Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 November 30

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November 30[edit]

This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on November 30, 2018.

Chris Chung[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was keep. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 04:11, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are two people, Christopher Chung and Christopher Chung (actor). Both 5-6 years old and both at 5-10 views/day recently. Should redirect of "Chris" go to the primary? MB 23:48, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep the actor is the only one whose article indicates he is called "Chris" and he's the only one in a country where it's common practice to shorten names like this. In fact "Chris Chung" might even be his WP:COMMONNAME, though that's a matter for WP:RM. In contrast, in Hong Kong short versions of English names are effectively treated as different names, meaning that almost no one calls the politician "Chris" ("Chris Chung" gets two hits in the South China Morning Post, as opposed to 200+ as "Christopher Chung"; and conversely e.g. no one calls Billy Chow "William"). 59.149.124.29 (talk) 00:53, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, he's not common name enough to rename the article to Chris Chung, as his resume still points to Christopher Chung, but it can retain the hatnote and this redirect. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Redirects that formerly targeted OnlySee[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#Redirects that formerly targeted OnlySee

SoundCloud rap[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was keep. Discussion on whether to split the article can continue on the article's talk page. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 04:13, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SoundCloud rap and "mumble rap" refer to two completely different things, even though they're often conflated. "Mumble rap" is almost exclusively a derogatory term used by hip-hop "elitists" to discredit rappers whose lyricism doesn't hold to their own subjective standards, and SoundCloud rap refers to a group of artists and styles who use SoundCloud as their main platform to spread their music. While there is overlap, the two terms don't mean the same thing and aren't interchangeable. On top of this, the links that refer to SoundCloud rap shouldn't refer to "mumble rap," as it's not a subgenre but merely a derogatory term. Distortiondude (talk) 01:58, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Considering that this redirect was not tagged with {{Rfd}} until today, in addition to the discussion being listed on the incorrect day (nomination made on 24 November 2018, but was listed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 November 23#SoundCloud rap), relisting for proper notification via tagging the redirect is needed.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 22:10, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There is a source in the lead backing that the two terms refer to the same genre. While "mumble rap" can be used in a derogatory way, it is still the common term for the genre itself, alongside "SoundCloud rap". Sekyaw (talk) 02:10, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

List of Australian films: 2005 – Upcoming[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#List of Australian films: 2005 – Upcoming

List of Australian films: 2005 -[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:16, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unlikely search term due to use of dash. Steel1943 (talk) 21:50, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

List of Australian films: Other[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:17, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This redirect is confusing: Other than what? Steel1943 (talk) 21:43, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

TV5 AniMEGA[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was soft delete. Deryck C. 12:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unclear what this refers to. Steel1943 (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

TV5 Kids[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was soft delete. Deryck C. 12:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unclear what this refers to. Steel1943 (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

TV5 Asianovelas Upcoming[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was soft delete. Deryck C. 12:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Target is unclear on what these redirects refer to. (Note: TV5 Asianovelas Upcoming is a {{R with history}}.) Steel1943 (talk) 21:39, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Gambit (2016 film)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:15, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bunch of failed WP:CRYSTAL since the target’s subject has yet to be released. Steel1943 (talk) 21:12, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Riders in the Sky (TV series)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was Retarget/swap page and redirect. Closing early as this request is clearly uncontroversial, and I consider this a page move I would have accepted if it were requested in WP:RMTR. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 22:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Currently redirects to Riders in the Sky (band)#Tumbleweed Theater (1983–1988), but the band's TV show was titled Tumbleweed Theater, not Riders in the Sky. Meanwhile, Riders in the Sky (1991 TV series) also exists. I suggest that Riders in the Sky (1991 TV series) be swapped with this redirect, which should then be retargeted to the 1991 TV series article. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:54, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. No reason for the redirect to redirect to a series which is not even remotely similarly titled, while there is a series which is actually titled exactly that. --Gonnym (talk) 20:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Move On (Kelly Clarkson song)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:15, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The song this is referring to is Move You. The phrase "Move On" doesn't appear in the song and I don't see why this would be plausible. -- Tavix (talk) 19:49, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Balloon knot[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:14, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These redirects have no incoming links and no edits (other than their creation). Most were mentioned in an Rfd for Tradesman's Entrance in 2009, but nothing further was done. Leschnei (talk) 19:45, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete all as housekeeping, they have been sitting around for many years and were probably made by pranksters who thought it was funny to look up curse words on the Internet. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 20:03, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all the list of inventive ways to describe body parts is endless. Unless these can be shown to be very notable, then delete. --Tom (LT) (talk) 01:03, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all - I agree with Doomsdayer's assessment. Onel5969 TT me 13:03, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Go (Kelly Clarkson song)[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#Go (Kelly Clarkson song)

The Way I Like It (album)[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#The Way I Like It (album)

Teardrops on My Guitar (2nd UK Single Only)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:21, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The only way I can see this making sense if there is a variation/remix/etc. of this song titled "Teardrops on My Guitar (2nd UK Single Only)", but that doesn't look to be the case. -- Tavix (talk) 18:51, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Panic at the disco lyrics[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:10, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NOTLYRICS, you will not find Panic! at the Disco lyrics anywhere on Wikipedia. -- Tavix (talk) 18:46, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. While Wikipedia won't have lyrics themselves it is possible that it might contain encyclopaedic discussion of the band's lyrics or lyrical style (c.f. Lupe Fiasco#Lyrical style; although it seems more common to discuss this on articles about albums than about artists), and this would be a plausible search term for that. However we don't seem to have any content of this nature regarding Panic! at the disco. Thryduulf (talk) 17:31, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

