会员王大有，并就此成绩采访了相关专家" - "Then are these images really "family name totems"? After contacting various parties, the reporter found the authors of these images, Wang Dayou, who is a member of the Beijing branch of the China Artists Association, and interviewed the relevant experts on this achievement."

The story goes on to explain that Mr Yang used a combination of ancient scripts of the relevant characters corresponding to the suranems, supplemented by drawings based on the style of primitive rock art, to illustrate the origins and "cultural context" of each surname. He says that this is "purely artistic creation, and does not have any superstitious basis".

The reporter also interviewed another expert, Professor Wang Daliang, who said that these images should only be treated as artistic creations and the relationship between them and surnames should not be exaggerated. He goes on to explain that there are numerous origins for Chinese surnames, and only a very few are regarded as deriving from prehistoric totems. Many other families acquired their surnames from the names of their tribes or states, places of residence, occupations, titles, ancestral names, courtesy names or even nicknames, changing surnames to avoid persecution or by imperial decree, or adoption of Chinese names by non-Chinese speaking peoples. Derivation from totems is very limited, and in any case, no pre-historic totem images are documented in historical records.

Here is the artist Mr Wang Dayou's official website (or rather the Beijing Wang Dayou Information Consultancy Company Limited), http://www.wangdayou.com.cn/, which may be of interest. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

An earlier version of the image [4] has the note "Yang family talisman from the family genealogical register."--Cam (talk) 10:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Bow-wow in Canada and Australia

I've just received an e-mail from my sister asking me for help. But since I can't help her on my own, I'm asking you all. What is the equivalent of "bow-wow" (i.e. the representation of the sound a dog makes) in any Australian Aboriginal language (presumably for dingoes) and in any of the Inuit languages (e.g. for sled dogs)? I've looked at wikt:bow wow#Translations and at Bark (utterance)#Representation, and there are lots of languages there, but not for any of the languages my sister is looking for. Further down in the latter article, however, it says that dingoes don't bark in the same way as more familiar dogs, and that the Hare Indian Dog of northern Canada didn't bark at all, so maybe the languages she's interested in don't even have words corresponding to "bow-wow". I know it's a bit of a long shot, but does anyone happen to know, or have an idea where else I could look? Thanks. —Angr (talk) 20:56, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

You might try sending an email to one of the bright people at Language Log who like to blog about such questions. Inuit languages often come up in their posts, so they might have something to contribute about that. If not, their readers will know something if you can get them interested. Hans Adler 21:23, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

You can try these six academic library reference desks in Australia.

• Macquarie University Library, Sydney, NSW, Australia
• Ask A Librarian - Macquarie University Library

• University of Wollongong, Wollongong, NSW, Australia
• Ask a Librarian

• Queensland University of Technology, Brisbane, QLD, Australia
• QUT | Library | Need help? Ask a Librarian

• University of Queensland, Brisbane, QLD, Australia
• Ask a Librarian | University of Queensland Library

• Southbank Institute of Technology, South Brisbane, QLD, Australia
• Library Services, Southbank Institute of Technology

• Monash University, Melbourne, VIC, Australia
• Monash University Library

—Wavelength (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

You can explore Native American Language Net: Preserving and promoting indigenous American Indian languages.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

You can explore Australian languages.

Category:User iu mentions a few Wikipedians with some knowledge of Inuktitut.

—Wavelength (talk) 06:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense on Paper

Is there a name for a sentence or statement that makes perfect sense when spoken, but that cannot sensibly be written down? Such statements are ones involving homophones,for example the (nonsensical as written) sentence "There are three twos in the English language." What name is right, or fitting at least? Any other examples? 58.175.131.253 (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you misspelled the sentence. Didn't you mean "There are three /tuː/s in the English language"? Hans Adler 06:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe the standard example in German is: "Der Maler malt ein Bild, der Müller mahlt das Korn. Beide ma[h]len." This translates as: "The painter is painting a picture, the miller is milling the corn. Both are paint/mill-ing." Similar patterns can also be used to produce examples in English. E.g.: "When the 8th form finally emerged from their week-long march through heathen area, the cobbler and the parson both showed themselves concerned over the state of the pupils' soles/souls." Hans Adler 07:01, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the answer to the OP's question is homophonic pun. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:58, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I think of Sir Thomas Beecham's anecdote about some production of an opera he'd been involved in years previously, during which someone unexpectedly interrupted the proceedings by storming onto the stage and demanding to know "Where is the Prophet?", to which Sir Thomas's quip was "I've wondered all these years whether he was talking about a character in the opera, or the financial condition of the company". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 17:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't get this Jack, can you explain? What is the relationship between the word /prɔfɛt/ and financials of a company? --Lgriot (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Profit. Need I say more? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

This particular homophone was also played upon on the English translation of Asterix and the Black Gold. Obelix tells a Jewish merchant that Gauls like to eat wild boar. The merchant replies that Judaism prohibits eating pork, because it is against the laws of the Prophets. Obelix asks: "Prophets? You mean pork butchers can't make a profit here?" JIP | Talk 19:46, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Browsing

Is it possible that young people today do not know what the word "browse" means and think that it refers only, or at least primarily, to what is done with a web browser? I take the normal meaning to include things like looking through non-fiction bookshelves in a library just in case something you weren't thinking of, and maybe have never heard of, catches your fancy and then you want to know more about it. As opposed to having at least some idea of something that you're looking for.

