Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was Delete - note, Flow deletion of these pages is currently broken, however WMF staff has already agreed to delete this Flow as well. The deletion action was performed, so any buggy attributions may be clear now. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:29, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test[edit]

Flow isn't ready for deployment yet, and, even if it were, should not be deployed without an enabling RFC on English Wikipedia. The Teahouse is a particularly bad place for it, as it would expose newcomers to a discussion environment that is not in use anywhere else (and is unlikely to be embraced anywhere else in the future). Those users are guaranteed to be confused when exposed to genuine processes. Note that this will be difficult to uproot, as Flow is so grossly incompatible with our existing processes that I couldn't get the MFD notice to link properly.—Kww(talk) 16:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This test page was requested by some of the Teahouse creators, and supported by some editors as a test location for developing teahouse-specific gadgets when it was discussed in June. There are no plans to deploy Flow on any further Enwiki pages. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, this explanation was inaccurate. Please see Wikipedia_talk:Flow#Please correct your mistake for details. The Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test page will be deleted, sometime this week. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 00:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with everything you said in that nomination, Kww, but I'm not sure that adds up to requiring deletion of the page. The page isn't, and hasn't been, linked from any page in the Teahouse (other than the talk page, of course, which is not new-user-facing), so newbies aren't getting exposed to it. Granted, I'm not really sure what purpose the page does serve, especially given that the header when I first looked at it was the {{flow-enabled}} template, which says that the page is not for testing. But that was changed not too long after the page was created. If we still want to delete it, that's fine, since there doesn't seem to be all that compelling a reason to keep it, but we shouldn't delete it under the pretense that it's been deployed to the live Teahouse, because for all intents and purposes, it hasn't. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, this is a limited test page. Nobody is arguing for a full deployment to the Teahouse at this time. It can be moved to a more suitable location if the title is confusing.--Erik Moeller (WMF) (talk) 17:57, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- There already are test pages, here and at mediawiki. No argument has been presented why another test page, under the Teahouse which explicitly rejected using Flow as it stands, is wanted or needed. There is no need to "move" this (something which we can't do anyway), just create more test pages at mediawiki if you want those. Fram (talk) 09:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This should be moved to Meta. And free of charge, here's a quote for future reference: "The Flow rollout (if it happens) has the potential of being three times more disruptive than the Visual Editor rollout was." Carrite (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In agreement with Writ Keeper. The space is clearly designated for testing purposes for those who are interested in doing so rather than any replacement or rollout that would impose it on new editors. Many of us are aware that Flow is not a finished product, and as such, it's probably helpful to get feedback and bug reports from the people who might benefit from this system when it is ready, which is how its purpose was contextualized by DannyH (WMF). I think an important consideration is whether there are editors who are interested in testing it there, and if that's not the case, it's not very useful to have a testing space. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete without prejudice to instead moving/recreating elsewhere, at a different non-Teahouse title and/or on another project; per Erik and Carrite's suggestions. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move to a location not related to the Teahouse. If that is not possible, Delete. There appears to be no one affiliated with the Teahouse who thinks it's a good idea. If that changes, it might be recreated, provided that Delete/Undelete works properly on Flow pages. ("View deleted" for Admins and "View hidden" for other users doesn't seem to be implemented.) It should be noted that neither "Move" nor "Delete" can be implemented without consent of the developers, without a CSS hack. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:12, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Probably move. I know next to nothing about flow. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Test it The page is meant for testing so we should test it. The nominator seems to have learnt something by trying to MfD it and it would also be illuminating to try moving or deleting it to see what happens. If the Teahouse doesn't want it, then I have no objection to it or other test pages being put in the name space of another project. One appropriate place to have such test pages would be in the WP:TEST namespace, which is explicitly designed for such experiments. Andrew (talk) 07:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and Quiddity, seriously? The discussion you linked to makes it clear that the Teahouse people did not want Flow, so I don't see how you still dare to use this as justification for it. We already have three pages at enwiki where people can play with Flow, and testing this should in general happen at mediawiki. We have already given them a very long list of major bugs and deficiencies, so it's not as if they have no work left or can possibly believe that this is ready for a further rollout. Finally, no more pages should be created as long as the full set of admin possibilities to deal with it aren't available. Fram (talk) 08:55, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete without prejudice and move somewhere far from any newbies, where it can do no harm. KonveyorBelt 15:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Konveyor Belt: What makes you think newbies will even see the page in question? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Reminds me of some chat forum, if WP were to be edited entirely on mobile devices then Flow would at least look fine. Wikipedia is one big tree, the site itself represents the trunk and the community makes up the branches... The WMF holds the Axe. --Acetotyce (talk) 17:31, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Please don't use new users to test things. If you must test this on Wikipedia please find a place where there is a consensus to let you test it there. As a side note that really looks like a terrible departure from our current talk page system. Why do we need to fix things that are not broken? Chillum 17:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Chillum: What makes you think new users will even see the page in question? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What purpose would it have to be under the Teahouse prefix if not to try it out on new users? I assumed it was to get traffic. Chillum 20:27, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- A reasonable assumption, but in this case it's incorrect; the page was apparently intended to allow Teahouse hosts to test Flow, develop gadgets for it, and offer more specific feedback. Again, I don't have anything against a decision to delete here, but I wish it wouldn't be made under assumptions that this page is going to receive newbie traffic. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it, or move it to Wikipedia:Sandbox/Flow test or similar and lock it. And please no more testing software on English Wikipedia unless requested. This is a production system. Please create test sites, or use https://test.wikipedia.org is for things like this. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 03:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. We have more than enough Flow test pages already. —Wasell^(T) 08:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.