Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 June 12

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June 12[edit]

This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on June 12, 2015.

Blackers[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. There is no support for the present target, that is clearly unhelpful, and no consensus on an alternative target. If anyone wants to create a disamb page then that can be done subsequently as a bold editorial action. Just Chilling (talk) 16:48, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:RFD#D2. "Blackpudlian" and "Sangronian" are better demonyms. Pickuptha'Musket (talk) 13:41, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it a valid demonym for Blackpool at all? If so, it should be added to the disambiguation page at Blacker; retargeting this there probably makes sense. --BDD (talk) 15:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've never heard of it, but I am southern English. Strangely, it would seem perfectly good Cockney slang, but not Northern slang. Google lists primarly (and secondarily and teriarwhateverily and quaternily) Blacker's Bakeshop, presumably paid for doing so.
Comment. The only thing I can think of as anywhere near a ref is that it is used in Billy Bragg's song (I forget the name of the song) "When the lackeys send the blackers out to cheat us". Fallen in love with a little time bomb I think. But Bragg is a southerner too. Si Trew (talk) 16:39, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And it's misremembered: it's "When the bosses send their lackeys out".... no mention of blackers. Si Trew (talk) 08:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is it possible to take it to Blinkers (UK. Eng) or Blinders (Am. Eng). or is that just making more trouble? Si Trew (talk) 16:39, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to Blacker as it contains a list of "Blacker"s (surnamed people) -- 70.51.46.11 (talk) 04:55, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I think 70.51's retarget suggestion would set a dangerous precedent. Trews does not redirect to Trew, nor Smiths to Smith (surname). For specific idiomata such as Keeping up with the Joneses there may be a case for it, but even in that case Joneses → The Joneses, an American film. Si Trew (talk) 08:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I live near Blackpool and have never heard this demonym mentioned by locals or even online. I researched demonyms for Blackpool and only found "Blackpudlian" and "Sangronian", which I also have never heard of. Pickuptha'Musket (talk) 13:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 15:29, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think the problem here is that "Blackers" isn't a demonym, but a nickname. I'm relatively local and this is the first time I've heard it, a Google search also didn't result in many hits.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 16:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Retarget - to Blackman I believe this may be a common nickname for anyone with this surname. I know (WP:OR admission) that John Blackman carries this nickname as an example. Dragonfire X (talk) 23:11, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • How about adding that to Blacker and pointing "Blackers" to "Blacker" ? -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 04:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • No. Blacker is an adverb. Blackers is an unrelated nickname. You're introducing confusion with that suggestion. Dragonfire X (talk) 09:52, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • No it isn't, it's an agent noun for people who do blacking (or have I spent too many years filling in cryptic crosswords?). Incidentally, my mother's side of the family has the surname Backman, we think originally from German Bachman or Bachmann, but amongst all of the nicknames, "Blackman" was not one of them. Si Trew (talk) 12:18, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • An agent noun? Black is also a verb, and Blacker (as in more black) is an adverb. "Back" anything has nothing to do with this situation. Dragonfire X (talk) 13:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • You're right about "Back", I was just kinda mentioning it to rule it out. But "Blacker" is not an adverb. It can be a comparative, as an adjective, never an adverb. Whether (in its noun form) you call it an agent noun, agentive noun, or gerund rather depends which grammar you read: but the adverb "Blackly" -> Black. As if English had grammar! Si Trew (talk). To "See through a glass, darkly", (1 Corinthians 13:12 in the KJV) is not "To see through a glass, dark". I seem to remember it was the reading by Tony Blair at Diana, Princess of Wales' funeral. 07:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
            • In the most common context, it IS an adverb as I described. All you are doing is introducing even more confusion which doesn't help resolving this issue. Dragonfire X (talk) 08:53, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, it's a disambiguation page it is neither noun, adverb, verb, or adjective. -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 08:28, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
            • I was wondering if this is a case of WP:ENGVAR, for the adverb. It is not an adverb in British English. I used to get annoyed, when I lived in Texas, to see signs saying "Drive Friendly" when we all know it should be "Drive Friendlily", but US English does tend to fuse adjectives and adverbs in that way, so perhaps that's just a case of ENGVAR. I need not multiply examples, I am sure. Unfortunately it is infiltrating British English, with things like "Box Clever" instead of "Box Cleverly". "Think fast" instead of "Think quickly". Si Trew (talk) 08:40, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to Blacker, a {{surname}} DAB, as {{R from plural}}}. Si Trew (talk) 12:21, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Create a disambiguation page per 70.51. Since, so it seems, none of us can kinda settle on this, all of us in good faith, it seems like the best thing. If we can't make up our minds, what can readers expect except a WP:SURPRISE? I'll make a draft at Draft:Blackers for your consideration. Si Trew (talk) 08:46, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Made the draft for your consideration. Very much a rough first draft. Si Trew (talk) 09:03, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It looks to me, through the course of this discussion, that "Blackers" could sort of maybe kind of refer to several things. But I don't think a dab full of guesses is going to be especially helpful here. Just delete it and walk away. --BDD (talk) 13:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per BDD and WP:SNOWBALL. After a long discussion, just put it to bed. Pickuptha'Musket (talk) 17:45, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

