Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of presidents of the National Rifle Association/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:28, 2 March 2021 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of presidents of the National Rifle Association[edit]

List of presidents of the National Rifle Association (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 03:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because it barely missed out on becoming a featured list after I nominated it last year. Sadly, real life obligations got in the way of that for me.
Additionally, Sdkb somewhat recently contributed some improvements that would have addressed some of the concerns raised in the last discussion.
Cheers, –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 03:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:59, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
;Drive-by comment
  • I will have a proper look later, but a couple of things in paragraph 2 jump out at me: "Throughout its history, presidents have served purposes and effects ranging from providing the NRA greater legitimacy to provoking outrage and condemnation" - as written this implies that the purpose of the president at times has been wholly or partially to provoke outrage and condemnation. This seems highly unlikely to me. Also, I can kinda see the point of mentioning Heston's comment about taking away his gun, but is the fact that Porter happened to once say something controversial about Barack Obama relevant to this article? If Aaron Boone said something controversial about Joe Biden (I have no idea if this is likely as I have no idea of his political views, I was just making up an example), I wouldn't expect it to be added to the lead of List of New York Yankees managers, because it's not relevant........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: That came up last time, the statement has been watered down rather heavily going from:
The choice for president has been used at various times to provide the organization greater legitimacy[6][7] to aid in maintaining the political status quo.
To:
Throughout its history, Presidents have served purposes ranging from providing the NRA greater legitimacy[6][7] to intentionally provoking outrage and condemnation.
To now:
Throughout its history, presidents have served purposes and effects ranging from providing the NRA greater legitimacy[7][8] to provoking outrage and condemnation.
I am rather happy with the statement as it currently stands since I added the phrase "and effects" in there to remove some doubt that the NRA president intentionally was chosen to provoke outrage. Would you still suggest a rephrasing? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 16:06, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd break it into two parts: "Throughout its history, the role of the president has served purposes ranging from providing the NRA greater legitimacy to [something]; holders of the office have at times intentionally provoked outrage and condemnation"....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to have a good think on that. Someone last time objected to the article saying, in Wikipedia's voice, that the NRA intentionally provoked outrage with its choice of president. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 23:58, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think ChrisTheDude is on to something here. Role/purpose of the organization president could include things like providing legitimacy, focusing on legislative or lobbying strength, increasing fundraising, increasing organizational visibility, or attacking perceived political opponents of the organization. Intentionally provoking outrage and condemnation are other things they do that might be related to those things, and some examples of intentional provocation actions could be cited as a separate sentence more readily. IHateAccounts (talk) 00:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would have to agree with Chris as well. ~ HAL333 04:04, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Okay, since no one has commented to object, I have updated the passage per the rough consensus here. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Couple of other comments on the lead and the images
  • "as of 2019, NRA presidents are chosen by the board of directors" - as we are nearly into 2021, this could do with updating
  • "Those who have held the position include former United States president Ulysses S. Grant, Harlon Carter, American Football League commissioner Joe Foss, and David Keene." - seems odd to list the profession/main claim to fame of two people but not the other two, especially since the "other two" are (to me at least) the least famous of the four, so some context as to who they are/were would be useful.......
  • The photo caption "Retired Marine officer "Red Mike" Edson (2006)" implies that the picture was taken in 2006, but that clearly can't have been the case as by that year Edson had been dead for over 50 years. So why is that year there.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: Fixed the year, and added descriptive titles to other people in the liss. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:51, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Another comment; if there is a good source on it, it would probably be WP:DUE to mention changes in the type or behavior of presidents following the Revolt at Cincinnati. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:42, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@IHateAccounts: I probably could find more info regarding how the role of the EVP has changed since the Cincinnati Revolt than the president. That's mostly because the focus of the Revolt was on how the Executive Vice President was selected (by rank-and-file vs the board of directors) and who held it (a partisan or the old guard). –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Why are NRA presidents now chosen by the board of directors?
    • No clue because no source has explained that.
  • There's nothing wrong with it, but I am curious as to why some presidents required four sources while others only needed one.
    • If I had several really solid sources for a given entry, I decided my preference would be to include all of them. However, sometimes it became necessary because not every source has all information on each person.
  • Since the group is based in the US, shouldn't the dates be in American English?
  • Are none of the other NRA presidents notable enough to have their own article?
  • Why's Washington Adjutant General redlinked?
  • Note b doesn't need a period.
    • But can it have one anyways?

