Wikipedia:Peer review/Education in the United States/archive2

Education in the United States

I have watched this article for several months now and it has grown and improved amazingly. Half of the current article was once POV bullets. It has survived POV crises and I think it can survive them in the future as well, even though it is by nature controversial. However, imput is always appreciated and since I would like to eventually make it a Feautured Article, this is obviously the first step.--naryathegreat | (talk) 23:21, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

One point I'd like to see explored is the US college admissions system. I know from a bit of knowledge that it is based on a lot more than just grades, where in Australia you need to get a certain score at school to get into certain courses. In the US, you need a certain SAT to get into a college, and then you can study whatever you like (right?). Some info on why this system is used, and why weight is placed on extra-curricualr activity like sport and the Arts. Also, a reference is made in the "History" section to a History of education in the United States article that doesn't exist. Is it being created, or is this just a dead link? Harro5 00:33, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I think maybe we could expand on the admissions tests, but there is no set score on any test required. The point made in the article is that American education is not very standardized, which is why extra curricular activities are important. Colleges want to see students involved outside the classrooms, a positive note in a sea confusion.--naryathegreat | (talk) 22:50, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Previously, colleges and universities placed great emphasis on SAT/ACT scores and high grades for admission; the high school valedictorian was almost guaranteed admission to all but the most selective schools. This "intellectual model" focused on students who offered the strongest academic credentials, often without taking into account the ability of the student to exist in a community. The old stereotype (which in my experience was not particularly inaccurate) portrays intellectual students as eschewing any social-skill enhancing activities (high school clubs, sports, musical ensembles, etc.) in favor of uninterupted study.

However, as colleges and universities have moved towards a more community-centered model, the "well-rounded" student has gained the upper hand. These students may not present overwhealming credentials (straight-A's from all four years of high school and 1500+ (out of 1600) SAT scores), but present widespread interest in community projects, sporting events, and other extracurricular activities that indicate that a student is well grounded and able to function within a community. My experience is that universities are more interested in students who possess an adult attitude (demonstrated through broad interests) and the ability to peacefully co-exist with students, faculty, and staff in the university community. -- Essjay · Talk 11:23, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

A couple of things I don't see addressed here. The first is the issue of the long summer vacation in the U.S. schools. I could be wrong, but I believe it's about twice as long as in, say, England. Over 12 years that adds up to nearly the equivalent of a full year of lost schooling. (I think it's related to an old requirement for school children to be able to help out during the harvest season.) Also I believe that U.S. starts education a year later than in England. (I had to skip a year when we moved to the U.S.) So by the time you graduate, you're up to two years behind. Perhaps somebody else could confirm this? — RJH 16:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's a good point, I'll add summer vacation; however, it already states when students begin schooling and I don't see any point comparing this to when students begin in every other country. People can deduce that themselves.--naryathegreat | (talk) 02:07, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, unfortunately I have to disagree. The point of an encyclopedia is to inform, not to create a puzzle in deductive reasoning. If the summer vacation in the U.S. differs substantially from most other countries, that's a notable element that is specific to that education system. A student in the U.S. is probably unaware of the difference and would likely never check. — RJH 15:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It strikes me that several things are missing from the "how-far-are-we-behind" mathematics. (Please forgive me, much of this is off the top of my head, from informal discussions with colleagues.)

1. First, some countries have a practice of giving students one afternoon off per week (I seem to remember that France offers Wednesday afternoon off, but I cannot recall the source of that information), which accounts for a significant amount of time over the course of a school year.
2. Some countries have extended lunch times (U.S. children typically have between 20-30 mins for lunch; other countries offer upwards of an hour. I seem to remember a discussion of two hour lunch periods in some country; the idea was for students to go home for lunch.)
3. Also, there are additional public holidays in some countries (most U.S. schools have less than ten public holidays that are celebrated with a day off school (Labor Day, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving Day & the following Friday, Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, Election Day, and one or two "inservice" days for teacher traning). (I seem to remember the French practice of "faire le pont" where if a holiday falls on Tuesday or Thursday, the Monday before or Friday after is taken as a holiday as well; this only occurs in the US with Thanksgiving.)
4. I am not familiar with the length or frequency of term breaks in other countries, but U.S. students typically receive two weeks for Christmas holiday and one week in the spring in addition to the June-August summer vacation (and many schools are moving thier schedules later into June and earlier into August). (Secondary education in France suggests a September to mid-June schedule, a time period that would equate closely to the US system.)
5. I am also not familiar with start/end times in other countries, but my experience has been that most U.S. schools begin between 7:00 and 7:45AM, and end between 2:30 and 3:30 PM; schools that offer breaks between classes usually offer 5-7 mins. If other countries begin later in the morning, or end earlier in the afternoon, or offer longer breaks, this time will add up as well. (Education in Germany suggests an 8:00AM-1:30PM day, easily two hours shorter than the standard US school day, with 5-20 min breaks during the day; that's potentially 14 hours less per week.)