S.A.[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was keep/withdrawn. --BDD (talk) 19:01, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Thanks to 70.51, I've commented on Talk:S.A. (corporation) and I dislike splitting discussions but we have to start somewhere. (It's a move request there, but not to a title I like: corporations under civil law) Leaving that aside, this R goes to S.A., a DAB page, where it is not mentioned: Of course the obvious quick fix is to add it at that DAB, but considering the malarkey we have with S.p.A. et al, I think it is better to list here. We could possibly merge into that discussion, I dunno. Si Trew (talk) 09:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My proposed move would be to S.A. → S.A. (corporation). This is, if you'll excuse my French, all arse about face, put the article at S.A., the redirects will follow. I do appreciate there are variations in many other Latinate languages, but all are "S.A." in that way, I realise this is not specific to France or French, but I think searching for "S.A." if you see it on a packet (or SA) and wonder what it means, that would be the obvious place to go. There is no need to disambiguate it with "(corporation)" when S.A. is going spare. (as indeed am I). Si Trew (talk) 09:16, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The article itself is simply a list article of what it is called in various countries/languages. WP:NOTDIC, and not a translation dictionary. In the article, Egypt and Arabic are duplicated, and both have a miscellaneous parenthesis in them – presumably cut and paste. (I guess with Egypt, it is from the time when the spiteful, cowardly French colonized Upper Egypt and the brave, courageous British brought education, sanitation, roads, etc. etc. to Lower Egypt)Don't mention the war!. It's not a designation one commonly sees in alphabets other than latin, or at least was not common when I lived in Cairo; but my Arabic is a bit rusty. Si Trew (talk) 09:50, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I prefer keeping the target as the disambiguation page. Unlike S.p.A. this doesn't have some unique form of capitalization, and it is now listed on the dpage -- 70.51.46.11 (talk) 04:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. S.A. is an R to the DAB at SA, and without prejudice I will mark as {{R to disambiguation page}}. 70.51 comes in good faith as always, and I think on this one, wins the day. But even if not, no harm in marking it such in the meantime. Si Trew (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As an initialism, SA could be rendered S.A. in really any instance, even if it's not the most common way of doing so. --BDD (talk) 13:50, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Way too common an abbreviation for both South Africa and South Australia (particularly the latter) to delete and the corporation argument above is not common enough to suggest retargetting in any way. Dragonfire X (talk) 23:14, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and Procedural close as nominator, please. The target has gone under several revisions since I listed it, including one from our User:BDD, so I think in light of that, my initial comments no longer make sense. The tags at the redirect can be replaced, I think, just by {{R from other punctuation}}, if we have consent to keep. Si Trew (talk) 12:41, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

