Wikipedia:Featured article review/To Autumn/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Dana boomer 00:49, 29 November 2010 [1].

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To Autumn

Review commentary

To Autumn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/To Autumn/archive1

• Featured article review/To Autumn/archive1

Notified: Alan W, Amandajm, WikiProject Poetry

Within the past several days, there have been some significant changes to the article from when it was promoted to FA a little over a year ago. This has caused some insignificant instability and has resulted in some content disputes. I have not checked the other FA criteria, but this likely fails 1(e) unless something else is going on in which I am not aware of. –MuZemike 01:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• Note – User:Ottava Rima, who has brought this article to FA, is also aware, but he cannot comment here as he is currently banned. –MuZemike 01:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any discussion on the article's talk page regarding this instability so it's hard to figure out what the problem is, how/if it has been addressed, etc. Also, is it wiser to wait until the main contributor is unbanned before this sort of review? --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

As I have been notified about this review, I feel bound to say something here, even though my contributions have been minuscule, just a tiny bit of cleanup (and one edit was even undone by MuZemike—correctly, as I see now it was clearly a mistake). The background of this article is something of an anomaly. Looking through the history, I can see two really major contributors: Ottava Rima and Kathyrncelestewright. And they have both been banned indefinitely. (Technically, the latter has been "blocked indefinitely" as a sockpuppet.) Without intending any comment on the reasons or justification for the banning/blocking (there is certainly enough about that on numerous other pages on Wikipedia), I will just say that, with respect to the editing of this article, it is unfortunate that neither of them can be around to participate in a discussion of the merits of any of the recent edits. That said, no Wikipedia rule prevents further editing of an article after it has reached Featured status, and these edits seem to me to have been made in good faith. My own opinion is that, while the above-mentioned banned/blocked editors contributed a lot of very good material, the article did pass into the Featured realm with some problems in the writing, and Amandajm has done a good job cleaning up some of these problems. Occasionally, some of these edits might also contribute a few problems of their own, but most of them seem to me to be improvements.

This edit contains examples of both the good and the not so good: "'To Autumn' employs poetical techniques which Keats perfected in the five poems which he had written in the Spring of the same year. However Keats departs from some aspects of the previous poems...." is much improved upon by "'To Autumn' employs poetical techniques which Keats had perfected in the five poems written in the Spring of the same year but departs from them in some aspects". This is the sort of polish and tightening that good editors provide. On the other hand, I think that changing "There is no dramatic movement in 'To Autumn' as there is in the earlier poems, and the poem attempts to discuss the poetic process without a progression of the temporal scene, an idea that Keats termed as 'stationing'" to "There is no dramatic movement in 'To Autumn' as there is in the earlier poems, without a progression of the temporal scene, an idea that Keats termed as 'stationing'" adds some confusion, making it sound like it is the "progression of the temporal scene" that Keats termed stationing, just the opposite of what is clearly the intended meaning in the first version.

Then again, I can understand removing "the poem attempts to discuss the poetical process", since that clause has no clear meaning in its context, as Amandajm says, and it is hard to see how this article could have been granted Featured Article status with this kind of writing. WP:WIAFA 1(a) states that the prose of a Featured Article should be "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", and I don't see how the quality of the writing (whatever its other merits) in the article as it was before Amandajm began her series of edits met any professional standard—not by a long shot. So I think she is justified in her work, even though some specific changes might be debatable. The ideal situation would be for some real expert on Keats—and I am certainly not one—to come along and review all of this. At any rate, I don't see any justification at this point for removing this article's Featured status now that it has been granted. I don't have all that much free time these days, but given the current situation, time permitting I will check back from time to time (the page is certainly on my watchlist) and see if I can make some additional constructive comments or changes if I think the editing is running off the tracks.

Oh, and I will just add that I do not see any major instability or content disputes. If anything, the current editing is being done not to destabilize the article—1(e)—but to satisfy 1(a), something that should have been done before FA was granted.--Alan W (talk) 04:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• I bought into this because it was a very poorly written article that required extensive work. It wasn't FA quality.
• There have been no disputes with the exception of MuZemike leaving me a message asking me why I was changing an FA article. I answered that.
• If you check the edit history you will see that the editor Ipatrol reverted the page to an earlier stage, loosing all my edits, and meaning that a number of editors subsequently tried to make piecemeal improvments to the article, once it was returned to its inadequate state. When I reverted it, I went over the intermediate edits and tried to reinstate anything of value. (not sure that I caught them all, but they wer not major)

The reason that User:Ipatrol made the reversion was that User:Ottava Rima, (a banned editor) left a (quote:"goodwill") message saying that the page had been vandalised with the repeated insertion of "cunnilingus". So Ipatrol, on the say-so of a banned editor, reverted the article without actually checking! Whe I saw what Ipatrol had done, we discussed it on his talk page. I'm flabbergasted by such and action, but it was indeed well meaning.

• My changes have mainly involved trying to make sense out of information that was already there and referenced. I have done this by re-ordering sentences, tidying language and providing examples from within the text of the poem. I have removed a meaningless statement, as above, and changed an erroneous statement that had been maintained from the stub.

On the inadequacy of the article, just let me say that there was no mention of "personification" within this, possibly the most cited textbook example of personification in the English language. Neither was there any mention of iambic pentameter, despite the fact that the article stated two ways in which the rhythm varied from this structure. Both these features of the poem are of significance. Where the poetic features were discussed it was done without comprehension, and stated ridiculous things like how many times certain features occcured, in percentages!!

• Alan, I agree with your suggestion about the movement thing. I would have rewritten it better but don't have the sources. Can you rewrite that part in a way that expresses it better. As I see it, "movement" is not the issue at all. There are a great many verbs- the poem is full of them- but the vast majority are about growing, seeing, finding etc and have little to do with motion, so that stuff is irrelevant. How better to put it?

I suggest this dicussion here be closed, and we take our non-dispute about verbs, metaphors and alliteration to the articles talk page.

Amandajm (talk) 08:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment I've restored the pre-TFA version. A lot of the subsequent edits are really don't do much. For one thing, Amandajm inserted Sparknotes as refs and they're still there. That's utterly astounding. I'm not going to get into the merits of point of view A vs B, but a FA with sparknotes as refs is not a better version. I suggest editors work out their debate on the talk page vice article itself so that this FAR isn't necessary. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Rlevse, you don't read edit summaries, obviously! The edit summary for the Sparknotes mentioned that this was a temporary measure, until a solid reference could be located.

As for you statement that the subsequent edits don't do much, I'm not sure whether you are referring to the tweaks to language and spelling made by other editors, or to my changes. Have you actually read my comments here? Have you actually read the edit summaries? have you actually read the before-and-after versions? What is nore to the point, have you actually read the poem?

There is a consensus between me and Alan W that the article, in its FA state as absolutely b-awful and shouldn't be an FA, let alone on the front page.

Amandajm (talk) 03:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

What a Hoot I have just taken a look to see which one of my additions was referenced from Sparknotes. What was it? The statement that To Autumn is written in Iambic pentameter.

OK! This poem is a prime example of [[iambic pentameter. Look up Iambic pentameter on Wikipedia and you will find it cited as an example. Do you realise that this important fact wasn't even mentioned in this so-called FA?

But because of your objection to a cheap nasty reference, you reverse the whole article, thereby losing

• The fact that it is in iambic pentameter
• The fact that the major poetic tool used here is Personification. (It's the most famous and most cited example in English)
• The important reference to the similarity to the painted works of Keats' contemporary John Constable.
• The comparison between the England-based description by Keats and the Grand Tour views of his contemporaries Byron and Shelley.
• The sorting out of the fact that the sense of "taste" referred to in the old intro does not exist anywhere in the poem and that was is referrenced is in fact the "tactile" sense.
• The pertinent reordering of statement about the form of the poem, giving examples of spondee and so on.
• The filling out of the description of the poem as a Classical Ode by showing the way in which it does resemble that poetic form.

