Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Oslo T-bane stations/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 21:45, 14 April 2009 [1].

List of Oslo T-bane stations[edit]

Nominator(s): Arsenikk (talk)
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I believe that this list of rapid transit stations in Oslo, Norway, has reached the criteria for FL. If not, I will be more than happy to address any concerns. Arsenikk (talk) 10:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


My first impressions are good, however I do have a few concerns:
  • Stations Avløs, Gjettum, Gjønnes etc. have no icon. The articles for the 3 I mentioned say they are on line 6, so shouldn't they have a or something.
  • I like the icons, and the template provides alt-text so there isn't an WP:Accessibility issue. However currently the column is unsortable, whereas if you used numbers instead it would be sortable. So at the moment that makes them decorative. This can be fixed though by using <span style="display:none">...</span>, see below for an example of how it works.
Station Line Service Opened/closed Usage Distance Grade Ref
Blindern Sognsvann 3, 4, 5 10 October 1934 049894,989 04.04.0 km (2.5 mi) At-grade [1]
Bogerud Østensjø 3 29 October 1967 011021,102 10.210.2 km (6.3 mi) At-grade [2]
Borgen Røa 2, 6 17 November 1912 00934934 03.83.8 km (2.4 mi) At-grade [1]
Brattlikollen Lambertseter 1, 4 28 April 1957 00731731 07.87.8 km (4.8 mi) At-grade [3]
Brynseng Common 1, 2, 3, 4 22 May 1966 033083,308 04.64.6 km (2.9 mi) At-grade [2]
Bøler Østensjø 3 20 July 1958 015741,574 09.29.2 km (5.7 mi) At-grade [4][2]
  • Can you explain what the "Grade" means.
  • Why are some of the distances missing?
  • I'm not sure it is right to compare 2002 and 2007 data in the same table, as any data could easily be mis-interpreted; however I'm prepared to wait and see what others think.
  • Do a double check for typos e.g. "transfer to the natioanl rail network"

Rambo's Revenge (How am I doing?) 11:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your good feedback. I have made the service numbers sortable, gone over for spelling again, and tried to better explain 'grade'. The reason some stations are missing numbers, is that they are temporarily closed for renovation, and therefore not served by any trains until 2011 to 2014. I find it misleading to include numbers on stations currently not served, but if others feel otherwise, I have no problem with including numbers on those stations too. The distances are missing for the Holmenkoll- and Ring Line due to lack of sources. The transport authority has an excellent page for all the other stations, but not for those two lines. Extensive search in other places (including books) has failed to find distance information. As for the dating of ridership, the three stations with 2007-numbers did not exist in 2002, and later ridership numbers have not been published for the other stations. Arsenikk (talk) 14:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe add a note about using 2002 and 2007 data can help alleviate the discrepancy.—Chris! ct 19:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is clearly stated in the text above the list, and I am not sure how else to make it clear. Arsenikk (talk) 21:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, I didn't see that.—Chris! ct 23:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will be away for a fortnight from this weekend, so I'm afraid I won't be around at the end of this review to cap & support it if it reaches my requirements. Also I'm not going to cap/support prematurely because I still have some concerns. I think the grade could still be explained better. For example, what does "built-in" mean, (i.e. what is it built into) and can you provide more details about how that differs from a station that is "at-grade" or "underground". Additionally I don't think the entries "Åsjordet" and "Ø***" should be at the bottom of the table, as I believe we treat them as "A" and "O", and adjust the sorting accordingly using {{sort}}. If you want to keep right aligning the numbers, the distance should be right aligned too (for the reasons you stated below). I'd be tempted to add the icons for the "temporary" closed stations, but I suppose it depends how long "temporary" actually is. I have struck my major concern (which was that icons are not just decorative), and will assume you or other reviewers will catch any typos. This may need a full image review, but the sample I looked at were all okay. Apologies I'm not around to see this review through, but I'm happy the FL directors will disregard any comments of mine they deem irrelevent when it comes to decision time. Rambo's Revenge (How am I doing?) 17:22, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have sorted them out. I will double check it tomorrow when I am not so tired (it is past midnight for me now). Again, thanks for the review and enjoy your break. Arsenikk (talk) 22:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All stations and lines should sort as æ->ae, ø->o and å->a now. Arsenikk (talk) 19:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Chrishomingtang

