Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Grammy Award for Best Rap/Sung Collaboration/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 03:24, 19 March 2011 [1].

Grammy Award for Best Rap/Sung Collaboration[edit]

Grammy Award for Best Rap/Sung Collaboration (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Adabow (talk · contribs) 19:41, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because... I saw the endless work by Another Believer on Grammy Awards, so I thought I'd better pitch in on at least one list. Another Believer's deserves a lot of credit here as his previous work made it easy to find references. Adabow (talk · contribs) 19:41, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Thank you for your kind words. I am happy to see others contributing to the Grammy "project" as well. I will certainly give this list my stamp of approval. Even without my minor contributions, this list was highly consistent with other Grammy-related lists that have been promoted to FL status. I have not done research myself about the award, so I am not sure if there are other facts, controversies, etc. worth noting. Based solely on formatting, consistency with similar lists, media, and sources I will support the promotion of this list assuming other reviewers' concerns are addressed. Well done, Adabow. Keep up the great work and feel free to contribute to additional Grammy lists! --Another Believer (Talk) 20:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments: No disambig links or problematic external links. Also, I will let other reviewers decide this, but I can see how some people might find multiple flag icons of the same country in the same cell redundant. Would just one American flag work if both artists are American? --Another Believer (Talk) 20:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Some issue with the alt text for Kanye West. Jujutacular talk 21:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. While correcting a spelling error, I added an additional "|" to correct the alt text. (Not to step on your toes, Adabow, just did it while I was making another edit!) --Another Believer (Talk) 21:36, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all! I'm not doing this for credit, but to improve the encyclopaedia. So thanks. Adabow (talk · contribs) 22:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Per MOS:FLAG, I'm not really sure if it's appropriate to list the flag icon next to the country name. I'm sort of on the fence about this one because it's a good visual identifier, but it risks overpowering the artist. For example, Rihanna lives and works in the United States, but with the gigantic Barbados flag, it might lead people to make them think she records in Barbados. Do other editors have opinions on this? Nomader (Talk) 23:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have just re-used the format used in other FLs such as Grammy Award for Best Rock Album. I would have no objection to removing flags, but it would have to be done on all Grammy lists. Adabow (talk · contribs) 23:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, the flags look great. MOS:FLAG instructs not to use flags in article introductions or infoboxes--this table is neither. Also, under the section "Biographical use" MOS states: "If a French player is awarded a medal for playing in a German team, the German flag would be used in a table of awards." Granted, this is in the case of country representation in sports. Still, I don't feel flag use in these Grammy lists is in violation of NPOV. For the sake of consistency, I would argue to keep the flags (see any Grammy-related FL). --Another Believer (Talk) 23:50, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think that flags look great too, but they make the user instantly think about the nationality of the artist instead of who the singer is, and in many cases, doesn't accurately reflect their current citizenship. I think the "Do not emphasize nationality without good reason" actually makes specific mention of putting nationality flags next to artists; the example uses Paul McCartney and mentions that putting a flagicon next to his name emphasizes his Englishness over other qualities. I'd prefer it if there was a way we could do the list without the flags, but again, I'm not dead set against it by any means. It's no big deal– if no other editors feel the way I do about it, then I might as well support as I see no other outstanding issues with the list. I'll give it a few days though and maybe give the list another thorough review before I do so. Nomader (Talk) 03:42, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I won't put up much of a fight if consensus shows a preference for removing the flags. However, in my opinion, the flags do not make the list unclear, ambiguous or controversial (see the "Clarity" section), and therefore do not violate NPOV. --Another Believer (Talk) 05:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also think the flags must be removed from this and all other Grammy lists. I don't like the appearance, it increases page-load time, doesn't particular add much to the article besides unnecessarily emphasising the performer's nationality. Also dislike the practice of wikilinking the countries.—indopug (talk) 06:00, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the flags, but I feel it would be regressive to unlink countries. WP:BTW. If consensus changes I am happy to revert (re-add the flags). Adabow (talk · contribs) 08:35, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But how does linking to United States a bunch of times help? Everybody already knows what is.—indopug (talk) 03:50, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, everybody knows what the US is. But not every country. Some people may not know much about, let's say, Barbados. Surely this link is helpful? Adabow (talk · contribs) 08:52, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment well I liked the prior version with the flags; now it looks a little bit odd for me. Because this list a sortable, I see no problems to link so much.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 10:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the better question is whether or not the Grammys put this much emphasis on nationality when they give out the awards... if they do, the nationality is sensationally important, but as is apparent in this list, the nationality could just be mentioned in the lead especially when the US dominates so strongly for an award. It's not the nationality that counts, but the artist themselves. I'm worried that the flags overshadow who the artists are. Nomader (Talk) 09:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We could do away with the column altogether? Adabow (talk · contribs) 09:23, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is displaying nationalities more appropriate for some lists than others? Keep in mind that we are discussing a list with mostly American artists--some lists are dominated by artists from other nations or by artists from a variety of nations. Including nationality information provides additional detail to the reader by illustrating where Grammy-winning artists are from. In the greater picture, readers can compare one list to another to see how some music categories are more prominent in different parts of the world. --Another Believer (Talk) 18:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • See no problem with flags, as long as they are used per WP:MOSFLAG, in this case with the country name next to them.
  • "The pair were again nominated in 2006 for "Rich Girl", however they did not win a second time." could tighten this with "The pair were unsuccessfully nominated a second time in..."
  • "thrice" somewhat archaic, three times is regular!
  • I think "Inaugral" should be "Inaugural".
  • Andre 3000 needs an accent on his e.
  • Be consistent with hyphenation of Jay(-)Z.
  • Caption has Kayne West -> Kanye West...(!)

The Rambling Man (talk) 21:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed. Nice typo-spotting! And I'm a bit annoyed that we have lost "thrice" from the language. Adabow (talk · contribs) 04:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • Note to reviewers: Consensus seems to be in favour of keeping the flags. If you have an issue with this I suggest you post at WT:MOSICON. Adabow (talk · contribs) 04:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nope, I have no objection. Nomader (Talk) 14:11, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Glad the flags are back! Does anyone else have thoughts on my "additional" comment above regarding multiple uses of the same flag within a cell? --Another Believer (Talk) 16:15, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Per Another Believer's initial comments. Candyo32 13:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I have looked through it and it meets FL criteria--Blackjacks101 (talk) 13:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Courcelles 19:34, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments
The nationalities, meh. I think I'd rather see them gone, as they don't really relate to the award, and with two in every field it is rather confusing.
None of the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences citations are working, throwing up an error message.
Why give the publisher for the LA Times but not the SF Chronicle?
"Americans Eve and Gwen Stefani first won the award in 2002" -> "Americans Eve and Gwen Stefani won the first award in 2002". Current placement says Eve and Stefani won their first award in 2002, not the first award in the category was given in 2002.

Courcelles 18:44, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed. Thank you. Adabow (talk · contribs) 03:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now we seem to be relying on two sources that are not all that reliable. About.com has been questioned in more FAC/FLC's that I can count, and I don't think any have ever found it reliable. And we're still having a debate over Rock on the Net, so that is at best questionable. Courcelles 06:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I replaced them in the inline citations, and I am currently looking for a more reliable general source. Adabow (talk · contribs) 08:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This functions as a General source. I went and updated this link on all Grammy lists with GA or FL status, so be sure to use this link if you happen to work on any additional Grammy lists. --Another Believer (Talk) 16:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I believe everything has been addressed now. With regards to the nationality column consensus favours keeping it, but I am indifferent. Adabow (talk · contribs) 06:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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