S.p.A.[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to SPA (disambiguation). Deryck C. 12:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:RFD#D2 "may cause confusion", WP:RFD#D5 "makes no sense". The Italian formation of a limited company is not the same as the French one. Si Trew (talk) 15:47, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy keep Are we looking at the same article? It's not limited to French usage, and right there in the "In different countries" section it says "Società Anonima in Italian (since 1942 Società per Azioni, S.p.A.)". --BDD (talk) 15:57, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refine{{struck Si Trew (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)}, then, as {{R to section}} S.A. (corporation)#In different countries. I told you, have can, will worms: what are "different countries"? Perhaps Elsewhere or in the List of countries that are not France? It's not very WP:NEUTRAL, is it, but that's for another day. Si Trew (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. S.P.A. → SPA, the DAB. There is something afoot here, since any fule kno that Spa, Belgium is where we get the word "Spa" from (also I am now inundated with ads for hot baths in Budapest, thanks!) but the caps and punctuation etc on the redirects are a bit of a mess to where they go. NOW JUST WALK OUT OF THE ROOM AND LET IT GO TREW... Si Trew (talk) 16:26, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ach, on that DAB (Spa being primary topic for a hot water treatment) we also have S.P.A. (automobile), which would not be relevant except they were Italian (in Turin), full name Società Piemontese Automobili which redirects there. Yes, I know WP:DIFFCAPS, but unfortunately most search engines, including Wikipedia's, don't. Si Trew (talk) 16:34, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) That's more of a problem. I think it's ok for S.p.A. and S.P.A. to be different, per WP:DIFFCAPS, but that might be worthy of discussion, if you'd like. As it stands, deliberate lowercasing of the P almost certainly refers to the Italian corporation suffix. --BDD (talk) 16:38, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely done, I struck mine and will try again. Si Trew (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But S.A. (corporation) says S.p.A. is an Italian equivalent. Is that wrong? --BDD (talk) 13:13, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To my mind, it is wrong, because the laws of incorporation differ. 'F'rexample, we don't say that GmbH → Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung is "equivalent", even though that is incorporated under civil law. (I am leaving common law corporate names such as Ltd and Inc. and plc – all of which are DAB pages – aside). Yes, they are kinda the same structure, but internally they differ a lot: f'rexample how the board of directors is elected (or not). It's the equivalence that I am unhappy about, they are not equivalent. But perhaps I am being too kinda legalistic or mathematical. Si Trew (talk) 19:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
n.b. Si, {{R to disambiguation page}} doesn't belong on every R to a disambiguation page, confusingly. Per the template's documentation, it only applies to redirects with (disambiguation) in the title. --BDD (talk) 13:11, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, 7ó.51, I listed them correctly according to the instructions, that is what it told me to do. I would have been quite happy if we just had it here without my listing it, but the Rfd instructions and so on for WP:Requested move tell me such-and-such. Don't mind if that move request failed, but I went through the proper procedure. It's a pain in the arse to request a move if one is not an admin: I did as I should according to the instructions. My zero keeo key escapes me, I have no idea what keyboard layout it thinks it's on, since I plugged in Flemish one. Not Hungarian, not Flams, not English. Si Trew (talk) 07:50, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Palace of Varieties[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. --BDD (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. To come with clean hands, I put this as a link on my talk page referring (kindly) to RfD itself as a "palace of varieties" which is why I like to come here, we get so varied stuff. I wasn't expecting it to go to the Opera House in Belfast, particularly, so that was a WP:SURPRISE. Si Trew (talk) 11:59, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per above and I would add that there is just one mention of the name and nothing else (and it was only called that for five years, which in the life of the theatre represents a pittance of time really). Dragonfire X (talk) 23:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