It strikes me that the potential is available for a significant amount of time off from school because of the differing systems; I don't believe the claim that U.S. children receive two years less schooling is accurate. If you factor in days off, afternoons off, different start/end times, extended/additional breaks, double or triple lunch times, etc. there is the possiblity that the systems may be very similar in actual time spent in the classroom. -- Essjay · Talk 11:23, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I must say that there simply isn't enough reason to ramble on about the summer vacation thing for much space. It is briefly discussed here, but I don't think we need to discuss the comparison to breaks in other countries in any detail (there's currently a sentence) because this article is about Education in the United States. If somebody wanted to write Summer break (education) or the like go ahead, but this article really doesn't seem to be the place.--naryathegreat | (talk) 02:32, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

I agree entirely that there is no need for an extensive analysis of school breaks, I was simply responding to the request above: "So by the time you graduate, you're up to two years behind. Perhaps somebody else could confirm this?" (emphasis added). -- Essjay · Talk 03:18, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

I would like to see inline cites when statistics are quoted, I think its very important that statistics are verifiable. Things that are completely absent include vocational education and adult education (teaching adults literacy and numeracy etc). There is a brief discussion of gifted education but no equivalent section on special education. Where do community colleges fit in in the scheme of things?--nixie 11:44, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I never thought of those before, with the exception of community colleges, which is discussed in the following excerpt:

Some students choose to attend a "community college" for two years prior to further study at a college or university. A community college is run by the local municipality, usually the county. Though rarely handing out actual degrees, community colleges may award an Associate of Arts (AA) degree after two years. Those seeking to continue their education must transfer to a four-year college or university (after applying through the same admission processes as normal freshmen, see articulation). Some community colleges have automatic enrollment agreements with a local four-year college, where the community college provides the first 2 years of study and the four-year university provides the 3rd and 4th year of study, all on one campus. For example, the University of Houston System has partnered with community colleges in neighboring cities to provide bachelor's and master's degrees in cities that are only served by community colleges. The community college awards the associate's degree and the university awards the bachelor's and master's degrees.

As you can see, over 3/4 of the undergraduate study section concern community colleges. I personally think this is enough discussion (I'm actually pretty sure you just missed it). Also, I don't feel that the gifted discussion is brief. As for vocational education, that is a hard topic to cover. And adult education is worth a mention. I added a section over special education, see what you think.--naryathegreat | (talk) 01:47, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

As nixie suggested, the number one problem with this article is that there are no citations. Statements like "a majority of Americans approve of teaching evolution" should have citations to back up their claims. Without these citations the statements cannot be trusted. The Kurt Cobain article provides a good example of how to do citations. Without citations this article will never become a feature article. Pictures may also benefit the article if it is to obtain feature article status. Cedars 03:57, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the citations and I added some. Because the Manual of Style identifies numerical and plain links as bad style, they have short reference names. Please look at these and point out locations where others should be added (or you could even add them yourself ;-) --naryathegreat | (talk) 05:16, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

I've added a list of things that I think need clarification and sources to the talk page of the article. I think you can safely remove the terminology section from the article, no one will question your use of American English. For section 7 you can probably remove United States from the section headings since the article is clearly about education in the United States.--nixie 04:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've also added a list. Good work on the article so far. Cedars 08:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The section comparing the merits of public and private secondary schools seems a bit slanted. I removed one claim that was misleading, namely, that most public schools can only afford teachers with bachelor's or associate's degrees. (If that's true, it's even more true of private schools; public school teachers are more likely than private school teachers to have master's degrees.) Other claims in this section need to be either removed or backed up with sources and statistics. For instance, "Most public K-12 schools are moderately underfunded" is a controversial claim. What's the evidence for this? How does average spending per student at public schools compare with average spending per student at private schools? Empiricallyrob 4 July 2005 01:24 (UTC)