Wikipedia:Peer review/Imogen Holst/archive1

Imogen Holst

This peer review discussion has been closed.

Imogen Holst was the busiest of busy bees in the British classical music world for decades. She did just about everything: she composed, conducted, danced, played the piano, taught, wrote lots of books, started orchestras and choirs, ran festivals... and so on, and so on. Unlike her famous dad, she never reached the heights as a composer, and gets little attention in this department, though the value of her overall contribution to musical life in Britain is widely acknowledged. One problem I had with this article is what to call her: "Holst" would cause confusion with her father who is frequently mentioned, and in any event surely has a prior claim to be "Holst". To keep calling her "Imogen Holst" would be tediously repetitive. So I have done what I did with Cosima Wagner, and referred to Imogen throughout by her first name. I will welcome any alternative suggestion for dealing with the name issue, along with any other ideas for the improvement and polish of this not very long article. Brianboulton (talk) 21:06, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

First batch – to the end of the Dartington section

• What a perfect photo of Imogen! So nice, so devoid of malice, so naïve even. A rare spirit faithfully caught.
• As discussed elsewhere (user talk page) I think you have made the right choice in referring to her as "Imogen" throughout. She has to be Imogen in the early part, where Gustav is still alive, and changing her to "Holst" after 1934 would be to change gear with a loud grinding noise and might briefly have your readers unsure if you are talking about her or her father. The Cosima precedent is a good one.
• Childhood and education
  • "Richmond, a riverside town to the west of London" – was it really a separate town in 1907, rather than a suburb of London? (Not a rhetorical question: I genuinely don't know, which is why I ask.)

• • I think it is safe to say that in 1907, Richmond was sufficiently detached from the metropolis not to be considered a suburb. But many suburbs consider themselves as "towns", anyway. I don't think the point is contentious. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• • "Isobel, née Harrison" – as far as I can remember, "née" is usually italicised.
• Schooling
  • You catch the schoolgirl slang beautifully, without overdoing it. One smiles – but affectionately.
  • "Ops 1, 2, 3 and 4" – I have a notion, not vouched for, that the usual plural form of "Op" is "Opp". Quite prepared to be told I'm talking rubbish.

• • I've never seen the plural form "Opp", which doesn't seem to have much logic, anyway. (A google search reveals that "OPP" is slang for a rather lewd expression – which was new to me, I have to say) Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
    • Good God! Not my area of expertise. Tim riley (talk) 17:29, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
    • Chicago 8.191 gives "opp." and OED gives both "opp." and "ops." --Stfg (talk) 23:55, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
      • Thanks – but in view of possible alternative interpretations I think we should stick with "ops"! Brianboulton (talk) 11:51, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
        • Hehe, yes. However, it should probably be followed by a period per WP:OPUS. --Stfg (talk) 11:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• • "Imogen founded a folk dance society in the School." – capitalised School here, but lower case in the next sentence. The latter is better, I think.
• Royal College of Music
  • "She began at the RCM in autumn 1926" – the MoS bids us avoid mention of seasons, for the benefit of readers in the opposite hemisphere.
  • "William H. Reed" – I think I'd pipe him to W. H. Reed, which is how he's usually referred to and how his name appears on the title pages of his two books on my shelves.
  • "the piece … was scheduled to be played" – and presumably was played.
• EFDSS and teaching, 1931–38
  • "In 1936 she paid a visit to Hollywood, where she met her uncle (Gustav's brother), the actor Ernest Cossart." – This might be read as meaning that this was the first time she'd met him, but I imagine they met when the brothers were in England together a few years earlier.
• War: travelling for CEMA
  • "According to Isabel's account " – Imogen's, I presume. (Incidentally, how very modern her activities seem as described here. Not in the least formal and stuffy, bless her!)
• Dartington
  • "and was instrumental in arranging its debut at Dartington, as the "Brainin Quartet"" – I think it's wise to avoid this use of the word "instrumental" in any musical article. Safer to have her taking the lead, or some such.

