Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 September 19

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September 19[edit]

Thinking in a second language[edit]

I'm an italian and i'm learning the english. I translate every word from italian to english. Are there a method to learn to think in english? Is it a training problem?--Kaspo (talk) 01:03, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most people really only learn to think in another language once they're fluent in it. I'm learning Indonesian and still think in English. Wouldn't say you'd ever need to. Also, literal translations are bad. ;) Avnas Ishtaroth drop me a line 01:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome to English Through Pictures. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that watching English tv channels with no subtitles is a very good exercise for your brain to assimilate a language, not just learn it. Thinking naturally in a language requires at least some degree of assimilation. Húsönd 01:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PBS Kids - Mister Rogers' Neighborhood Home Page.
-- Wavelength (talk) 04:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You will *never* become good in a foreign language if you keep translating in your head. Force yourself not to do it or you'll just end up sounding like babelfish. Read books, watch movies, immerse yourself. Equendil Talk 07:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To elaborate a bit, there's just too many differences between languages for which there are no strict rules. Gramatically correct sentences might end up sounding odd while incorrect formulations such as "there's too many ..." that I have just used here (should be "there are too many ...") might not raise an eyebrow. Speaking of "raising an eyebrow" (meaning "shock" or "surprise"), expressions differ wildly from one language to another, I expect that one would not make any sense in Italian. One mistake you made here that betrays your Italian origin is "learning the english": definite articles are frequently (and increasingly so) omitted in english, while (in my very limited experience) Italian people make abundant use of those. It might be hard to tell when you should or should not use them. You can "learn the english language", or "learn english", but you cannot "learn english language" or "learn the english", yet you can equally "learn the piano" or "learn piano".
I am French, I learned english at school, I learned the grammar, learned irregular verbs and so on and so forth. Years and years of it and my english sucked anyway. Don't get me wrong I could read everyday english (and technical stuff as a software engineer) and make myself understood, but it didn't feel right and it was not. One day, I forced myself to read a novel in English rather than a translation thereof, with limited dictionary support. Can't say it was easy, probably didn't understand half of it, but I persisted, I read another, and another and another. On the third book, I could already understand most of it with little effort, and I kept going. Suffice to say that improved my english dramatically, in a way no amount of being taught English at school could have done. I still make mistakes now and then (then again so do native speakers) but I could easily pretend to be american or british on the Internet. Plus I got to read all those nice books in the process :) Equendil Talk 10:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nice answer. [Side comment: Since we're correcting the finer points like "learning the English", you should know that it's not OK to interchange upper and lower case initials with words such as "English", "British" and "American". They always take upper case. "Internet" generally takes lower case (except where, such as in this sentence, it's the first word of a sentence).] -- JackofOz (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the Internet capitalization conventions are a complicated enough issue that we have an article on them. —Angr 13:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just my two cents. The proper name of the public worldwide internet using TCP/IP (where internet means "interconnected network") is the Internet, but since in many cases this is the only internet people are familiar with, they simply call it "the internet", even if "the Internet" would be more precise. In the same way, the proper name of Earth's only moon (where moon means "natural satellite") is the Moon, but since in many cases this is the only moon people are familiar with, they simply call it "the moon", even if "the Moon" would be more precise. And one of the proper names of our galaxy is the Galaxy (the other one being the Milky Way) ... I think you get the point. Is this correct? --A r m y 1 9 8 7 ! ! ! 09:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You do not need to be fluent in a language in order to think in it. You may even see dreams while you sleep in another language even if you have not achieved fluency (the grammar and use of the language, of course, may not be considered "correct"!). Same thing with thinking: not being fluent does not mean you cannot think in it, but the way you think in it may not be "correct" usage of the language (sometimes, if you have got used to thinking in a certain way, you may still continune thinking in an "incorrect" way even after you become fluent in your speech and writing!). I know most language learners don't think, let alone dream, in other languages, and I believe this is related to the age in which they started working with a language and to the way they undertake their training. If you first heard a word in a foreign language at 30 years old and your training is focused on grammar then I believe you have less probability to think in it or "speak/hear" this language while dreaming. But if you started learning a language when you were a child, maybe in a bilingual or trilingual family, and your training focuses on vocabulary associations (not necessarily explanations) and imitation (most people probably know this style by the name immersion), then I beleive that you have high probability of actually using this language in your thinking etc. But this is only my hypothesis, I haven't read any research on this field lately. However, I believe that thinking in another language that you are learning may not be always desirable: your thnking may not correspond to the "correct" way that language is used, and sometimes your thinking in a particular language may get mixed with fragments of another language (eg your native one), creating a mixture which could not be identified as any kind of language, and resulting in your having to translate your thinking in "correct" language :) NerdyNSK (talk) 15:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One thing I, as a British English speaker, did to develop my fluency in Japanese was to talk to myself in Japanese around the home, specifically when I was in the bath at night-time and I knew no-one could hear me so I wouldn't feel self-conscious when I spoke (I lived alone in a small apartment in a rural area of Japan). I would have a bath for about an hour and just pick a random topic, whether it be about something that happened that day or something I read in the newspaper. I would then say everything I could about the 'topic' until it was exhausted. One good way I found of getting my speed up was to whisper the words and not actually use my voice. In this way, I was training my mouth to get into the correct positions, without the added effort of actually using the vocal chords, and without the interruption of having to clear my throat. It worked quite well for me and I used to teach it to my students. Also, I found that whispering helped to control my breath, so when I was pronouncing words with p, t, and k in them, I was using less breath than when I would pronounce them in English, a 'requirement, so to speak, in Japanese. Being an Italian speaker, with a similar pronunciation of p, t, and k to Japanese, you may find this useful.--ChokinBako (talk) 15:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From my Google search, I found these websites.
-- Wavelength (talk) 16:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
These articles may be helpful.
-- Wavelength (talk) 16:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is also the article about Simple English Wikipedia, with its external link to the encyclopedia's main page.
-- Wavelength (talk) 16:17, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can listen to the BBC World Service in English on the internet at [1]. DuncanHill (talk) 16:25, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From my Google search for "english conversation" (correct spelling: "English conversation"), I selected all of the first 10 results (of about 4,330,000). Every one of these is a winner. Wow! This looks like the most successful Google search I have ever made. Evidently, there are many people with the skill and desire (and technology) to help foreigners who want to learn English.
Everyday English in Conversation
Focus on English: ESL Conversation Online
English Conversation
English Daily - Learn American idioms, English conversation
English conversation phrases and expressions for speaking practice
Daily ESL: Conversation Starters for English Students
English Pronunciation, Speaking and Conversation Help for ESL
English Conversations - English Conversation Recordings
Speak English - English Chat and Conversational English Practice
Free Online English Lessons with Sound
-- Wavelength (talk) 17:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To find websites with information about mistakes which Italians make in the English language, I did a Google search for pages with the words "italians english mistakes", and I selected the following.
from which I found the main page:
-- Wavelength (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can find lyrics and melodies of many songs in many languages at http://ingeb.org/.
-- Wavelength (talk) 23:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

pronunciation of R in old tupi language[edit]

your help needed here. Just Omer • Talk 14:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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