STFU[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was keep. The discussion below has demonstrated that Southern Tenant Farmers Union is an appropriate primary topic for this abbreviation as far as the scope of Wikipedia is concerned. The existing hatnote has taken care of the need for disambiguation. Deryck C. 19:22, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Retarget dependent on our decision at #SHUT THE FUCK UP below. This abbreviation seems more likely than the Southern Tenants Farmers Union, and a quick search around the Web shows it to be true. Retarget and hatnote. Si Trew (talk) 11:06, 12 June 2015 (UTC) Si Trew (talk) 11:06, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak keep I don't doubt that that's a more common usage than the Southern Tenants Farmers Union, but we're an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. I think the status quo, with a hatnote, is fine. --BDD (talk) 15:11, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we don't have Southern Tenants Farmers Union, as you wrote. Nor do we have Southern Tenants' Farmers Union nor Southern Tenant's Farmer's Union. We do have Southern Tenant Farmers' Union → same target. (Also there are redirects for Sdfu, but that's probably ranging too far out of the ambit of these two.) I do still think it gives the tenant farmers perhaps a bit of WP:UNDUE recognition. Si Trew (talk) 11:33, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • NOTE see also redirects stfu and The STFU and STFU newbie! -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 04:56, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disambiguate shut up lists this version; S.T.F.U. also means "Special Task Force Unicorn" in the fictional universe of Monster Hunter International (a rather prominent organization in that fictional universe) ; and form the former content at "The STFU" it's a wrestling move variant on STF which at Judgment Day (2007) that links through STFU to STS, so an alternate name for STS. And we'd add a link to Wiktionary ; "stfu" and "The STFU" would then also point to the dpage -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 04:56, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per BDD's rationale. Let's all check our WP:SYSTEMICBIAS on this one: surely each one of us is more familiar with "STFU" as an interjected epithet, but we're not Urban Dictionary. Ivanvector (talk) 14:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed WP:NOTDIC, but also I think WP:COMMONNAME has to be considered too. I think if we establish the target below to "Shut up", which seems to be a WP:AVALANCHE of opinion towards that (I could try to hit it with a WP:SNOWBALL), then these will naturally follow. Si Trew (talk) 11:20, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I must admit I do have a systemic bias against Southern tenant farmers: especiallly the notable two who became President of the Union. Si Trew (talk) 11:59, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per BDD. It's a Wikipedia:Primary topic, so I'd want to broaden the discussion to evaluate all candidates before switching it. Status quo OK in the meantime. Widefox; talk 17:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per BDD. I do agree with the above that the ahem... "command" is more familiar to us netizens. However, the farmer's union has existed far longer than the net and can be considered as a better primary topic. There's a hatnote that points to shut up anyways. --Lenticel (talk) 23:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, as always. Somehow I missed that the target had the hatnote already. Si Trew (talk) 11:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This is something of a grey area. On the one hand, STFU is much better known as the acronym for Shut The Fuck Up than the current target. On the other hand, it's quite right to note that STFU in that usage is more urban dictionary than encyclopedia, which would therefore be in violation of WP:NOT. However I lean towards an arrangement per my vote below (I admit to typing this first). Dragonfire X (talk) 23:24, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2009 January 25 apparently discusses Stufu), which also links to the tenant farmers: but I can't see anything on the discussion about it. It was,retargeted from Internet slang on 26 Jan 2009 by User:Richard0612 (with this edit). Again, that seems a bit WP:UNDUE. I am not sure if e.g. SNAFU maybe was called to mind, or "stuff you!"" or Get stuffed, common mild British English ways to swear at another, usually used sarcastically or ironically, but again, WP:NOTDIC. Si Trew (talk) 11:44, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

SHUT THE FUCK UP[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to Shut up. I've refined the target of both redirects to Shut up#Variations. Deryck C. 19:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

no mention or obvious connection Etiquette. The lowercase Shut The Fuck Up is adequate as full caps not used at Shut up. Widefox; talk 05:32, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. I removed another from immediately above here which was identical, I am sure the nom just listed twice in error – no attempt on my part at WP:CENSORSHIP, just gnoming (I did make trebly sure it was exactly the same and not just an alternative name – the Wikimedia software injected a different section link to distinguish, to make it #SHUT_THE_FUCK_UP_2, so even it thought they were the same section title and thus the same redirect, from which the section title is derived if you use Twinkle.) I've marked this as {{R from other capitalisation}}, as usual without prejudice to this discussion but until we have consensus that is what it is: but as you see from immediately below my opinion is... Si Trew (talk) 09:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as {{R from other capitalisation}}. Si Trew (talk) 09:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. STFU → Southern Tenant Farmers Union, and while that is correct, I think we should hatnote it? I don't swear much myself, well I do but I keep them for special occasions, but would I be right in thinking the more obvious use would be as an abbreviation of "Shut the Fuck Up"? Do we need a hatnote there? I can imagine that it may have been tried before and removed (haven't drawledcrawled through all the history yet). Si Trew (talk) 10:34, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, my scientifically conducted opinion poll (population 1: SD: 0: No: 1: Yes: 0: Accuracy: 0) of User:Monkap, the missus, shows that shethe surveyed population has never heard of it, and shethe surveyed population is in the bracket of those who regularly use that kind of new-fangled mobile interweb stuff. But a Google search shows me and herthe surveyed population otherwise. Si Trew (talk) 10:59, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to Shut up, where it's mentioned. It's specifically mentioned at #Variations, but it's semantically similar enough I'd prefer not having a section redirect. --BDD (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget per BDD, and I think Si (your comment does not seem to be a keep !vote). Ivanvector (talk) 14:32, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget I'd missed any mention at Shut up. Per BDD (again). Widefox; talk 17:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to Shut up per BDD. --Lenticel (talk) 23:21, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to Shut up and do the same to STFU above, subject to opinions otherwise re the grey area mentioned. Dragonfire X (talk) 23:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget as all above. BDD, my keep !vote is immediately above the comment, but I am striking it with this edit: much better idea, to retarget. Si Trew (talk) 10:49, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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