So you think that the article can afford to lose this information?

If you are a solid editor, ie "improver" rather than simply an objector and reverter, a few minutes on Google would have located twenty sites where articles other than that on Sparknotes described To Autumn as being in iambic penatmeter, including several other Wikipedia pages.

I will find a better reference, and then, unless you find some solid problems in the 7 additions that I have made, as listed above, the article will be returned to a more satisfactory state.

Amandajm (talk) 04:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes I did read them, and temporary is not a valid reason for an unreliable source. And your revert for what you claim is "essential" is a hoot. Given that this situation is obviously hopeless, I'm bowing out; let the FA star be removed and the article remain a battleground. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Featured article criteria of concern brought up in the review section include prose and sourcing. Dana boomer (talk) 16:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delist. Agree with the concerns cited by Dana boomer, concerns not addressed, there has been nothing happening at all. JJ98 (Talk) 20:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Restore to an earlier version. It's plain and simple. Ottava helped to create the article and others added unsourced information. When we put articles through reviews to upgrade them, we remove the unsourced information. This means that there are three options. One, we restore the article to an earlier version and leave it as is. Two, we go through the article with a fine-tooth comb and remove the unsourced information in question. Three, we restore the article, but if there is some information added that actually has sources, we could just merge it to an earlier version. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Just so people know, Ottava provided the sourcing and ItsLassieTime copyedited. She was added because of her work at the GA review where she was the reviewer. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 15:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep as is. This is the first I'm hearing about "unsourced" information. Nowhere here or on the article's talk page has anyone made any accusations about unsourced information. (Before now; and where's the proof of anything being unsourced?) There was one dubious source that Amadajm added but later removed. And maybe there is "nothing happening" right now. But that is because Amandajm, with some help from me, already addressed the concerns expressed earlier. Mostly, the article remains as it was when it became Featured. But there were a few problems, mostly in the clarity of the writing, that have been been fixed. Most of what Ottava and his collaborators put in there is still there. To go back to an earlier version would be to throw out work that others have done to further improve this article. No one yet has offered any real justification for reverting to an earlier version. --Alan W (talk) 01:59, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delist unless someone is willing to check all of the offline sources, per co-nominator Kathyrncelestewright (talk · contribs), a sockpuppet, and possible copyvio. Has anyone accessed any of the sources? They are all offline; reverting to an earlier version will not resolve any possible copyvio, so we need some verification that someone has carefully checked the text against the sources before keeping. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Note, I have cut a whole pile of stuff and pasted it on the talkpage. If any of it is useful, please bring it back, but please remember that ARBCOM authorised proxying by Ottava Rima to add content, not to involve himself in disputes. When he finishes his source analysis, that can be copied in here, as he's better placed than most to carry one out. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Source analysis

Carried out by Ottava Rima here. Copied over by --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia has asked for a Source analysis of To Autumn, a FA. I shall base the analysis off of this version of the page, the one listed in the history as the first FA version. I shall be placing excerpts from the text with quotations from the books. I shall do so in a way that may violate "fair use" but should not since it is for an educational reason - verifying if a work has plagiarism or not.

Lead

I shall skip over the lead, as it is summary from the body of the text and contains no original concepts. It was also substantially reworked.

Background

1. Article: "During the spring of 1819, Keats wrote many of his major odes: "Ode on a Grecian Urn", "Ode on Indolence", "Ode on Melancholy", "Ode to a Nightingale", and "Ode to Psyche". After the month of May, he began to pursue other forms of poetry, including the verse tragedy Otho the Great in collaboration with friend and roommate Charles Brown, the second half of Lamia, and a return to his unfinished epic Hyperion.[1]"

Source: Bate 1963 pp. 526–562 This is a summary of a large section that describes all of the poems listed above.

2. His efforts from spring until autumn were dedicated completely to a career in poetry; he switched between writing long and short poems, and his goal for each day was to compose more than fifty lines of verse. He devoted his free time to studying works such as Robert Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy to further his own ideas.[2]

Source: Gittings 1968 pp. 269–270

A. Page 269 talks about Hyperion and smaller poems. The "goal for each day" comes from: "In his new mood of release, Keats was not content with reaching his old standard of fifty lines of poetry a day" and "He did not stop there, but wrote a longer poem in the same metre."

B. Page 270 has the statement about Burton: "he borrowed from the 'Dialogue between Pleasure and Pain', which he found at the beginning of The Anatomy of Melancholy by Robert Burton". The emphasis on "career in poetry" is related to the paragraph (emphasis on first sentence) beginning: "Once more he began to feel himself fully a poetry, with poetry as his main concern."

3. "Although Keats managed to write many poems in 1819, he was suffering from a multitude of financial troubles throughout the year. These troubles were compounded with his concerns over his brother, George, who, after emigrating to America, was badly in need of money. Keats was distracted by his and his brother's fiscal problems, but on 19 September 1819 he set aside time to write "To Autumn". The poem marks the final moment of his poetry career. He could no longer afford to devote his time to the composition of poems and began working on more lucrative projects.[1]"

Source: See 1 about Bate 1963 pp. 526–562. The statement on George comes from p. 526: "George, who had so often helped him in the past, now depended on him. A large reservoir of guilt, accumulating since Keats had left Guy's Hospital, was also suddenly tapped." Page 562 talks about letters from George mentioning money problems. - "but Keats's dispatch shows his feeling of urgency. On September 10 bad news and appeals for help arrived from George; and from then until September 21, when he gave up the new version of Hyperion, the days were distracted by anxiety, by fruitless efforts to help George, and by he determination to turn to some other kind of work."

The page numbers should probably have added 580-581, where it is made explicit that he worked on "To Autumn" on 19 September (it is mentioned partly before, but for redundancy of the date).

4. "In addition to his monetary problems, Keats's declining health and personal responsibilities provided more obstacles to his poetic efforts.[3]"

Source: Motion 1999 p. 461 "Keats wrote the poem when his precarious freelance life was finally coming to an end, when his poor health was becoming unignorable, when he realised that he ould not continue to postpone some sort of resolution with Fanny, when he felt gloomy about the reliability of his 'set', and when his worries about his brother and sister-in-law were acute."

5. "On 19 September 1819, Keats walked near Winchester along the River Itchen. In a letter to his friend Joshua Reynolds written on 21 September, Keats described the impression the scene had made upon him and its influence on the composition of "To Autumn":[4] "

Source: Bate 1963 p. 580 "The Sunday afer he returned to Winchester from London, he took the same walk out to the St. Cross meadows along the small clear River Itchen (September 19). He mentioned the walk in a letter to Reynolds two days later... The poem is the last of the great odes, 'To Autumn.'"

6. "How beautiful the season is now – How fine the air. A temperate sharpness about it [...] I never lik'd stubble fields so much as now [...] Somehow a stubble plain looks warm – in the same way that some pictures look warm – this struck me so much in my sunday's walk that I composed upon it."[5]

Source: Quoted material that can be found in Bate 1963 p. 580 as attributed. However, the quote is attributed to a book on Keats's letters. Spelling is the same in both.

7. "Not everything on Keats's mind at the time was bright; the poet knew in September that he would have to finally abandon Hyperion. Thus, in the letter that he wrote to Reynolds, Keats also included a note saying that he abandoned his long poem.[6]"

Source: Bate 1963 p. 585 Derived from "No further delay was possible. He had probably been thinking since he returned from London on September 15 that he would have to abandon Hyperion--this effort that symbolized so much in his hope to be 'among the English poets.' Three days after the ode 'To Autumn,' he wrote to Reynolds (in the same letter where he described the warm stubble fields and his walk just before he wrote 'To Autumn') that he had 'given up Hyperion.'"