I've used the term in some discussions of policies affecting the development Wikipedia. Some people have said the purpose of disambiguation pages and topics lists is navigation—helping people find something they're looking for. I have taken issue with that view, saying that's not the only purpose: sometimes they also serve the purpose of browsing, which in some ways is ultimately more important. I wonder if some readers fail to understand what I'm saying because the word "browse" has recently (say within the past 15 years or so) been replaced by a different word that's spelled and pronounced the same way. Michael Hardy (talk) 22:57, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Before the word browse was used as a verb for the act of casually examining [something], it was used as a verb for the act of grazing [by animals]. (http://www.onelook.com/?w=browse&ls=a and http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=browse&searchmode=none)

—Wavelength (talk) 23:31, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Not grazing, really, since that means eating things off the ground, like grasses. Browsing is more about eating things off trees. A giraffe would be a good example of a browser. StuRat (talk) 01:57, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The article "Grazing" says "For terrestrial animals, grazing is normally distinguished from browsing in that grazing is eating grass or other low vegetation, and browsing is eating woody twigs and leaves from trees and shrubs." Dictionaries differ from each other in regard to making that distinction, and The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (the first one listed on the page to which the first link in my first comment goes) includes "graze" as a definition of browse at http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/browse.

—Wavelength (talk) 06:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

If a man's wife catches him nibbling on the ears of another woman, he can claim he was "just browsing". :-) StuRat (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The original question seems to be difficult to answer directly, but you can explore Google Ngram Viewer.

Also, my Google search for just browsing reported "[a]bout 94,900,000 results", and the first one was http://www.focusenglish.com/dialogues/shopping/justlooking.html.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

But it's not just about book shops. Anyone who's ever been into a clothing shop, shoe shop, jewellery shop, card shop, and many others, will know what browsing means. If only to respond to the pesky attendant who insists on approaching them to ask if they need any help, with "No thanks, I'm just browsing". Some people say "just looking", but the concept is the same. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 17:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

STX: You can test your hypothesis by visiting shops and by telling inquiring clerks that you are just browsing. (I recommend that any browsing of grapes be done by sight or by touch, but not by tasting or eating them.)

—Wavelength (talk) 23:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

[I am revising my message, by changing the indicative is to the subjunctive be.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)]

____________________________________________________________________________

Your "STX" link confuses me. How does that relate to this Q ? StuRat (talk) 23:10, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

STX means "Start of text", and I used it to indicate that I was starting a new message in this discussion. (The link is to an article section which explains what it means.) I indented my message in accordance with Help:Using talk pages#Indentation. Some editors have considered two consecutive equally indented messages to be visually confusing, so I used STX to make the start of my message easy to distinguish. Links to discussions about indentations are listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=indentation&prefix=Wikipedia+talk%3AReference+desk%2F&fulltext=Search&fulltext=Search.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

It appears to just talk about control characters, at least the preview I see when hovering over it. I suppose it might explain it if I actually went to the article, but that's a bit much to ask, in a case like this, don't you think ? And, while many might get the reference over at the Computer Desk, I doubt if many would get it here. Perhaps a dividing line would be clearer (doesn't wiki support that any more ?). Or maybe just some blank lines, then. Or the text "New thread:". StuRat (talk) 01:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

It is not a new thread, but a new message in the same thread, and a dividing line is unnecessary and possibly confusing. I adapted STX to a new use, because it was the least ambiguous symbol that I could find for the purpose. I used it to indicate a new message, not a new thread. That new message is about browsing. I do not consider visiting the article to be too difficult.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, many of our science and math articles are written with the same philosophy, where understanding each sentence requires any non-PhD to read another article (which in turn requires reading many more articles, etc.). In this case, though, reading the article doesn't even explain the way you are using the term. StuRat (talk) 23:50, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Wavelength - while I know you provide a lot of interesting and useful information on the ref desk, I feel obliged to say that at least some of the ref deskers are human and not computers, so it is quite likely that they will be confused with something like "STX" even if it seems a very logical thing to do. If I may, I would like to suggest that perhaps typing "New topic" or "As an aside" or "On a side note" or something else in human readable language might indeed be less effort on your part and less likely to confuse others at the same time. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:26, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

My message of 23:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC) was not on a new topic, but it was on the same original topic. I used STX to distinguish that message from the previous message, which was at the same level of indentation. I do not have difficulty in distinguishing timestamped messages at the same level, but I provided STX for the benefit of editors who apparently have that difficulty.

A new topic was started at 23:10, 24 May 2011 (UTC) by StuRat, who added a dividing line at 01:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC) and removed it at 01:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC) and added a dividing line of a different kind at 01:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC).

For clarity, I am moving the dividing line to a place immediately before the message of 23:10, 24 May 2011 (UTC) by StuRat. That is the first message of a new topic.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm realising that you may not have been using "STX" in the sense that I understood it from your explanations. If all you are trying to do is to distinguish it from the thread above, then why not do this? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:07, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

(new reply) (or new post). It really isn't necessary to start using a jargon abbreviation with a link whose purpose is not immediately clear to humans. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:07, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

In that case, I would want to make the indicator more conspicuous.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:11, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

New message: The phrase New message conspicuously indicates a new message.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:11, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

There ya go, that'll work. StuRat (talk) 23:41, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Académie française

Has there ever been a woman in the Académie? --75.40.204.106 (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

See the penultimate paragraph of Académie française#Membership. Deor (talk) 00:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Which states: "There have been a total of 719 immortels, of whom six have been women (the first woman, Marguerite Yourcenar, was elected in 1980 — besides the six elected women, 14 women were candidates, the first one in 1874)." StuRat (talk) 02:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)