That's all that I noticed. ~ HAL333 04:04, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@HAL333: Responded. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:51, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@HAL333, IHateAccounts, and ChrisTheDude: Anything new to add? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 00:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I completely forgot about this FLC. At a quick glance, the statement about James W Porter II slagging off Obama is still there with no context or explanation as to why it's relevant - can you address that? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:24, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: In 2013, it was a much bigger story than you might think.[2][3] (also mentioned: [4][5][6]) That it was included in the Atlantic article several years later as an example of controversial statements from NRA presidents holds a particular amount of weight with me that I think it is pretty WP:DUE. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but you need to give some context within the article to why the quote was relevant to his position as NRA President and not just a random comment he made because he happened to dislike Obama. The ABC News source expands the quote to say that he also said "His entire administration is anti-gun" - adding that to the article will make it clear why the statement is relevant to this list. As it stands, there's no real context as to why the quote is pertinent to this article. Porter's personal views on Obama in and of themselves aren't relevant to this article, but his personal views on Obama in relation to the latter's views on gun control potentially are. Does that make sense? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
An easy work around would be mentioning Obama's NRA rating in a parenthetical phrase. ~ HAL333 03:05, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude and HAL333: Better? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 00:08, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's okay. ~ HAL333 20:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
More comments
  • There are a few sea of blue issues in the table.
    • Removed duplicate links
  • Could you add scope to the name column?
  • I would avoid sources directly produced by the NRA.
    • Out of 109 references, only six are from NRA-owned publications. They are only used in conjunction with another source (generally this one).
      • I would still remove them - it's a primary source. ~ HAL333 19:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • To keep it in line with the others, make the Burnside caption a phrase rather than a sentence.
    • Fixed

That's all. ~ HAL333 05:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@User:HAL333: Responded. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 05:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you also clearly explain the vice presidents? ~ HAL333 19:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @HAL333: Which one? The executive vice president or first/second/third vice presidents? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:45, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly. I have no idea and nor will the reader. Are they also figureheads? Are they selected the same way? For the same purpose? Etc. It may be better just not to mention them, but I don't know. ~ HAL333 19:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @HAL333: They are selected the same way; they are figure-heads, and they are just there to be future presidents. I have reliable sources for the first thing, but not the other claims. Regardless, I don't think it would be that confusing given that many organizations have multiple vice presidents (first vice president, second vice president, executive vice president, etc.) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:02, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MJL: "There have been 65 NRA presidents, serving 67 distinct terms." - I feel like this might be improved noting the two who have served multiple/separated terms? IHateAccounts (talk) 20:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IHateAccounts:  Done –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:02, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from ~ HAL333 05:20, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I am sorry, but until my concerns are addressed, I will not be able to support this FLC. ~ HAL333 03:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
MJL I've looked this article over again - if you can fix the primary reference issue, I'll be able to support this nomination. ~ HAL333 04:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HAL333: I appreciate that! I'll take a look tonight to see if I can fix that. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:33, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HAL333: I hate to have to say this, but I don't think the list would be able to remain comprehensive without the NRA-published references. I removed two of them, but I ran into a few issues. Ref #111 has no comparable independent alternative, and the other uses back up statements that would only otherwise be supported by a single offline source. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:40, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I tried finding some sources myself, but no luck. ~ HAL333 05:20, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I halfheartedly supported last year, but with the changes above I don't see a reason to oppose --Guerillero Parlez Moi 00:55, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • I'd like to see alt text with each image.
    Added
  • "Post-war photograph..." which war?
    Added
  • I think, in general, the image captions could note when the individuals were president of the NRA.
    That feels a little superfluous.. Maybe I could add which number they were instead?
  • On my screen, the images squash the references into three columns, so I would either remove one, or use the {{clear}} template.
    Where should I be placing {{clear}}?
  • References which need a subscription, like the NYT, need url-access=subscription added to the citation template.
    Got most, I think
  • References which are PDFs need format=pdf added to the citation template.
    Updated
  • "two Union veterans " I would just pipe "Union" here, not "two Union veterans" in totality because that's a bit Easter egg.
    Fixed
  • Ahh, then you link Union to Union (American Civil War). why would Union be linked differently?
    Fixed
  • "would become" -> "became"
    Fixed
  • " have served purposes and effects" this is a bit odd, what are you really saying?
    They were meant to do a lot of things.
  • I would link Obama.
    Linked
  • When you say they serve out two one-year terms, e.g. is that how they do "2015–2017", "2013–2015 " etc? I.e. each "Term" shown in the table is actually two "sub-terms"? I'm mildly confused, especially when you say "67 distinct terms " when it looks like a lot of those were made up of "two one-year terms"... You see my confusion?
    You pretty much got it. This is a bit of a confusing thing with the historiography of the NRA. Almost every reliable source I could find says the tradition is that the president serves two one-year terms, and from I can tell that is mostly true. You just have two different people severing additional nonconsecutive terms after their first two were over. Maybe this makes it clearer?
  • Don't use "hash" (#) to represent number, per MOS:HASH.
    Huh, fixed.
  • In a sortable table, linkable items should be linked every time as it's not guaranteed that post-sort the linked item will come first.
    Re-linked
  • "May 16, 1925 along " comma after year.
    Fixed
  • "Irvine C. Porter" is redlinked, but none of the presidents without articles are red-linked. Are they really non-notable? Wouldn't the president of the NRA pass WP:GNG? If so, they should be linked.
    I was told that I had a sea of red before. I would be happy to change this back to having links.

That's all I have on a quick pass. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 08:28, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: responded. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:16, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: Done. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 23:53, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed; promoting. --PresN 02:46, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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