8. "Keats did not send "To Autumn" to Reynolds, but did include the poem within a letter to Richard Woodhouse, Keats's publisher and friend, and dated it on the same day.[7]"

Source: Evert 1965 pp. 296–297 Derived from this: "On September 21, 1819, Keats announced in a letter to Reynolds that he had given up The Fall of Hyperion... What he had composed was, of course, the ode 'To Autumn,' which he did not include in the letter to Reynolds but sent to Woodhouse in a letter of the same date."

Similar language used in part but only from the compactness of facts.

9. "The poem was revised and included in Keats's 1820 collection of poetry titled Lamia, Isabella, the Eve of St. Agnes, and Other Poems. Although the publishers Taylor and Hessey feared the kind of bad reviews that had plagued Keats's 1818 edition of Endymion, they were willing to publish the collection after the removal of any potentially controversial poems to ensure that there would be no politically motivated reviews that could give the volume a bad reputation.[8]"

Source: McGann 1979 pp. 988–989 I am going to quote A Routledge literary Sourcebook on the poems of John Keats p. 58 copy of the text (since it is visible on googlebooks for others to check). "'To Autumn' was first published in Lamia, Isabella, The Even of St. Agnes, and other Poems, the so called 1820 volume" and "The publishers of the 1820 volume were Taylor and Hessey, who also published Endymion in 1818... that had been the target of hostile reviews of Keats, and the poet was not the only person who suffered in that literary whirl-wind. consequently, when Keats approached Taylor and Hessey again, in the later part of 1819, about publishing the new book of poems he had been planning, they were interested but wary. They had no intention of bringing out a volume that would all down again the sort of hostility and ridicule which greeted Endymion.... The key fact in the pre-publication history of the 1820 poems is the insistence by Keats's publishers that the book not contain anything that would provoke the reviewers to attack (they were especially oncerned about charges of indecency and political radicalism). Keats sruggled with them over these issues, but he was eventually persuaded to follow their line. The two poems published in Leigh Hunt's Indicator did not find a place in the 1820 volume, and the reason for this is that Keats and his publishers did not want to give the reviewers any occasion for linking Keats's new work with the politically sensitive name of Leigh Hunt."

Structure

1. "Like many of Keats's 1819 odes, the structure of the poem is that of an odal hymn.[9]"

Source: Bate 1963 p. 499 "One was the odal hymn, of which he 'Ode on Melancholy' and the later 'To Autumn' are triumphant examples."

2. "While the earlier 1819 odes perfected techniques and allowed for variations that appear within "To Autumn", Keats dispenses with some aspects of the previous poems (such as the narrator) and ensures that the poem deals only with concrete concepts. There is no dramatic movement in "To Autumn" as there is in the earlier poems, and the poem attempts to discuss the poetic process without a progression of the temporal scene, an idea that Keats termed as "stationing".[10] "

Source: Bate 1963 pp. 581–582 Derived from this on p. 581: "Most of what Keats had developed in the structure of the ode stanza the previous April and May reappears effortlessly now... There is only one new variation, simple but altogether appropriate: the ode stanza is given a more prolonged effect." and "The poet himself is completely absent; there is no 'I,' no suggestion of the discursive language that we find in the other odes; the poem is entirely concrete, and self-sufficient in and through its concreteness. But if dramatic debate, protest, and qualifiation are absent, it is not because any premises from whih they might proceed are disregarded but because these premises are being anticipated and absorbed at each step."

The rest is derived from this on p. 582: "These resolutions are attained partly through still another one to which Keats's poetry has so often aspired: a union of process and stasis (or what Keats has called 'station')."

3. "Some of the language of the poem resembles phrases found in earlier poems Keats had written and there are similarities between the lines of "To Autumn" and lines in poems such asEndymion, Sleep and Poetry, and Calidore.[11]"

Source: Ridley 1933 pp. 283–285 These pages lists lines and how they are similar to previous poems. An example on p. 284: "Then there is ' Sleep quiet with his poppy coronet' in Sleep and Poetry (348), and a passage in Endymion whih is interesting for a probably associative link"

4. "Keats relies heavily on monosyllabic words and consonantal sounds – especially bilabial consonants – along with an emphasis on long vowels to control the flow of the poem. His syntax lacks hiatus and there is only a single instance medial inversion of an accent within the poem. However, he does incorporate the Augustan inversion (a reversal of an accent at the beginning of a line) approximately 4.2% of the time. Within his measure, Keats incorporates spondees in approximately 13.9% of his verses. The rhyme follows a pattern of starting with a Shakespearian ABAB pattern which is followed by CDEDCCE rhyme scheme. The verse differentiates itself from his previous odes through use of 11 line stanzas, instead of 10, with a couplet placed before the concluding line of each stanza.[12]"

Source: Bate 1962 pp. 182–184 The first part is derived from p. 182: "The diction, like that of the other odes, is almost monosyllabic, strong in consonantal body, and English in origin" and "Bilabial consonants, which Keats had so commonly employed in Hyperion, the Eve of St. Agnes, and other odes, are equally abundant now: 'Drows'd with the fumme of poppies'; 'Or by a cider-press with patient look'..."

The next is derived from p. 183: "'Long' vowels are dominant, and spondai feet are drawn upon as never before (13.9%), except in the Grecian Urn and the Ode on Melancholy. Senses other that that of sight are once again appealed to, as in the inspired alteration from 'Drows'd with red poppies' (17) to 'Drows'd with the fume of poppies'; and Keats's former happy preference for the passive verbal participle as epithet is once again given free play, as in the translation from While a gold cloud (25) to 'While barred clouds'..."

More pp. 183-184: "Rigorous structural care is once again apparent at every hand: hiatus is non-exisent; medial inversion of accent occurs only one; the strict Augustan device of initial inversion of accent alone is relied upon for variety, and is employed more frequently (4.2%) than in any other lyric of Keas except Ode to a Nightingale; and an even more severely orthodox distribution of pause is employed than in the previous odes. It is enough to add that the stanza of the ode differs from that of the earlier ones in consisting of eleven rather than ten lines, and in introducing a couplet before the concluding line. The former stanza, it will be remebered, consisted of what amounted to a quatrain from the Shakespearian octave, abab, follwed, in the main, by a strictly Petrarchan sestet, cdecde. The rhyme-scheme of Autumn is abab and, in the first stanza, cde dcce; in the other two cde cdde."

5. "Between the manuscript version and the published version of "To Autumn" Keats tightened the langague of the poem. One of Keats's changes emphasized by critics is the change in line 17 of "Drows'd with red poppies" to "Drows'd with the fume of poppies", which emphasizes the sense of smell instead of sight. The later edition relies more on passive, past participles, as apparent in the change of "While a gold cloud" in line 25 to "While barred clouds".[13"

Source: Bate 1962 p. 183 Derived from: "Senses other that that of sight are once again appealed to, as in the inspired alteration from 'Drows'd with red poppies' (17) to 'Drows'd with the fume of poppies'; and Keats's former happy preference for the passive verbal participle as epithet is once again given free play, as in the translation from While a gold cloud (25) to 'While barred clouds'..." "

6. "Other changes involve the strengthening of phrases, especially within the transformation of the phrase in line 13 "whoever seeks for thee may find" into "whoever seeks abroad may find". Many of the lines within the second stanza were completely rewritten, especially those which did not fit into a rhyme scheme. Some of the minor changes involved adding punctuation missing from the original manuscript copy and altering capitalisation changes between the versions.[14]"

Source: Ridley 1933 pp. 285–287 Ridley analyzes how the editions differ. p. 285 has the first example and says: "when he reaches the end of the third line, Keats alters, feeling also no doubt a kind of thin abruptness in the half-line question, and a certain feebleness both of sound and sense in for thee". The second is commented on 286: "this has at least achieved a rhyme; but if the line about the sun is to disappear altogether the rhyme is in the wrong place... So Keats cancels the whole passage with some vigorous cross-hatching, and begins all over again using the re-written sixth line as the fifth".