I am enjoying this very much. More shortly. Tim riley (talk) 17:25, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Addendum to first batch: a penny has just dropped in the dusty recesses of the Riley brain – Gustav(us) didn't formally change his surname, dropping the "von", until the First World War, so presumably Imogen was officially "von Holst" when she was born. Tim riley (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

• I have added an explanatory footnote. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Just the job! But n.b. 1916 in the new note, but 1918 in the London Gazette. I was about to change 1916 to 1918, but had a moment of doubt. Tim riley (talk) 14:27, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• • It should indeed be 1918 – my typo, well spotted. Brianboulton (talk) 09:49, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

And another thing. I am, cards on the table, no fan of info-boxes except for, e.g., cricketer or politico biogs, but if one must have them they ought to contain something of some use, however little. Even boxophiles would surely allow that the content of the present box is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. We should fill it out or else blitz it. I know which I prefer, but I'll shut up at this point. – Tim riley (talk) 18:15, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

• Point under consideration. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Concluding

• Assistant to Britten
  • It gets slightly submerged here that in addition to helping Britten with his composing work, Imogen played a leading role in performances at the festival quite some time before becoming an artistic director. For instance at the opening concert of the 1953 festival Britten conducted just one piece, the omnium gatherum Variations on Sellinger’s Round and Imogen was in charge for Arne's Ode in Honour of Great Britain and "Now all the air shall ring" and Purcell's Anthem O Lord, grant the [King/] Queen a long life. And it seems to me from the Decca archives that she was chorus master of the Aldeburgh Festival Chorus. (See Stuart Philip's invaluable Decca archive – a big file, takes a while to open.)

• • I have added a line at the beginning of the "Artistic director" section, to underline Imogen's festival activities before she joined the directorate. Although she did on occasion conduct the Festival Chorus, I have seen nothing that suggests she was its chorus master; she much more frequently conducted the Purcell Singers. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• Artistic director
  • "At that point she again revised her career objectives" – a whiff of HR Department phrasing here. The sentence would work very well if pruned to "At that point, conscious of time passing, she determined to give priority to the final securing of her father's musical legacy, and to re-establish her credentials as a composer."
  • "Imogen was unsure that she could maintain a working relationship with Pears alone" – we are given the impression earlier that PP was a great admirer of Imogen. Do we know what her qualms were about working with him?

• • She was, as you know, smitten with Britten. She thought that Pears was disloyal, both personally (dalliances on the side) and musically – she noted that Pears took little interest in BB's work when he was not directly involved in it as a singer. But basically, the problem was that he was not Britten. I did not think to amplify this, but will do so if you think it important. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
    • Fine with me. Tim riley (talk) 09:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• Late career
  • "The year also saw the publication" – some people (not including me) get strangely exercised by the notion that years can see. I just mention it.
  • "facsimile edition of her father's works" – does this mean facsimiles of Gustav's manuscripts?
  • "she organised a special 70th birthday celebration concert" – "special" seems a touch unnecessary here.
• Other things that occurred to me while reading:
  • Recordings: you don't mention her important work for the pioneering Lyrita label, filling in gaps in the Gustav Holst discography. For Lyrita she conducted: A Fugal Concerto, the Lyric Movement, the St Paul’s Suite, the Brook Green Suite, A Moorside Suite (Nocturne) the Double Violin Concerto, Country Song & Marching Song, the Golden Goose and Capriccio. Also, Imogen conducted a recording of Savitri for Argo in Oct and Nov 1965 with Janet Baker in the title role: perhaps worth a mention somewhere. The Lyrita and Argo recordings are detailed in Stuart Philip's archive, mentioned above.