Comment

  • Instead of using <span style="display:none">...</span>, you can use {{nts}}. But they serve the same purpose
    • Just to clarify I think he is talking about the spans for numbers (e.g. distance and usage), not the ones I just requested you add.
      Feel free to shoot me donw if I'm wrong Chris! Rambo's Revenge (How am I doing?) 19:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • What I meant was you could use {{nts}} instead of adding <span style="display:none">...</span> to reduce the size of the page. But since they serve the same purpose, it is not necessary to make that change.—Chris! ct 23:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I knew that. But I was just pointing out that I requested he add some <span style="display:none">...</span>s earlier in the FLC, and replacing them with {{nts}} wouldn't work because they were placed before template icons, and not numbers. Rambo's Revenge (How am I doing?) 00:08, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Ok, I got what you mean.—Chris! ct 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it possible to highlight transfer stations (within the T-bane system)/terminals, like FL List of Bay Area Rapid Transit stations?
  • align items in Ref column center
  • emdash for empty cells
  • no space needed for symbols and words

—Chris! ct 19:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the constructive feedback. All matters have been seen too. Arsenikk (talk) 21:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've center aligned the emdash for you.—Chris! ct 03:06, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Hassocks5489

Comments – just some quick observations from a rail enthusiast :)

  • Unfortunately in my browser, the table appears below the pictures, creating a large area of whitespace. I suppose the intention is for them to appear in a strip down the right-hand side of the table, like in List of railway stations in Merseyside? Struck comment. I checked my browser settings, and the screen resolution was much lower than it should have been. A modest increase makes the pics display perfectly. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 21:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the station Egne hjem, is "hjem" meant to have a lower-case "H"? The article title does, but its first line shows "Egne Hjem" and a Google search returns more results with a capital letter. (For Carl Berners plass and Valkyrie plass stations, the articles and Norwegian internet sources consistently use lower-case, so that's fine).
  • The final sentence of the lead looks a little awkward.
  • Suggest "the number of average boarding passengers in 2001 and 2002" → "the average daily number of boarding passengers in 2001 and 2002" (just to make it clear that the figures in the table are daily values; especially because on British railway station articles/lists, annual figures are used, and people who are used to those lists might be expecting annual figures here).
  • If it doesn't make the prose too awkward, it might be useful to add a few words on why the distances are measured from Stortinget.
  • Høyenhall's usage figure is formatted incorrectly.