The rest is derived from p. 287: "The copy in the Woodhouse letter omits to notice the cancellation of the s of stores; corrects some spellings, but writes Stready for Steady; does some punctuating; reads a brook for the brook, and Dased for Dos'd, either an easy misreading of a word so written that it might be either, or a deliberate alteration; and greatly acentuates the opiate z sound of the last line by reading oozings for oozing."

Poem

1. "The first stanza of the poem describes natural processes, unlike the following which deal more with sensual observations, as it presents a harvest in its final stages."

Source: Bloom 1971 p. 432 "The first stanza is natural process; the remaining two stanzas are sensuous observations of the consequences of that process: first, sights of the harvest in its final stages; then, post-harvest sounds, heralding the coming-on of winter. The sequence of the three stanzas then is pre-harvest ripeness, late-harvest repletion, and post-harvest natural music." Any similarity is in the tight statement of fact.

2. "The Stanza provides a union of maturation and growth, two oppositional forces within the work, and this union instills an idea within nature that the season will not end:[16]"

Source: Bate 1963 p. 582 Derived from: "Each of the three stanzas concentrates on a dominant, even archetypal, aspect of autumn, but, while doing so, admits and absorbs its opposite. The theme of the first is ripeness, of growth now reaching its climax beneath the 'maturing sun,' as the srain of the weighty fruit bends the apple tree and loads the vines.... Yet growth is still surprisingly going on, as autumn and the sun conspire 'to set budding more...' and as the bees are deceived into feeling that summer will never end."

3. "The second stanza reverses the images of the first stanza and describes the process of harvesting. Autumn, a harvester, is not actually harvesting but exists in a stasis. Only near the end of the stanza is there movement:[16]"

Source: Bate 1963 p. 582 Derived from: "If, in the first stanza, we find process continuing with a context of stillness and attained fulfillment, int he second--which is something of a reverse or mirror image of the first--we find stillness where we expect process. For now autumn is conceived as a reaper or harvester. Yet it is a harvest that is not harvesting. This benevolent deity is at first motionless... Movement begins only in the latter part of the stanza. Even then it is only suggested int he momentary glimpses of the figure of the gleaner..."

4. "Within the final moments of the poem, there is an introduction of the harvest and Autumn is manifested in the role of a harvester. The end approaches within the final moments of the song and death is slowly approaching alongside of the end of the year. However, Autumn is replaced by an image of life in general, and the songs of autumn becomes a song about life in general:[17]"

Source: Bate 1963 pp. 582–583 "in what follows is the withdrawal of autumn, the coming death of the year, and of course the familiar archetypal relevance of the association of our feeling of sequence in our own lives." and "the procedure now is almost completely indirect and left solely to inference... autumn is replaced by the concrete images of life, and of life unafflicted by any thought of death: the gnats, the hedge crickets, the redbreast. Moreover, it is life that an exist in much the same way at other times than autumn. Only two images are peculiar to the season--the 'stubble plains,' and the 'full-grown lambs.' The mind is free to assoiate the wailful mourning of the gnats with a funeral dirge for the dying year, but the sound is no more confined to autumn alone than is the 'soft-dying' of any day"

Themes

1. ""To Autumn" is thematically connected to many of Keats's 1819 odes. For example, his "Ode to Melancholy" introduces the acceptance of the process of life, and the concept is taken up again within "To Autumn".[18]"

Source: Bate 1962 p. 522 (Source is really Bate 1963, this was later corrected). Derived from a page following analysis of "Ode to Melancholy": "Anticipating the ode 'To Autumn' of four months later, the second stanza then turns directly to the vivid acceptance of process. In the very springing of the flowers and the new green of the hill..."

2. "There is a union between the ideal and the real which leads to fulfillment. Of all of Keats's poems, "To Autumn" most closely describes an actual paradise while focusing on the archetypal images that are connected with autumn. Within the poem, the season of autumn represents the growth, the maturation, and finally an approaching death.[19]"

Source: Bate 1963 pp. 581–583 Derived from: "The result... is also a successful union of the ideal--of the heart's desire--and reality; of the 'greeting of the Spirit' and its objet. What the heart really wants is being found... Here at least is something of a genuine paradise, therefore. It even has its deity--a benevolent deity that wants not only to 'load and bless'... but also to 'spare,' to 'set budding more.' And yet all this is put with concrete exactness and fidelity." The rest come from use of "Eah of the three stanzas oncentrates on a dominant, even arhetypal, aspet of autumn, but, while doing so, admits and absorbs its opposite. The theme of the first is ripeness, of growth now reahing its climax". Use of "mature" and "end is approaching" are found also scattered in the passage.

3."The poem also defends art's role in helping society in a manner similar to Keats's "Ode on Indolence" and "Ode to Psyche". "To Autumn" describes a system in which nature and culture are two separate parts of the universe, and nature is turned into culture by an artist. Civilization is furthered by man's ability to use nature for agricultural cultivation. The artist, like the farmer, has to process nature into a consumable object, which in turn allows people sustenance. The end of the poem is joined in song as nature gives way to civilization, which represents the self-sacrificing of both nature and the artist for society.[20]"

Source: Vendler 1988 pp. 124–125 "Finally, in the ode 'To Autumn,' Keats finds his most comprehensive and adequate symbol for the social value of art. He does this by playing, in this ode, two roles at once. Once again, as in the 'Ode on Indolence' and the 'Ode to Psyche,' he will be playing the role of the artist, the dreamer indolent in reverie on the bedded grass or the gardener Fancy...." and "In 'To Autumn,' in his final understanding of the social function of art, Keats chooses nature and culture as the two poles of his symbolic system. He sees the work of the artist as the transformation of nature into culture, the transmutation of the teeming fields into the garnered grain... Since civilization itself arose from man's domininion over nature, the process of nature by agriculture became the symbol in Greece of the most sacred mysteries."

More on page. 125: "Keats's autumn ode takes as its allegory for art the making of nature into nurtuer. The artist, with reaping hook, gleaning basket, and cider press, denudes nature, we may say, but creates food. We cannot, so to speak, drink apples or eat wheatl we an only consume processed nature... Since the artist in his own teeming field, art, in this allegory, is a process of self-immolation." and "Keats is the audience for the artist-goddess's sarifice of herself into food, as she passes from areless girl through ample maternity and into her own death vigil.. nature has become culture."

4. "The three stanzas of "To Autumn" are able to suggest both a movement from summer to early winter and also day turning into dusk. This progression is joined with a shift from the sensation of touch to sight and then to sound, creating a three part symmetry which is missing in Keats's other odes.[21]"

Source: Sperry 1973 p. 337 Derived from: "As critics have often pointed out, the three stanzas successively proceed from the last growth of late summer through the fullness of high autumn to the spareness of an early winter landscape, just as they suggest the progress of a single day through to its close in sunset. As Bush, among others, has noted, the imagery of the first stanza is mainly tatile, that of the second mainly visual, that of the last hiefly auditory. in these and other respets the ode displays a deliberate symmetry and balance the earlier odes do not possess."