• • I have added something relating to her Lyrita and Argo recordings of Gustav's music. Do you know who is the publisher of the Stuart Philip discography? At the moment I can't formulate a reference. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
    • The publisher is the Arts and Humanities Research Council's Research Centre for the History and Analysis of Recorded Music, a snappy title pleasingly shortened on its website to "CHARM". As the host site is Royal Holloway College, I suppose the location is the Gothic Horror at Egham. The author is not Stuart Philip, as I said above, but Philip Stuart: very remiss of me to mangle his name. His marvellous catalogue is dated July 2009. There isn't an ISBN or OCLC number. – Tim riley (talk) 09:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• • Venus and Adonis which you mention under " Assistant to Britten" was put on at Aldeburgh in a double bill with Savitri (mentioned in the "Artistic director" section. The performances (under Mackerras before he became one of Britten's corpses) were recorded live and came out on CD in 2009. In The Musical Times Donald Mitchell was rude about both works: "Blow's Masque was musically very dull—its few inspirations were lost in acres of vacancy .... Miss Imogen Holst, who was responsible for this 'new realization ', does not seem to have uncovered a masterpiece. … Savitri does nothing to increase Holst's reputation and, along with 'Venus and Adonis', may safely be dropped from the Group's repertory. Neither piece, as I see it, serves any artistic or historical purpose whatsoever." On the other hand Peter Heyworth in The Observer gave the Holst a very favourable notice.

• • I have brought the mentions of Venus and Savitri together under one section. I honestly don't think that comments on recordings issued 50 years after the event, and 25 years after Imogen's death, have great relevance to this article so I've not included these. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• • Worth mentioning the tribute concerts at Aldeburgh in 2007? Andrew Clements in The Guardian: "This is [Imogen] Holst's centenary year, and Aldeburgh paid its own tribute to her with a day of performances and discussions; the pair of concerts took place in the parish church, next to the graveyard in which she is buried and just a couple of hundred yards from her final home. There was a late-night programme by I Fagiolini that recreated the kind of programme Holst herself regularly conducted in the same building, pairing choral settings by Britten with English madrigals by Tompkins and Byrd, while the afternoon recital by the hugely promising Navarra Quartet included two of her own works alongside Purcell's Chacony and Schubert's great C major Quintet. As the daughter of one great British composer and the close musical confidant of another, Holst had to work hard to establish her own musical personality. If the 1963 The Fall of the Leaf, a set of three studies for solo cello on a theme from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, seems efficient but anonymous, the String Quintet composed two years before her death is genuinely memorable, with its ever more rarefied textures and nostalgia-laden harmony closer to the music of Gerald Finzi than anyone else. The set of variations with which the quintet ends dissolves into a series of bare solo lines, linking Holst's music to her father's; earlier Anna Dennis had sung Gustav's Four Songs for soprano and violin, exquisite studies in monody, which made the point perfectly."

• • I would very much like to include a bit of the centenary year tribute in the article, so please let me have the citation details.
    • Andrew Clements's review of the celebrations is here (Guardian site) or here (Newsbank). I don't imagine The Guardian will do a Murdoch and slap a paywall on its website, but one never knows, and the Newsbank site should be a safe bet. (Even Times stuff is accessible through it.) – Tim riley (talk) 09:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• • If any of the above is of interest (not in the least miffed if it isn't) I can give you citations if wanted.

That's my lot. Ripping stuff! I couldn't in the end decide if it was Joyce Grenfell or Madame Arcati who came more often to mind, but you've done the dear old thing proud either way! – Tim riley (talk) 11:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Enormous thanks for this comprehensive review, and for the helpful suggestions it contains. If you have any further ideas for improvements, do let me know. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

As promised, but in fact I don't have much. Quite interesting. Made a few changes hands-on, you might want to double check them.

Schooling

• "she joined the kindergarten class at the Froebel Institute, where she spent five years" Five years in kindergarten?
• "three instrumental pieces and some Christmas carol tunes—which she numbered as Ops 1, 2, 3 and 4" I see a mathematical problem here. Four from the opus category, less three instrumental pieces, leaves one, which clashes oddly with "some Christmas carol tunes".

• The instrumental pieces were her ops 1, 3 and 4, the carol tunes were her op. 2 Brianboulton (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• "étude" An appropriate link or pipe perhaps.