Overall, a good list with well-chosen images. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 21:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments. Concerning the images, I honestly do not know how to handle it. All other station-list FLs use them as such, but users with sufficiently low resolution and the image size set too high will undoubtedly have the problem you have described. Concerning capitalization: In Norwegian, only the first word of a proper noun fragment is capitalized, unless it is a place or person name. Therefore, stations such as Egne hjem (own homes), Huseby skole (Huseby School), Ullevål stadion (Ullevål Stadium) and Carl Berners plass (Carl Berner's Square, where Carl Berner is the name of a person) are all not capitalized, except for the first word, in Norwegian. While I would normally capitalize such names in English, I feel being true to the actual station names is important. If you take a look at the schedule (which is a bit difficult now that the station is closed, but "fortunetly", Ruter has not yet updates its tram and rail maps), Egne hjem is not capitalized. I agree that many sources (incorrectly) capitalize Egne hjem. Just because many other people are wrong, does not make it a good idea for us to be wrong too, when the official sources are unambigous. I have copyedited the Egne hjem article to reflect this. Otherwise, I have acted upon your feedback. Arsenikk (talk) 22:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco
Lead
  • The system is municipally-owned by Kollektivtransportproduksjon,[1] and operated by the subsidiary Oslo T-banedrift on contract with Ruter. -- wouldn't it be in contract?
  • IDK, but to me the lead lacks, can a bit more be given to summarize the list? The most usage, distance, etc.
Table
  • All content needs to be aligned either to the right or the left, not both.
  • I find a key needy to explain what each service means IMO.
References
  • The publisher to "Oslo-banedrift" needs to come in ref 3 not 5, or you need to link them all or remove the links.--Best, ₮RUCӨ 02:08, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review. I have acted upon everything except the alignment, where I would like to ask the advice of more experienced listmakers: It seems to me that readability is enhanced for dates and usage due to the right-alignment. However, station and line names are better left-aligned. Would it be possible to allow the latter two (station and line) to be left-aligned, and then the rest (date, usage, distance and grade) since 'service' functions as a visual seperator? I would have though this had given optimal readability. However, if others disagree, I will be more than happy to left-align everything. Arsenikk (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I don't see the lead expanded any further. In addition, I also don't see the explanation of the services. I don't see how its enhanced, its a bit distracting actually.--Best, ₮RUCӨ 20:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, this edit added the following text, which addresses four of the five points: "The most used station is Jernbanetorget, that connects to Oslo Central Station. It is closely followed by Majorstuen, a main transfer station between lines west of the city center and to several lines of the Oslo Tramway, and Nationaltheatret, that is shared with the mainline Drammen Line and located in the heart of the city center. All three are on the Common Tunnel. The least used station is Lillevann, that serves the recreational area Nordmarka. (...) Located 17.3 kilometers (10.7 mi) from the city center, Kolsås is the furthest away. The system is served by eight lines that operate as branched from the Common Tunnel—a shared section that runs 4.8 kilometers (3.0 mi) through the city center. In additional, the Ring Line operates in a loop to areas north of the city center. There are six train services, numbered 1 through 6, that operate to one branch at each end of the city, or to the Ring Line." Arsenikk (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh okay I see, I apologize. But what does service mean in this context? That's what I don't understand, is it just like the name of the lines of trains?--Best, ₮RUCӨ 21:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
'Service' simply means the number on the trains. For historical reasons, each branch of the system is named (unlike most metros, where the through line has its name). Therefor there is both a line name and a line number—that are not the same. The numbers on the train change perhaps each twenty years, the last one being in 2006 with the opening of the Ring Line). I just did a copyedit, and will look at the prose again in tomorrow when I am more awake. Hopefully I can find a eloquent way of stating it now that you have pinpointed what is unclear. Arsenikk (talk) 22:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, once that is done you can notify me or I'll come by to check this FLC out again.--Best, TRUCO 22:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have elaborated more to try to explain the difference between line and service. Please tell me if it is not accurate enoughs. I realize that Oslo has a different naming and numbering approach than many other cities, where a number covers multiple lines, and a line may be served by several numbers. Arsenikk (talk) 19:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- Previous issues resolved to meet WP:WIAFL. Interesting piece of work.--Truco 21:02, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • "Oslo T-bane is the rapid transit serving Oslo" "serving"-->that serves
  • You link two Norwegian cities in the first sentence, no need to link Norway, too.
  • "municipally-owned" -ly adverbs should not have hyphens.
  • "that connects with Oslo Central Station" "that"-->which
  • "that is located in the heart of the city center"-->which is in the heart of the city center
  • "has direct transfer to trains " "has"-->provides (stronger verb)
  • "most used" and "least used" should be hyphenated when used as adjectives.
  • "The system is served by eight lines that operate as branched from the Common Tunnel" What do you mean by "as branched"?
  • "In additional" Delete this phrase.
  • "in a loop to areas north of the city center" "to"-->in
  • "There are six train services, numbered 1 through 6, that each operate from one branch "-->Six train services, numbered 1 through 6, each operate from one branch
  • "that opened as a "-->which opened as a (you make this mistake throughout the text, read up on which vs. that.
  • "The Røa Line followed as a branch in 1912"-->The Røa Line was the next to open as a branch, in 1912
  • "after the conversion of the 1957 Lambertseter Line to metro standard. " What is "metro standard"?
  • "all trains terminated at Stortinget"
  • "and has since then been the basis for the kilometer markers. "-->which has since then been the basis for the kilometer markers.
  • "that connects the eastern and western "-->which connects the eastern and western
  • "Further details are available in the articles on each station." Really not necessary, self-references like this are not very professional anyway. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the comments—I have acted accordingly. I especially appreciated you pointing out the systemaic error I made, since I was not aware that this even was an issue. I presume that your comments about the "branched" was referring to the typo (it is now "branches") and not to you commenting that the word "branch" not being understood by readers. Arsenikk (talk) 19:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which connects with Oslo Central Station" What does "connects with" mean here. Are the two stations physically joined, or does one provdie a transfer to another?
  • "that operates to its end." Not understanding what "end" means. Maybe "terminus"?
  • "This was followed by the conversion of the Østensjø Line, as well as the new Grorud Line and the Furuset Line" Converted to what? Dabomb87 (talk) 23:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Arsenikk (talk) 14:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from KV5
  • "In 1993, for the first time, trains could run through the city between the two networks in the Common Tunnel" - there's no need for a tense change here, so I would change to "trains ran through the city", etc.
  • Under normal circumstances, I would suggest superscripting the daggers and other non-asterisks, but with this setup and the choice of colors they are surprisingly unobtrusive, so that can be passed over.
  • There are several date ranges using en-dashes, which is correct; however, I think that I would rather have seen them after the initial dates rather than before the final dates in the cells. I was confused when I first saw it. I don't know if this issue was addressed earlier in the nomination or not; if it was and consensus was reached for the current format, I will withdraw this comment.

Otherwise, I find this list to be well-constructed and aesthetically pleasing, and it means both the old and the new criteria. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. I have changed the tense. As for the placement of the endahses, I would normally have agreed. The reason for this choice is to try to aid the reader by right-aligning the dates; since the years are under each other, the readers is helped to quickly read the years and avoid the date. I would presume most reads want to know what year a station opened, and only a few want to know the exact date. By placing the endahses at the end of the first row, this whole alignment business is void, and the row would perhaps look better left-aligned. This would again upsett the delcate balance of the rows right of the service icons being right-aligned and those left of the service icons being left-aligned. That is why I did as I did—you are of course free to be of a different opinion. Arsenikk (talk) 20:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your rationale makes perfect sense, so I have stricken the comment. Support. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 22:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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