5. "Although there is process and the suggestion of motion within the poem, there is a lack of action. Within the second stanza, autumn is described through metaphor as an exhausted labourer in lines 14–15. Near the end of the stanza, the steadiness of the gleaner in lines 19–20 emphasizes a motionlessness within the poem. The individuals are burdened or merely watch the events surrounding them. The poem as a whole creates within the imagination an image of death and a finality that is welcomed. There are no contrary ideas that are common within the other odes of 1819. Instead, "To Autumn" puts forth the idea that progression is no longer necessary as maturation has taken over, and growth and death are in harmony.[22]"

Source: Bloom 1968 pp. 95–97 Derived from: "As the second stanza of To Autumn opens, we see Autumn already 'amid' her store. The promised overabundance of the first stanza has been fulfilled... Autumn is no longer active process, but a female overcome by the fragrance and soft exhaustion of her own labor. She is passive, an embodiment of the earthly paradise" and "The final four lines of the stanza takes us to the very end of harvest, the gleaner bearing her laden head so steadily as to suggest motionlessness even as she moves, which further suggests he running-down to stasis of a process. Finally, we are shown the girl patiently watching, hours by hours, the meaningful sameness of the 'cyder-press' with its final oozings, the last wealth of complete process itself."

More on page. 96: "Winter descends here as a man might hope to die, with a natural sweetness, a natural movement akin to the extended wings of Stevens' pigeons or the organizing songs of Keats's swallows as they gather together for flight beyond winter. The day dies soft in this great stanza" and continues on page 97 with: "close the poem, whih has climaxed in an acceptance of process beyond the possibility of grief. The last seven lines are all sound; natural music so varied and intense as to preclude even natural lament. We feel that we might be at the end of tragedy or epi, having read only a short ode."

6. "Along with this harmony, the placing of the couplet before the end of each stanza creates a suspension of closing within the poem. This suspension within the poem reinforces the theme of continuation.[23]"

Source: Wagner 1996 pp. 110–111 "The creation of a sort of penultimate couplet has, as a strategy, a familiar feel to it. The new ode form grapples with the old problem of closure in the sonnet by bringing here a haunting reminder of the couplete-closure--and suspending it. 'Suspension' in previous Keas sonnets has meant something like a 'gesture of incompleteness'; here, it means something else: a 'principle of continuation.'"

7. "In a 1979 essay, Jerome McGann argued that while the poem was indirectly influenced by historical events, Keats had deliberately ignored the political landscape of 1819.[24"

Source: McGann 1979 pp. 988–1032 - summary of a long essay.

8. "Countering this view, Andrew Bennett, Nicholas Roe and others focused more on the political aspects of the poem, Roe arguing for a direct connection to the Peterloo Massacre of 1819.[25]"

Source: Strachan 2003 p. 175 - this contains a summary of works and short excerpts. Strachan says: "says McGAnn, is 'great' but 'politically reactionary', and 'To Autumn' 'attempt[s] to 'escape' the period whih provides the poem with its context.' This argument initiated a series of historical interpretations of 'To Autumn' (by such critics as Paul Fry, Andrew Bennett, and Nicholas Roe), many of which repudiate MGann's position and attempt to read the poem in explicitly political terms... Bennet's Keats, Narrative, and Audience argues that the .... while Roe's 'Keats's ommonwealth' offers a riposte to McGann which reads... in the light of the 'discourses of political and social justice after the outrage at Peterloo'."

9. "Later, Paul Fry further argued against McGann's stance when he pointed out, "It scarcely seems pertinent to say that 'To Autumn' is therefore an evasion of social violence when it is so clearly an encounter with death itself [...] it is not a politically encoded escape from history reflecting the coerced betrayal [...] of its author's radicalism. McGann thinks to rescue Keats from the imputation of political naïveté by saying that he was a radical browbeaten into quietism".[26]"

Source: Fry 1995 pp. 123–124 - this is a direct quote and attributed.

10. "In regards to other political aspects, post-colonial critic Alan Bewell interpreted the themes of Keats's ode in the context of British imperialism. He claimed "To Autumn" promoted the moderate climate of Britain over tropical climates.[27]"

Source: Bewell 2008 pp. 635–638 - Summary of statements. Example from 635: "Yet at a time when colonialism had made apparent the connection between health and climate, the seasonal cycle of spring, summer, fall, and winter was not taken for granted." Another on page 636: "More successfully than Hyperion, 'To Autumn' enacts a curing of space by tempering pathogenic extremes."

Analysing the changes between the FA state of the article and the editted state that is being complained about

It's claimed here that there have been deletions. The article is actually a little longer than it was. It contains almost all the original material.

Changes were made where material was:

• Erroneous (two sentences)
• Badly expressed
• Confusing
• Not well thought through
• Lacked continuity ie. jumped from form to theme to context withing a single paragraph.
• Clearly challengeable such as analysing percentages of times a form occurred.

A major change was the rearranging of sections. There was also some rearrangement of material within sections. Some parts of the original were shifted to paragraphs in which they had stronger application. Let me emphasise that very little of the original was lost, but some of it was rewritten.

Intro Here are the changes:

• Paragraph 2

The poem has three stanzas, each of eleven lines, that describe the tastes, sights, and sounds of autumn. Much of the third stanza, however, is dedicated to diction, symbolism, and literary devices with negative connotations, as it describes the end of the day and the end of autumn. "To Autumn" includes an emphasis on images of motion, growth, and maturation.

NOTE: "tastes" is incorrect. The FA version had a reference to the "tactile sense" further down the article which contradicted this. The "tactile" has remained and the "taste" which was left over from the original stub has gone.

The second sentences here refers to "diction, symbolism and literary devises" as if they occurred in the third stanza only. "Negative connotations" is not a good description. Later on in the article the editor had referred to Death as being "welcome". That remains, while this conradictory sentences was written out.

New Version:

The poem has three eleven-line stanzas which describe a progression through the season, from the late maturation of the crops to the harvest and to the last days of autumn when winter is nearing. The imagery is richly achieved through the personification of Autumn, and the description of its bounty, its sights and sounds. It has parallels in rural landscape, [1] with Keats himself describing the fields of stubble that he saw on his walk as being like that in a painting.[2]

NOTE: 1. "rural landscape" should read "the works of rural landscape painters".

2. There is a brief but much more satisfactory description of what the poem is about.

3. Personification. This is the major poetic tool used in this poem. "To Autumn" is the iconic example. It had been omitted from the FA entirely!!!

• Paragraph 3

FA version: The work can be interpreted as a discussion of death, an expression of colonialist sentiment, or as a political response to the Peterloo Massacre.

New version: The work has been interpreted as an allegory of death, as Keats's response to the Peterloo Massacre, which took place in the same year; and as an expression of colonialist sentiment.

NOTE: All ideas still present

1. "discussion" has become "allegory"

2. The "Colonialist sentiment" theory has the least currency and has been put last.

3. The relationship to the Peterloo massacre is interpretted in a "non-political" as well as "political" way.

Background

No significant changes.

Structure

Moved further down the page, after the Theme.

Poem

The thematic divisions that were between the stanzas have been put into the Theme section and expanded.

Theme

• Paragraph 1

An all-new paragraph which summarises the theme.