National Panic at the Disco Day[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#National Panic at the Disco Day

Satish Bhaskar[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#Satish Bhaskar

Your Body Is Wonderful[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:09, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I can see this being plausible if the song uses this phrase, but it doesn't. I don't think "wonderful" is close enough to "a wonderland". -- Tavix (talk) 18:07, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete an ordinary English phrase which isn't strongly associated with any particular topic (certainly not the current target) and doesn't appear anywhere in Wikipedia. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 02:55, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

1995 ISAF Sailing World Championships[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:08, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A link to a DAB page which is in use, which means that User:DPL bot is complaining. There is no relevant article on the DAB page; nor will there ever be, because the first Sailing World Championships were held in 2003. IDK what the link in Lee Lai-shan should be, but it certainly shouldn't be the one under consideration. Delete. Narky Blert (talk) 18:06, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Juice, Go To Your Room[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:05, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is this an obscure reference to something, perhaps? I only found this phrase at this forum, but the redirect predates it. -- Tavix (talk) 18:01, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Ready Steady Go (TV series)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to Ready Steady Go. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:04, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Currently redirects to Ready Steady Go (Pakistani TV series), but Ready Steady Go! also exists. So...? --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:51, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Retarget I "created" this by moving an article created by a different user. It should probably be retargeted to Ready Steady Go, a DAB page. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:54, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Flirting With Pie[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:02, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This one looks to be a play on words for one of the songs on this album, "Flirting with Time". -- Tavix (talk) 17:50, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Yo Folks[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:02, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In this context, "Yo" would make more sense as the slang word rather than an abbreviation for Young. -- Tavix (talk) 17:46, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Jekky[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#Jekky

Teardrops On Simp's Computer[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't able to figure this one out. -- Tavix (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete WP:R#D5 "makes no sense". No idea what Simp could mean here. Googling "Simp's Computer" gives a Wikia talk page, an OCR error, and some Wikipedia scrapers. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 09:10, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Sometimes You Whatever[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This redirect doesn't make sense. The article nor the lyrics of the song don't contain the word "whatever". -- Tavix (talk) 17:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Wf*gLY[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense abbreviation(?), similar to Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 May 3#WIFLf*g. -- Tavix (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per nom. In fact, I read the redirect as "wha fugly". Steel1943 (talk) 16:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. I parsed this as a blend of "wtf" and "fugly". Thryduulf (talk) 17:38, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

The Punisher(video game)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:07, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unlikely and unlinked typo with nearly 0 pageviews for which there exists many other better redirects to point to if necessary. Izno (talk) 17:16, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Escape from New York (upcoming film)[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#Escape from New York (upcoming film)

Public holidays in Kurdistan[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This topic isn't mentioned at the target, nor can I find public holidays at Kurdistan or its sub-articles. -- Tavix (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete public holiday states that a public holiday is ... a holiday generally established by law, but there is no such law applicable to Kurdistan as a whole. The public holidays of Iraqi Kurdistan are covered at Public holidays in Iraq, but I don't think this should be a redirect for that topic, given that there's other legal entities like Kurdistan Province of Iran. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 10:16, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

LH44[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was no consensus. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:00, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not a plausible search term, as anyone who knows his car number is 44 would know how to just search for his actual name, Lewis Hamilton Joseph2302 (talk) 14:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, but given that Mercedes uses the hashtag #LH44 quite often in their Instagram posts I thought it may be helpful to redirect it for anyone wondering. Admanny (talk) 16:47, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Admanny's comments about the hashtag, which a google search backs up as the only encyclopaedically notable use of the term (the only other prominent result is a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt to Berlin, but unless that is involved in a notable incident mention on Wikipedia would almost certainly fall foul of WP:NOTTRAVEL and/or WP:NOTDIRECTORY). Thryduulf (talk) 17:45, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, not mentioned in the target article. -- Tavix (talk) 18:07, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Admanny - I just arrived here because I duckduckwent LH44 without any idea what it meant. Quackdave (talk) 21:04, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Harvard Open Access Project[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#Harvard Open Access Project

Public holidays in North America[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 December 8#Public holidays in North America

Rock and rool[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:57, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion as it is clearly a misspelling. 'Rock and rool' is not mentioned anywhere on the article. Also, I have suspicion that the person that made the redirect (FreakyFlyBry) are also making other weird articles and redirects. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 02:15, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I cannot find any reason for keeping this redirect, per nomination it is not mentioned in the article and doesn't seem to be any specific link to this album. Polyamorph (talk) 10:56, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Thanks for pointing out that the creator has some questionable redirects. I think I got them all, but they are ancient so I can't use WP:R3 for any of them. -- Tavix (talk) 18:11, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, his userpage was made by another user. Might they be socks? Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 07:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the creator (user:FreakyFlyBry has not edited since February and the user who created that user page (user:Fredz 84) hasn't editing since 2009 (other than 1 day in 2014) whether or not they are socks is going to be impossible to prove by technical means and almost certainly not worth spending any time on looking at by other means. Thryduulf (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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