Wikipedia's best work: One of the most complete lists of Simpsons guest stars on the English internet, well organized.
Useful, comprehensive, factually accurate, stable, and well-organised:
Useful: Allows people to view each guest star by the episode they guest starred in.
Comprehensive: Has every creditted guest star in Simpsons history
Factually accurate: Each guest star can be confirmed by watching the episode
Stable: Is updated every time a new guest is announced and every time an episode is aired
Well-organised: Easy to understand format, Seasons > episodes > guests > individual members (if a band)
Uncontroversial: no edit wars or disuptes of any kind
Standards / style manual: Layout is clear and concise
Images: The only problem is that there are no images, and it would be no problem to add images, but I felt that since it is a general list, including just a few of certain guest stars wouldn't make much sense and could disrupt the flow of the list. -- Scorpion0422 21:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support as Nominator -- Scorpion0422 00:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Great work, very informative, complete, although I agree you may need an image, maybe just having one at the top, for example Ricky Gervais. And say "Ricky Gervais as Charles, an example of a guest star." Gran2 08:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Pretty much what Gran2 said. Except more than 1 picture is needed, probably because there are so many pictures you could put on. I would say having a picture of:
Comment. There are no sources for most the list. Episodes should be in quotes and the headings should follow MoS (e.g. "Season one" instead of "Season One"). --Maitch 14:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What should be sourced? All of the statements and future guests have sources. Do you want each and every guest star to have a source, because there's no general source for the episodes list... -- Scorpion0422 18:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The "Season one" etc. titles look terrible. Surely a better route would just be to change them all to numbers "Season 1", like List of The Simpsons episodes? Which is also a featured list. Gran2 17:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support - An excellent, comprehensive and well organised list. Nebuchanezzar 01:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support; however, the title within the lead needs to be bolded. That aside, this obviously meets FL criteria. —Cliff smith 03:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as the list has no sources. -- RuneWelsh | ταλκ 17:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You tell me what needs to be sourced and where I can find these sources and I will add them. The guests from each episode can easily be confirmed by watching the episode plus I have links to several lists of guest stars at the bottom. -- Scorpion0422 17:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Finding what guests have been on the show by watching the epiodes yourself is original research. Although plot does not require references by default, this is a more complicated situation. Sure there is some official episode guide somewhere on the internet, so it wouldn't be too difficult to reference. Michaelas10(Talk) 20:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm the one who made the list and the bulk of the guest stars I got from the two lists that are linked at the bottom. THere is no official FOX list of guest stars on the Internet. And most of the existing lists are incomplete or full of mistakes so I had to use several lists, plus some Wikipedia pages. In can throw on a few more lists at the bottom if thats what you want. -- Scorpion0422 20:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh please. Every single guests star is already sourced, didn't you notice the episode names and production codes next to each guest star?Nebuchanezzar 01:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please mind WP:CIVIL. As Michaelas10 said, that is original research. If there is no reliable source (as Scorpion0422 himself said above) for this list the nomination will fail regardless of how many support votes it gathers. Additionally, the episode screenshots are being used for decoration and not for discussion of the guest stars. These must be removed too. -- RuneWelsh | ταλκ 03:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I never said it was original research. I got all of my information from the three lists that are sourced at the bottom of the page, who got their information from the episodes. Therefore, I have a source and it is not original research (on my part anyway). And what I said was that there is no OFFICIAL source, but the lists from those pages listed are relatively accurate and the information has been confirmed. -- Scorpion0422 03:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Nebuchanezzar and Gran2. --Rubber cat 05:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't really have any objection to this list.. but I'm not sure if it's a featured list. It's good and all, but.. I wouldn't call it great. I think the trivial nature of the information might have a part of this. -- Ned Scott 03:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: There are already some pretty trivial lists out there that are featured. For example, how important are lists of general elections in Canadian provinces? Guest stars are an important aspect of The Simpsons - more than 75% of the episodes feature guest stars and the show has been recognized by the Guiness Book of Records as having more guest stars than any other Primetime TV series. -- Scorpion0422 03:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was impressed by the amount of guest starts. I have some ideas for the formatting that might make it stand out a bit more.. I'll leave a note on the talk page. -- Ned Scott 03:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose due to serious problems with the sources and lack of fair-use rationales for the images.
On the one hand is the claim that the list is effectively self-referencing (each episode is named and coded). This might just be acceptable (I'm not sure) if the episode titles clearly stated "Guest: XXX as YYY". If it didn't identify who the artist was playing (including themselves), then it is OR to identify the artist's character. On the other hand, the main author admitted lifting "the bulk of the guest stars" .. "from the two lists that are linked at the bottom", which are apparently "relatively accurate". The first is IMDB, which is not regarded as a reliable source due to its user-contributed / v. lightly edited nature. The second is Simpson Crazy, who's About page says it was started by three guys, but mostly run by one in his spare time. Bedroom-operated web sites don't count as reliable sources either. Another reference given is The Simpson Archive, which is also fan-maintained. The author claims there is no official guest list (and that most unofficial ones are "incomplete or full of mistakes"). But the first reference is the offical The Simpsons.com site, which does count as a reliable source. This site gives all the info required, but for a vastly reduced subset of the names in this list. Therefore, I could support the list if restricted to just the facts from the (one) reliable source.
The includsion criteria are ill-defined (and tweaked again at the start of Season one). This would be solved if list were based on the offical source.
The unaired episodes section should be removed, perhaps to the talk page.
The ING top 25 is a copyright list (ING's opinions of the best) and as such is a copyvio to reproduce I'm afraid. It needs to go.
The Note1/2 lines use a deprecated template and don't seem to be tied back to anywhere in the list?