Autumn" describes, in its three stanzas, three different aspects of the season, its fruitfulness, its labour and its ultimate decline. Through the stanzas there is a progression from early autumn to mid autumn and then to the heralding of winter. Parallel to this, the poem depicts the day turning from morning to afternoon and into dusk. These progressions are joined with a shift from the tactile sense to that of sight and then of sound, creating a three part symmetry which is missing in Keats's other odes.[11]

• Stanza 1

FA version: The first stanza of the poem describes natural processes, unlike the following which deal more with sensual observations, as it presents a harvest in its final stages. [15] The Stanza provides a union of maturation and growth, two oppositional forces within the work, and this union instills an idea within nature that the season will not end:[16]

Editted version: Throughout the poem, Autumn is personified as one who conspires, who ripens fruit, who harvests and makes music. The first stanza of the poem represents Autumn as involved with the promotion of natural processes, growth and ultimate maturation, two forces in opposition in nature, but together creating the impression that the season will not end.[12] In this stanza the fruits are still ripening and the buds still opening in the warm weather. The tactile sense spoken of by Sperry is suggested by the imagery of growth and gentle motion: swelling, bending and plumping.[11]

NOTE: 1. the line in the FA version about "unlike the following which deal more with sensual observations" is out of place in describing the first Stanza. It would be more useful in describing the second stanze ie The second stanza of the poem deals with sensual observations unlike the first which describes natural processes. The information contained is identical, but it is pointless to compare something that the reader has not yet read and expect comprehension. That is not good style, regardless of how accurate the fact may be.

2. The significant point about "opposing forces" and ref is retained.

3. *Most importantly*, the Personification of Autumn is introduced into the discussion of theme and this continues into the subsequent descriptions of the stanzas.

• Stanza 2

FA Version: The second stanza reverses the images of the first stanza and describes the process of harvesting. Autumn, a harvester, is not actually harvesting but exists in a stasis. Only near the end of the stanza is there movement:[16]

Editted version: The second stanza presents the personification of Autumn as the harvester, to be seen by the viewer in various guises performing labouring tasks essential to the provision of food for the coming year. There is a lack of definitive action, all motion being gentle. Autumn is not depicted as actually harvesting but as seated, resting or watching.[12] In lines 14–15 Autumn is described metaphorically as an exhausted labourer. Near the end of the stanza, the steadiness of the gleaner in lines 19–20 again emphasises a motionlessness within the poem.[13] The progression through the day is revealed in actions that are all suggestive of the drowsiness of afternoon: the harvested grain is being winnowed, the harvester is asleep or returning home, the last drops issue from the cider press.[11]

NOTE: 1. I have not the faintest clue what the FA edtior meant by "The second stanza reverses the images of the first stanza". It isn't explained!

2. The editted version picks up the themes of "Personification", the "advance of the season", the "advance of the day into afternoon", as well as including and further expounding the "stasis and motion" mentioned in the FA version.

• Stanza 3

FA Version: Within the final moments of the poem, there is an introduction of the harvest and Autumn is manifested in the role of a harvester. The end approaches within the final moments of the song and death is slowly approaching alongside of the end of the year. However, Autumn is replaced by an image of life in general, and the songs of autumn becomes a song about life in general:[17]

Editted version: The last stanza contrasts Autumn's sounds with those of Spring. The sounds that are presented are not only those of Autumn but essentially the gentle sounds of the evening. Gnats wail and lambs bleat in the dusk. As night approaches within the final moments of the song, death is slowly approaching alongside of the end of the year. The full-grown lambs, like the grapes, gourds and hazel nuts will be harvested for the winter. The twittering swallows gather for departure, leaving the fields bare. The whistling red-breast and the chirping cricket are the common sounds of winter. In this stanza the songs of autumn becomes a song about life in general.[14] The references to Spring, the growing lambs and the migrating swallows remind the reader that the seasons are a cycle.

NOTE: 1. "Within the final moments of the poem, there is an introduction of the harvest and Autumn is manifested in the role of a harvester". This is plainly erroneous. The harvest and manifestation of Autumn as Harvester are not "within the final moments of the poem". They are the whole theme of the second stanza! The only indication of harvest in this stanza is the "stubble fields". I am, frankly, amazed, that anyone who knows anything about this poem or who has read it critically could be fighting to maintain such an inaccurate statement as this!

2. The wording "approaching alongside of" is very clumsy.

3. The meaningful point in the FA version (as against the incorrect one) has been retained- "In this stanza the songs of autumn becomes a song about life in general.[14]".

All very interesting, but belongs on talk-- have you personally verified any of the sources? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Will just stick the rest here, if you don't mind, then cut and paste the lot to the talk page. and delete this, if you consider it in appropriate. It seemed like the right place . Amandajm (talk) 10:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Paragraph 2

FA Version: The three stanzas of "To Autumn" are able to suggest both a movement from summer to early winter and also day turning into dusk. This progression is joined with a shift from the sensation of touch to sight and then to sound, creating a three part symmetry which is missing in Keats's other odes.[21] Although there is process and the suggestion of motion within the poem, there is a lack of action. Within the second stanza, autumn is described through metaphor as an exhausted labourer in lines 14–15. Near the end of the stanza, the steadiness of the gleaner in lines 19–20 emphasizes a motionlessness within the poem. The individuals are burdened or merely watch the events surrounding them. The poem as a whole creates within the imagination an image of death and a finality that is welcomed.

NOTE: This paragraph contains valuable referenced information. None of it has been lost

1. All the material in this paragraph has been incorporated into a) a comparison of this with the other odes b) the introduction of the article c) the three paragraphs which describe the three stanzas.

• Paragraphs 1,3,4

FA Version: All retained but placed after the description of the three stanzas.

Structure This section has been enlarged, and reoganised and has had examples drawn from the text added to it, illustrative of the forms and figures of speech described.

• Pargraph 1

FA Version: Like many of Keats's 1819 odes, the structure of the poem is that of an odal hymn.[9]

Editted version: "To Autumn" is a poem of three stanzas, each of eleven lines. Like others of Keats's odes written in 1819, the structure is that of an odal hymn, having three clearly defined sections corresponding to the Classical divisions of strophe, antistrophe, and epode. [23] The stanzas differ from those of the other odes through use of eleven lines rather than ten, and have a couplet placed before the concluding line of each stanza.[24]

NOTE: The editted version in the section Structure begins by stating exactly what the structure of the poem is.

• Paragraph 2

FA version: While the earlier 1819 odes perfected techniques and allowed for variations that appear within "To Autumn", Keats dispenses with some aspects of the previous poems (such as the narrator) and ensures that the poem deals only with concrete concepts.

Editted version: "To Autumn" employs poetical techniques which Keats had perfected in the five poems written in the Spring of the same year, but departs from them in some aspects, dispensing with the narrator and dealing with more concrete concepts.[25]

NOTE: Same ideas, reworded with "To Autumn" as the subject of the sentence, rather than "the earlier 1819 odes".

• Paragraph 3

FA version: There is no dramatic movement in "To Autumn" as there is in the earlier poems, and the poem attempts to discuss the poetic process without a progression of the temporal scene, an idea that Keats termed as "stationing".[10] Some of the language of the poem resembles phrases found in earlier poems Keats had written and there are similarities between the lines of "To Autumn" and lines in poems such as Endymion, Sleep and Poetry, and Calidore.[11]

Editted version: There is no dramatic movement in "To Autumn" as there is in many earlier poems; the poem progresses in its focus while showing little change in the objects it is focusing on. There is, in the words of Walter Jackson Bate, "a union of process and stasis", "energy caught in repose", an effect that Keats himself termed "stationing".[26] Twice at the beginning of verses he employs the dramatic Ubi sunt device associated with a sense of melancholy, and questions the personified subject: "Where are the songs of Spring?"[27]

NOTE: 1. Expanded with reference.

2. Discussion of "Ubi sunt" device.

3. FA sentence about "Some of the language of the poem resembles phrases found in earlier poems Keats had written and there are similarities between the lines of "To Autumn" and lines in poems such as Endymion, Sleep and Poetry, and Calidore.[11]" is retained and used in a paragraph where it relates better to the context.

• Paragraph 4.