Royal etc.

• "EFDS" undefined
• "was scheduled to be played at the college's end-of-year concert in July" this phrasing to my ear suggests this did not in fact take place. If it did, suggest it be phrased more definitely.

European etc.

• The date in the section title does not match the date immediately below. It seems a bit inconsistent with same.
• "EDFS" any relation to the "EFDS"?

Music

• "However, for long periods in her career Imogen barely composed at all." I would delete "in her career" as unneeded.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

• On the last point, I feel the words are necessary (I've changed it to "in her subsequent career"). Otherwise, except as noted I have adopted your suggestions. Many thanks for the review. Brianboulton (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Sarastro

First set of comments from me:

• ”tells of "compertishions, and ripping prizes, and strawberries and cream for tea””: Is it worth a [sic] here, or however we are supposed to do it on WP, to avoid some person thinking that it is a spelling mistake?
• ”Imogen's SPGS years were generally happy and successful”: It’s probably worth giving this abbreviation on the school’s first mention
• ”when she began to develop phlebitis in her left arm”: Could this be linked?
• ”she played a Chopin étude and the first performance of Gustav Holst's Toccata”: Are there any links here? I think at least Chopin should be linked.

• Chopin duly linked. Ther is no link for the Holst Toccata. Brianboulton (talk) 14:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• ”while otherwise occupying herself with EFDS activities”: We haven’t given this abbreviation yet, and it baffled me for a moment until I found what it was.
• ”She concluded that "the Italians are a nation of singers...But music is a different language in that part of the world”: Should we not have spaces around the ellipsis?
• ”but she produced two recorder trios–the Offley and Deddington suites, and made numerous arrangements for female voices of carols and traditional songs”: Something is off with the punctuation here as we have a dash (and I think it should be an emdash?) and a comma surrounding the names of the trios.

Up to the end of "War: travelling for CEMA".Sarastro1 (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments – all dealt wth thus far. Brianboulton (talk) 14:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Remaining comments:

• In the second paragraph of the "Assistant to Britten" section, is there any way to reduce the number of "scores"?

• Reduced ftom 3 to 2

• "The latter work caused ill-feelings by ignoring key figures": Whose were the ill-feelings? Could possibly be a few people.

• Now clarified

I can find little wrong with this article, and it does its job very well. On the use of "Imogen" throughout, I can't say that I'm a huge fan of it, but I can't really see an alternative that is not convoluted, and I think you have chosen the best option here. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your review – all points sorted now I think. Brianboulton (talk) 14:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Cliftonian

Being a total Philistine I thought the only Holst was Gustav. So this should be interesting.

Lead

• We give a pronounciation guide for "Holst" in GH's article, why not here too?

• The name is pronounced as spelt, so I see no need for the IPA hieroglyphic. It was added recently to the Gustav article by an enthusiast for these things, but I have deleted it.

• Why not date the photograph ("Holst in 1974" or similar)?
• Since we don't mention the acronyms again in the lead I would take them out and only use them in the body; in the lead they are not attractive. Or are these organisations better known by their initials? Please excuse my ignorance of such things.

• This is an excellent suggestion which I'm delighted to adopt.

• Prose all looks very good

Childhood and education

• This is really very good
• Perhaps wikilink Daily Telegraph

Freelance

• —

Dartington

• He had in mind a music course, "the sort of thing that your father did in the old days at Morley College", comma here should be a full stop

Aldeburgh

• "Pears, who had seen Imogen in action" oh my

Late career

• perhaps wikilink the Queen Mum

Illness, death, tributes

• —

Honours

• —

Music

• "young British women composers–" endash here should be an emdash
• " "a real composer" ," unnecessary space here

Writings

• "Imogen Holst also wrote numerous articles, pamphlets, essays, introductions and programme notes during the period 1935–1984." I'm sure this is true but it isn't cited.

