Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Starfleet starships ordered by class

List of Starfleet starships ordered by class[edit]

I think the list is finaly well sourced and informative. As one of the co-contributors to the list, though a very good chunk of the credit goes to User:EEMeltonIV for his tireless work in adding proper citations, I feel it is adequately complete. --Cat out 22:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~. First impressions are that it is well laid out, very comprehensive and detailed, clearly the result of a lot of effort and apparently thoroughly referenced. Then I notice all the references are Wikipedia articles. What a shame. Colin°^Talk 08:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No. The referances are the TV episodes. Source is the primary source, show itself. Not wikipedia. --Cat out 10:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So if I sat down to watch "Power Play", I could clearly note that the USS Essex is a Daedalus class ship, with registry NCC-173 and that it was damaged and crashed on Mab-Bu VI? As someone who doesn't follow this series, would I be able to work all this out, given I don't know what a Daedalus class ship looks like or what Mab-Bu VI is? Are you relying on other sources for some of this info? Colin°^Talk 12:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly you need to understand several issues on how this list was compiled. It sometimes takes a significant effort to identify just a single one of these entries.

On wikipedia I can use primary and secondary sources for info however primary sources are prefered. Information on sources may not always be avalible in a "conviniant" manner.

You are welcome to watch all 29 seasons and 10 movies frame by frame and dialouge by dialouge to verify the article. I believe that is too demanding of a task for a single individual so a collective effort would be more prudent and that's precisely what happened here.

You must understand that some of the information presented here may have appeared only for a few frames or mentioned in dialouge even if a good protion of the episode had taken inside the ship. You will need to identify that the ship that feried Dukat as Nebula class with one look since we only see the outside of the ship (which displays the registery and ship name) for a few seconds.

If you do not know how a Daedalus class ship looks like (actualy you cant since I do not believe it was ever shown on screen), you shouldn't be trying to verify that. The ship on that spesific episode was already destroyed over 200 years ago by the time enterprise arrived and that class had been out of service for 173 years according to Data on that episode. Chronologicaly that would be about 7 decades prior to Kirks command of the original enterprise so the ship should not have ever been seen on screen. In a dialuge between Riker, Picard, and Data the ship that crashed has been identified as a "Daedalus class - USS Essex" at the begining of the show. At time index 24:28 Picard inquires the now possessed Troi the designation and crew compliment of the Essex. She responds with "NCC-173, Daedalus class starship, crew compliment 229". While the ship itself is never seen the data presented in the article has been verified.

Please. "Complement" with an "e" and "compliment" with an "i" are two different words. Michael Hardy 02:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A person who knows nothing about Quantum Physics should never attempt to verify the contents of Neutrino which cites entier physics books as its sources.

--Cat out 13:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your detailed reply. Perhaps I didn't phrase my question well, but you seem to have answered my questions. There are problems with relying solely on primary sources and I'm not aware of a preference for them (See WP:RS, definitions). The policy WP:NOR#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources cautions:

"Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely entirely on primary sources... An article or section of an article that relies on primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on entirely primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions". (my italics)

You can see from this why I'm concerned that I can glean the info you list from the TV show and not have to rely on being a Star Trek expert with the "Atlas of Start Trek Starships" open on my lap. The guideline WP:WAF#What's wrong with an in-universe perspective? gives an example about starships that is very appropriate. Are you saying that USS Honshu is identifiable as Nebula class in that episode only if you know what a Nebula class ship looks like? What if there is a variant class that is very similar but with a subtly different underside that you don't see. The episode needs to explicitly state it is a Nebula class (as with the USS Essex example you give) or else you should really give an additional source for that fact, give a source that has an accurate description that one could use to identify the ship. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs here but I'm not yet convinced that all the facts in this list are extractable from the cited episodes without support from other sources/guides. BTW: The neutrino article's physics books are secondary, not primary sources. Colin°^Talk 17:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You do not need a degree in quantum physics or star trek to verify the information. You just need to watch the episodes which can be done by any average adult. It just requires a lot of effort and time to watch all of it for the necesarry info.

No, the episode does not need to explicitly state that it is a nebula class (though I believe it had been identified as one in that particular episode anyways, I am not going to rewatch every star trek episode for the sake of this FLC). A circle is always a circle even when not stated explicitly. An analysis of the original "document" is more than acceptable. We do not require the analysis of the analysis or else primary sources would not be allowed. There is no known variant that remotely looks like the Nebula class starship which has several distinc features such as the inverse neceals and the module (generaly dome-shaped or triangular) suspended above the soucer section linked to the engineering section. Its simple common sense for a person with average knowlege on star trek. You can google for it if you must. I have no intention of further complicating the references section.

In Star Trek only a handful of models were built to minimise costs. Generaly only the text on the soucer section is replaced to create a "new" ship. If you investigate DVD quality still images you can easily read "Enterpirse" on other galaxy class ships. So I know what I dont see in that shot from post production. This is the off universe approach for you.

Yes they are secondary sources, I would prefer more primarly sources. Primary sources are preferable.

From my experience in "Featured list candidates" in general, nothing I say or do will convince you so I might as well stop trying. I am just tired of dealing with same redundent arguments why primary sources are "evil".

--Cat out 19:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a discussion, not a vote that is cast and unchangable. I'm quite prepared to back down or change. I'm just trying to learn and apply Wikipedia guidelines/policy since Featured Lists are supposed to be the best and set an example. If you say the episodes contain all the details then I guess that's enough. It surprises me, that's all. There aren't many TV shows where everything is bl**dy obvious. I've withdrawn my oppose. I must have missed the "How to identify all 50 Star Trek starship classes from a few frames on DVD" lesson at school. Look. I've said already that I'm impressed with the body of the list. You could expand the lead a bit. Best wishes, Colin°^Talk 22:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose while the merge with Other Starfleet ship classes is not resolved. Renata 15:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe a merge would be wise. The original idea was to copy duplicate elements from that article to this one which has been already done. --Cat out 15:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]