FA version: Keats relies heavily on monosyllabic words and consonantal sounds – especially bilabial consonants – along with an emphasis on long vowels to control the flow of the poem. His syntax lacks hiatus and there is only a single instance medial inversion of an accent within the poem. However, he does incorporate the Augustan inversion (a reversal of an accent at the beginning of a line) approximately 4.2% of the time. Within his measure, Keats incorporates spondees in approximately 13.9% of his verses.

Editted version: Like the other odes, "To Autumn" is written in iambic pentameter (but greatly modified from the very beginning) with five stressed syllables to a line, each usually preceded by an unstressed syllable.[28] Keats varies this form by the employment of Augustan inversion, sometimes using a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable at the beginning of a line, including the first: "Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness"; and employing spondees in which two stressed syllables are placed together at the beginnings of both the following stanzas, adding emphasis to the questions that are asked: "Who hath not seen thee...", "Where are the songs...?"

NOTE: 1. The editted paragraph orders the discussion of structure, defining first the Rhythm. The Rhythm is iambic pentameter, and this poem is cited in various sources as an example. It is the first thing that should be to be mentioned, after the number and length of stanzas.

2. The editted version states, within the same sentence, that there are variations on this rhythm pattern, and spends the rest of the paragraph defining precisely what those variations are, and where they are significantly used in the poem. Difficult terms that a reader might otherwise have to look up are defined, with examples.

3. The FA version is a list of features with some percentages thrown in for good measure. While I have no doubt the book from which they come from is interesting, if the FA editor, let alone the reader, fails to comprehend that the cited work means that there are 13.9% spondees within a poem that is otherwise composed of iambics, then the percentage is absolutely meaningless! Moreover, spondees are something that is very much in the reading; some reciters will emphasise them and others will treat all but the most obvious as iambics.

4. The vowel and consonant sounds mentioned in the first sentence of the FA version are dealt with in a separate paragraph.

5. The poem doesn't lack hiatus. There are at least three examples of it.

• Paragraph 5

FA version: The rhyme follows a pattern of starting with a Shakespearian ABAB pattern which is followed by CDEDCCE rhyme scheme however in his second and third stanza it changes to CDECDDE. The verse differentiates itself from his previous odes through use of 11 line stanzas, instead of 10, with a couplet placed before the concluding line of each stanza.[12]

Editted version: The rhyme of "To Autumn" follows a pattern of starting each stanza with an ABAB pattern which is followed by rhyme scheme of CDEDCCE in the first verse and CDECDDE in the second and third stanzas.[29] In each case, there is a couplet before the final line. Some of the language of "To Autumn" resembles phrases found in earlier poems with similarities to Endymion, Sleep and Poetry, and Calidore.[30] Keats characteristically uses monosyllabic words such as "...how to load and bless with fruit the vines that round the thatch-eaves run." The words are weighted by the emphasis of bilabial consonants (b, m, p), with lines like "...for Summer has o'er-brimm'd their clammy cells." There is also an emphasis on long vowels which control the flow of the poem, giving it a slow measured pace: "...while barred clouds bloom the soft dying day". Despite the emphasis on long vowels, there is almost an absence of hiatus where two adjacent vowels occur without a separating consonant.[29]

NOTE: 1. This is an expansion.

2.This sentence is from another FA paragraph. "In each case, there is a couplet before the final line. Some of the language of "To Autumn" resembles phrases found in earlier poems with similarities to Endymion, Sleep and Poetry, and Calidore."

Critical reception

The FA version remains without significant change.

Amandajm (talk) 10:36, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Cut'npaste of comment

Will you all please start using the FAR page correctly? Most of this belongs on talk, not on FAR. Which person opining to keep this article, co-nominated by an ItsLassieTime sock, has checked all of the sources for copyvio and plagirism? Arguing over the prose and which version to keep without checking sources is somewhat pointless. Doing it via proxy even more so. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Response

• I am presuming that since the article got to FA, that there were no copyvios and that the references were sound. Editors who play a part in raising articles to FA generally question these things.

What I questioned, when I editted, was the great gaps in essential information, the odd construction of the article, and the apparent lack of real comprehension of the ideas that had been included.

• I can't find anything that is obvious plagiarism within the article as it stood when it was on "main page" because all the solid ideas are referenced, as they should be.
• None of the additional information that I have introduced is plagiarism- it mainly comprises reordering, padding out, explaining and illustrating points that had already been made, as well as removing erroneous, confusing and contradictory material.

Suggesting that the article should be returned to its previous state is ridiculous. I suppose that it is equally ridiculous to feel obliged to put a long summary of changes, to that effect.

Amandajm (talk) 10:51, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment and Complaint

• Comment: As I said previously, I don't have any problem with Ottava's sources. My only problem is that in editting material from these sources, Ottava seems to have somehow missed many of the most significant points that neede to be made about the poems. It isn't the sources that are problematic; it's the poor editors apparent comprehension of the material they contain and the poor arrangement of it into an article that are the problems.
• Complaint: I don't really think that Elen of the Roads, while acting by proxy for Ottava is the right person to be chopping large sections of other people's Comment off the archive page, particularly when the comments being chopped are those that refute Ottava's complaints.

I was confused and looked for the material on the articles talk page, but it was on the talk page of the archival review, which seems like an odd place for it. Never mind. It's back in the review archive, which is the appropriate place. Amandajm (talk) 11:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

As I said, people are free to move items either back here or to another place more appropriate. All I was doing was clearing this page. Ottava doesn't actually have the right to complain about changes, so there is no real need for a refutation of his complaints. Except insofar as analysis of the changes forms part of the FAR, there is no need for that either. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Elen of the Roads, it surprises me if you are not aware that all this questioning of the changes and the attempts to have edits by Alan W and me (and others) reversed was instigated by the banned Ottava, and has continued to be pushed by the banned Ottava, regardless of whether the said person has "rights to complain" or not! I do not intend to offend by shouting but if you miss this point, then you don't really understand why we are talking on this page at all, and why you are at present acting by proxy for this banned editor.

Let me make this absolutely clear: It all began with what appears to be a lie, from the banned Ottava

• Ottava, who is still pushing his case, initially complained that the article needed to be reverted because some vandal had inserted the word "cunnilingus" into the text. Because of this, on October 10 2010, User:Ipatrol reverted the whole article without checking to find the rude words. and left this edit summary: revert vandalism (per Ottava's good-faith suggestion on IRC
• I took Ipatrol to task for reverting a whole lot of edits, just to catch one rude word. I then searched diligently for the "vandalism" and could not find any trace of it, in any of the versions since the article appeared on the main page. In other words, Ottava had got Ipatrol going with a lie!
• Ottava is still trying to razz people up. One of the latest pieces of information to appear on this page is that Ottava (in the words of another editor who has suddenly appeared out of the blue with complaints) is an expert who is writing a dissertation on Keats.
• I have no idea who Ottava is, but I can tell you this, regardless of the fact that there is no problems with sources or plagiarism (as we keep assuring you), Ottava can hardly be writing a learned paper of any sort on this subject that will be of any standing. The reason that I know this is that this person shows no comprehension of the poetic forms that were named but not discussed in the FA version of the article.