Overall looks very, very good indeed and I enjoyed reading this, though I feel rather ill-qualified to comment too much on the content itself. I think referring to her throughout as Imogen works fine and is the best way of handling this. Certainly had we switched to calling her Holst halfway through I would have found it quite jarring as the Holst I think of when I read the name is Gustav. I hope this is helpful Brian, I'm sorry I didn't find too much to pick out but perhaps this just shows how good the article is. Keep well and have a great weekend. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:40, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the review, most helpful. Except as noted, I have dealt with the points that you raise. Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Stfg

Considering how much she did for others, it's great to see an article that does proper justice to Imogen. Thanks for advancing this, Brian. I've made a number of tweaks; please revert any you dislike. Comments:

• Schooling para 4: "she gave a performance on the piano of a Bach Prelude and Fugue which was warmly praised by Jane Joseph" reads as if JJ praised the Prelude and Fugue rather than the performance. Perhaps instead: "she performed a Bach Prelude and Fugue on the piano, for which Jane Joseph praised her warmly, writing ..."?
• Schooling end: can we say which Chopin étude she played? (If E major it can only be Op. 10 #3).

• Yes, that's the one – I have adjusted the link. Brianboulton (talk) 21:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• Royal College of Music: Why is "Third Orchestra" in quotes?
• Royal College of Music para 2: "She made her first excursions abroad:" feels a bit chatty to me. Just dive in?
• European travels, 1930–31: She concluded that "the Italians are a nation of singers ... But music is a different language in that part of the world". Presenting it like this makes it look like one connected thought embodying a contrast between nation of singers and music being a different language there. It seems strange -- is that what she meant? Otherwise it might be less confusing as She concluded that "the Italians are a nation of singers" and that "music is a different language in that part of the world". Also, the second part of this quote could be very informative about her musical thinking; did she say in what way "music is a different language" there?

• The full quotation is: "...the Italians are a nation of singers. In the markets they sell their vegetables in impassioned cadenzas, and they encourage their hard-worked donkeys to climb uphill by crooning chromatic scale-passages to them, while down in Sicily one can often hear folk-songs in the evenings, when the doors of the cottages are open. But music is a different language in that part of the world". This indicates that the two bookend thoughts that I have presented are indeed part of a single observation, so I think the present format is OK. I don't think she intended this comment as any indication of her own musical thinking. Brianboulton (talk) 21:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• War: travelling for CEMA para 3: CEMA provided little practical support; thus, according to her friend Ursula Vaughan Williams, Imogen's organisational talents "developed brilliantly". -- The link with "thus" feels strange to me. How about With little practical support from CEMA, Imogen's organisational talents, according to her friend Ursula Vaughan Williams, "developed brilliantly".?
• Dartington para 1: "Beginning in 1943, Imogen established a one-year course, initially designed to train young women to organize amateur orchestras, and musical events in rural communities." Which is the case: (a) Imogen established a one-year course and musical events in rural communities; or (b) the course would train young women to organise amateur orchestras and musical events in rural communities? If you mean (b), the comma after "orchestras" needs to disappear.
• Dartington para 2: "In 1943 she completed a Serenade for flute, viola and bassoon, a Suite for String Orchestra, and a choral work, Three Psalms, all of which were performed at a Wigmore Hall concert on 14 June 1943 devoted to her music." This may trip the reader up, as it can be read as all three psalms or all these works. A possibility: "... Three Psalms. All these works were performed ..."
• Dartington para 3: "In 1948 she began work on a companion volume to her 1938 Holst biography, a critical study of her father's music." can read as if the biography is the critical study. I suspect you may mean: "In 1948 she began work on a critical study of her father's music, a companion volume to her 1938 Holst biography."

Thanks for these comments and prose tweaks. Except as noted above I have adopted your suggested amendments. Brianboulton (talk) 21:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Why "Speech Day" to WL?

Why is the text "Speech Day" (late in July 1925) pipe-linked to the disambiguation page WL? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Bungling on my part. I've changed the text. Brianboulton (talk) 19:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)