There are no fair-use rationales for this list for any of the pictures. Not all editors think such rationales can be supported for lists so you may choose to play safe by removing them. If you feel it must have them, then I would think the only supportable rationale would be for a guest star playing themselves.
Reply: I don't see why such a big deal is being made over sources. There is a link to the official sites episode guide, and each episode page there includes guest stars. Do you want each episode here linked to each episode there? As well, this list is accurate because I used a combination of those lists, plus they can all be confirmed on the official site. The images can be removed no problem, they are mainly there for decoration. But what are you talking about inclusion criteria being ill-defined? Every actor creditted as a guest star is included (except Marcia Wallace because eh's been in a LOT of episodes), and every non-main cast member from the first season is there because they didn't have credited guest stars at that point. As for copyvio, that can also be removed no problem. -- Scorpion0422 18:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Verifiability is a core policy. Listing one good ref amongst the dodgy ones doesn't make it all right. I think over 75% of the names on this list can't be reliably sourced without further research. Linking each episode to the official page using inline-citations/WP:Footnotes and {{cite web}} would be a big and essential improvement. It will really help to show that each episode is well sourced and discourage further unsourced additions (which are always a problem with such lists). I accept that such heavy pruning will seem like a big loss, but this is an encyclopedia that has higher standards than a fan site (esp. for Featured material). You could try to locate other reliable sources. Perhaps there are news articles that discuss a celebrity appearance in an episode? Try a Google search for the episode name and the star name.
The inclusion criteria would be shorter if you just said that the program must have credited the person as a "Guest star". The bit on Marcia Wallace is overlong and the definition of a "signficant role" isn't as objective as ideal. Perhaps just briefly say that although she is credited as a "Guest star", she has appeared in over a hundred episodes and so is not listed here. Series One would seem to be a problem, but the current list includes voice actors who aren't special just because their character didn't become a regular.
I admit, the one source is a bit dodgy, but it is complete, thats why its listed. But IMDB and the Simpsons Archive are both accepted sources and the official site is official. Those are what I used to make this list, so adding more sources would just be overkill. I don't see why this list needs to have a link to the official page beside each episode. The List of episodes of The Simpsons doesn't have a link to the official site next to each page. As for the books, I have 2 of them, so I'll source them. -- Scorpion0422 23:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
CommentThis book and the various sequels contain all the listed guest stars. If anyone has it (I did, but gave it to my sister) then you could reference from there.HornetMike 19:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This would be a great source. The inline-citations recommendation still applies. There's no reason why this list couldn't become featured, but it needs a bit of work yet. Colin°Talk 20:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment For the referencing issue, there really is no issue. Just because we don't format a template for each and every part of the article does not make it unreferenced. There is a certain level of common sense one should use. If we say "X stared in episode Y" then episode Y can be used as a reference, and no further note is really needed. To say this info is unreferenced is just silly. -- Ned Scott 07:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The episodes are a primary source. If the article is relying on them as references, it should be explict about it (so we can distinguish when it is relying on something else as a references, such as a fan site or an official site). Leaving the reader to guess which facts are supported by the episode and which come from elsewhere isn't satisfactory. Secondly, the Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources policy makes it quite clear that such sources should be the exception and can only be used with great care. It appears to be well documented that the Simpsons episodes do not list the full details of the guest stars and their characters in the credits. Therefore speculation (or unreferenced insider knowlege) that a particular yellow cartoon character was voiced by Dustin Hoffman is not allowed just because you can watch the episode and it sounds a bit like him. Colin°Talk 22:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to Dustin Hoffman, it's been confirmed that it was him, and I'll dig up a source for that. And you seem to be forgetting that there is an official source at the bottom of the article. The way you say it, we have no sources whatsoever. Anyway, it's been 15 days since this article was nominated, and the nomination page says a maximum of 10. Is there a particular reason why the article hasn't been promoted or denied FL status? -- Scorpion 22:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Scorpion, you may not promote your own nomination. There are some serious issues being raised here, and without them being fixed, this will most-likely fail. Michaelas10(Talk) 07:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I asked several admins and they said there was nothing that said I couldn't promote it. Besides, it seems to me that I have addressed all of the concerns. The List of Simpsons and South Park episodes do not have a seperate source after every episode, so why shoould this one? -- Scorpion 08:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, they link to episode lists, which provide exactly the same information as written in the list. There are no official "star guest" lists, but you could still use the book provides by HornetMike. Until then, it is original research. Michaelas10(Talk) 08:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Both imdb and snpp are accepted sources. Yes, the official link links to episodes, but those episode pages have guest stars. And if I DID add sources for the books, I would have to look the information on a website, and I've been told only to source books if you actually use them, which I did not. And also, the books are basically extended synopsises of the episodes and only have brief information on guest stars, and some are not even included (ie. Phil Hartman, Frank Welker). I linked every source I used. Those sources are accurate. The list is accurate. Stop creating issues where there are none. -- Scorpion 08:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The issue isn't as cut-and-dry as episode lists. I'm a bit worried about using IMDB as the only source on some of the entries. The more complex the list is the more we should be sure about these things before making it featured. -- Ned Scott 08:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I know that this doesn't count, but I can guarantee that the list is extremely accurate. There are a bunch of fan websites with good (but incomplete) lists that I unfortunately can't source because they aren't official, such as the one included. And yes, imdb does list some guest stars (ie. Catherine O'Hara, Freddy Krieger) who never guest starred, but that's why the SNPP list is included. SNPP has been accepted as an accurate source on The Simpsons and List of The Simpsons episodes, both of which are GA or higher. And The Fox link is an official source, and yes, page viewers will have to visit individual pages, but at least there is an official source. -- Scorpion 08:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's also important to note that the official source is incomplete and is missing several guest stars who played a minor role in the episode they appeared in. -- Scorpion 08:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