Ottava actually argued with me over the inclusion of the terms personification and iambic pentameter, had omitted to use the word metaphor, and plainly did not understand the implications of the material quoted from Bate. The personification of Autumn is a key feature of this poem, which is widely used as an example in texts. Here's a list of the first page of numerous sites, learned and otherwise, that refer to "To Autumn" as an example of personification:[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

I suggest that we simply dismiss this entire discussion as being promoted by what on other pages is know as a Troll, someone who causes dissent for the sheer pleasure of annoying people! Amandajm (talk) 09:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Additional Comment

I think it might be worth adding my observation to Amandajm's (I can be long-winded, so I'll try to keep it brief) that not only do I see no copyvio/plagiarism from Bate 1963 (as I mentioned on the talk page here), I have never seen a trace of it in anything that Ottava Rima has contributed anywhere. In the case of one article that he started and I have now reworked and added to, I read every word of nearly all of the sources myself (it's a specialty of mine, so I wanted to know it all). And, whatever might be said for and against other aspects of the writing, there was never a whiff of copyvio in anything he wrote. Kathyrncelestewright, whatever she (I am assuming "she") did to get herself banned as a sockpuppet, does not seem to have done more than editing here—very good editing, in my opinion, but nothing that even hints at pasting in plagiarized text (I have just carefully examined the history). So, I think that spending any significant time on copyvio here is just chasing a red herring. --Alan W (talk) 06:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Apology Ottava Rima has located my talk page on Wikimedia Commons and expressed some criticism about a number of matters, most of which are dealt with but two apologies ought to be made here.

• I stated in the above that "Metaphor" had not been mentioned in the FA Version. It has been pointed out to me by Ottava Rima that metaphor had indeed been mentioned in this sentence:

Within the second stanza, autumn is described through metaphor as an exhausted labourer in lines 14–15. My apologies for this error.

• I must also apologise for suggesting that this person might be a troll, merely trying to cause dissent. I am assured that Ottava Rima is offended by that suggestion and is acting in good faith.

The question remains as to why Ottava Rima "in good faith" would claim that the word "cunnilingus" (which I looked up and now know how to spell) had been inserted into the text of the article, in order to get it reverted to his/her own preferred state. Perhaps that is one for the ArbCom?

All this is taking up a ridiculous amount of time and energy that would be better spent on other articles. Amandajm (talk) 09:17, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Note

This comment was left earlier on my talk page:

(begin quote)I don't understand that on the To Autumn page at FAR, that it was pointed out that the source for this reference clearly says that there is no Hiatus as verified here but Amandajm's change saying that there is hiatus is allowed to exist. Also, why is this claim that Bewell's text verifies that the poem is connected to British artworks is allowed to exist when the source was shown to not have anything to do with anything besides a poem by Leigh Hunt and no artwork? The user has been demonstrated to have inserted blatant misstruths and uses references that do not say what she claims. Aren't FARs supposed to remove problematic content like that and people found doing such things admonished for doing them? Here is a link for more background. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)(end quote)

Amanda, would you please respond to these criticisms? Dana boomer (talk) 14:01, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Response

• Hiatus occurs at "o'/er", "who/ever" and "dy/ing". While "o'er" might be regarded as a diphthong and even pronounced "or", the other two may not be so contracted and are examples of hiatus.

I have no idea why Bate says there is no hiatus. The word "hiatus" is a textbook example of "hi/atus". And so is "who/ever", which occurs in the poem. How/ever, one loses the hi/atus if one sticks another sound in the middle and says "die/ying" and "Who/wever".

I just rewrote the following sentence, because I checked a photocopy that Ottava uploaded (most of which is covered up, but I presume it is pertinent and actually refers to the poem in question). In the sentence Bate states "hiatus is non-existent" which is one point that Ottava Rima keeps accusing me of lying over. The point is that Bate is apparently in error, unless his understanding of "hiatus" differs a great deal from mine.

Bate's statement that hiatus is "non-existent" is a very odd claim, regardless of the authority on which he apparently makes it. I don't think that "hiatus" is a terribly significant point anyway, nowhere near as significant as the missing out of the notion of "Personification". The reference to "hiatus" could be entirely omitted, and the article would stand to lose nothing!

• With regards to Bewell and landscape, that reference is not to the book that Ottava Rima cited. It is a later book and the details of the book were added to the Reference section of the article when the reference was found. It can be accessed online.

The book is: Bewell, Alan. Romanticism and Colonial Disease. Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, 1999. ISBN 0-8018-6225-6 top of page 176. [12]

Here is the quotation from Bewell:

"To Autumn" is a veritable catalog of national imagery - the vines, apples, gourds, and hazelnuts, and the "thatch-eves"' "moss'd cottage-trees", "cyderpress[es]", "stubble-plains", and "garden-croft[s]" of English lanscape painting. [my bold]

NOTE: Ottava says he/she owns a copy and cannot find it on that page. Perhaps it is a reprint. The reference is in lines 2-7 or there abouts, on page 176. Just click on the arrow above. Amandajm (talk) 05:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Explanation I have just had a message from Ottava Rima pointing out that I have made yet another error- (minor but confusing) The reason why Ottava Rima could not find the info in Bewell (in a hard copy rather than following the online link) was that I wrote "p.176" for "p.179". It is correct in the article but wrong in the above comment. Well, at least that's sorted out.....No apology for calling me a "liar" but that is obviously too much to expect! Amandajm (talk) 00:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I just checked. You were right the first time, Amanda: your Bewell citation, based on the passage you quoted above, should be to page 176. I am going to change it in the article. --Alan W (talk) 01:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

(Out of interest) I have just been doing a bit of my own OR into this hiatus thing, with regards to Keats great contemporaries, Shelley and Byron. Shelley uses "Who art..." and similar questioning or personal forms fairly frequently, but his poetry appears to have rare occurences of hiatus, other than those instances. In the brief check I did on Byron's shorter poems, it also occurs rarely. I didn't look at Childe Harold or Don Juan. It would seem that the occasional occurence in Keats may be the norm (within the works of these three). Amandajm (talk) 06:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC) editted again Amandajm (talk) 07:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

• Quick question: Why have my acknowledgement of error (over "metaphor") and my apology (over questioning whether Ottava was a troll) been ignored, while the complaining and accusing continues?
• Personification The penultimate question for Ottava Rima is: Why was it not mentioned in the FA version of the article?
• Cunnilingus....and why was Ipatrol informed that this word had been written into the subsequent changes, so the he/she reverted all the edits?

These are the questions that need answering, satisfactorily, before Ottava Rima gains any credibility.

Amandajm (talk) 07:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Hiatus again. I fixed the problem, pointed out by Ottava, of the conflict between the statement that there were "few" and the reference which states there are none by removing the mention of "hiatus" altogether. It's an insignificant point, and it's better not to drop the Bate reference which is ggod for the rest of the paragraph. Amandajm (talk) 08:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

More on Hiatus, thinking about this a bit more.... It is possible that Bate was looking for the most obvious (and common) examples of hiatus: "I am", "You are", "Thou art" "S/he is", "They are". In all these cases the two vowels between which the hiatus occurs are in different words. It is possible that Bate simply failed to notice the couple of examples mentioned above, "Whoever" and "dying", because the pairs of vowels are in the same word, and not so obvious. Perhaps this explains the error on the part of Bate. Amandajm (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have found time to get to a library that has some of these sources, and I have now investigated further. One thing of some interest in this context, I think, is the discovery that the book in which Bate puzzlingly declares the absence of hiatus in "To Autumn", The Stylistic Development of Keats, was actually a very early work. Rather than being published in 1962, as the original listing in the References would suggest, it is a reprint in that year of a book Bate wrote when he was about 27 years old. Not that this fact makes it juvenilia or something to be dismissed; but I think that this early study may include some careless or hasty readings that Bate might well have regretted in his later years. We may never know, as Bate died eleven years ago. But I thought it worth mentioning. --Alan W (talk) 02:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Additional closing note - Most of the outstanding issues seem to have been resolved in the voluminous discussion above. I would suggest that Amanda seek out any remaining comments and make sure they are addressed. I realize there is some dissent to the way the article has been edited, and if any editors still have serious concerns about this article FA status it may be brought back to FAR in no less than three months. Dana boomer (talk) 00:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.