Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Kinks' 1965 US tour/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 8 June 2023 [1].

The Kinks' 1965 US tour[edit]

Nominator(s): Tkbrett (✉) 22:32, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the disastrous tour of America that left the English rock band the Kinks banned from performing in the country for the next four years. Tkbrett (✉) 22:32, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PMC[edit]

Hello! Staking a claim since I enjoyed doing the GA review so much. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:39, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I was already pretty thorough in the GA review, but I note some quite a bit of revision since, so I'll go through again from the top.
  • "Page began co-managing the Kinks..." The opening sentence calls Page the personal manager. What's the relationship between that title and the other two co-managers?
    • I see that this is addressed further down but not sure if it should be consolidated.
      • I added a bit to that sentence to hopefully help things out, as the management situation was quite complicated and details go beyond the scope of this page. Kinks biographer Thomas M. Kitts writes that "The three managers and [the band's publishing firm] evolved into a complex entanglement that took years of litigation to sort out" (Kitts 2008, p. 33). In interviews over ensuing decades, Page regularly said that Wace and Collins did nothing besides collect their paycheques, while Wace and Collins basically said the exact same thing about Page. Kitts concludes: "With all the uncertainty and hecticness [sic] of those pre- and early Kinks days it is impossible for anyone to say who did what."
  • "the Kinks were initially the most popular of those groups, made up of bands like the Rolling Stones, the Yardbirds and Them." the grammar feels off here. The groups weren't made up of bands. Maybe shift the band list to earlier, something like " A second wave of British acts, including the Rolling Stones, the Yardbirds, and Them, entered the American charts in early 1965, and the Kinks were initially the most popular of these."
    • Yes, I agree. Fixed.
  • I still think the paragraph about sound quality and the lost guitar should be split, as they are different ideas
    • Split.
  • "advanced work" - would "advance work" be more correct?
    • Yes, fixed.
  • "The Kinks experienced regular fanaticism from their fans, many of whom were teenage girls." reads a bit oddly. A more natural phrasing might be something like "The Kinks' audience, many of whom were teenage girls, were prone to fanatical behavior" perhaps. A link to fan (person) might not hurt here either, rather than fanaticism
    • Your wording is much better. I think I'll avoid the linking though, as seems a bit like WP:OVERLINK.
  • Hilarious use of the pull quote from the Journal-Register
    • I found quite a few of these floating around, but I think this one works best because it conveys more than one idea: (1) the fanaticism which characterized the band's concerts and (2) the disdain and confusion the older generation held for the younger generation's music. Most quotations I have found only convey one of those thoughts.
  • I tweaked "for enjoyment" to "to amuse himself"; the first sounds like he's pestering Page to provide enjoyment (as in "take me to a movie I'm bored"), but the second makes it more clear that he's being annoying for the purpose of being annoying
    • I agree, yours is clearer.
  • I really have no additional gripes after this, the prose is clear and gets to the point without being boring
    • Thank you!
  • The kissing anecdote is so much funnier with the additional context
    • I thought so too.
  • "The Springfield show was organised by future serial killer John Wayne Gacy" WHAT
    • I was turning this bit around for a while because in current news articles or blogposts, it is often a point of emphasis or even the leading thought. But none of the band biographers really make a big deal of it because the band probably did not interact with Gacy at all, or if they did it was minimal. In a 2000 interview, bassist Pete Quaife said for the first time that Gacy invited the band to his home, and that they left after he gave them weird vibes, particularly his pushing drinks on the eighteen-year-old Dave Davies along with a weird smell in his house. Band biographers point out a few reasons to doubt this story. Mainly, it is entirely inconsistent with Gacy's known biography. As well, Quaife apparently developed a reputation for building up stories or even making things up in interviews. In a later interview, Ray mentioned the story but he made it clear that he never interacted with Gacy, thereby contradicting Quaife's point that the whole band was there. I think confining it to a note in this article was the best way to approach it. Besides, there's no place for it in the body, what with it being nothing more than an anecdote.
  • Good workaround for the absent set list

Another excellent piece of work! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:33, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again, thanks so much Premeditated Chaos! I'm really glad to hear how much you have been enjoying these articles. Tkbrett (✉) 19:25, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They're just wonderfully unpredictable articles. Everyone in and around this band seems to be getting up to something bizarre every time you turn around and I'm so here for it. I'm a support on prose :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:08, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ojorojo[edit]

I've read a couple of older Kinks's biographies and never felt that their blacklisting in the US was adequately explained. This article definitely corrects that. It's very comprehensive and extensively referenced and, after several readings, I can't find any real issues. I do notice some overlinking that may be more personal preference. In the lead, linking to articles about The Kinks' 1965 tour of Australasia, Hong Kong and Singapore, The Kinks' 1965 UK tour, Denmark Productions Ltd. v Boscobel Productions Ltd., and The Kinks' 1969 North American tour seem to distract from what should be an overview and are better linked in the main body, where there is more context. Also, links to terms that most readers of an English-language encyclopedia should be familiar with or don't provide much useful additional information are in the lead and in the main body. These include concert tour, promoters, unions (2×, the following US union is already linked), cultural phenomenon, musical variety programmes, headliners, encore, Englishness, queers, miked, marquee, bill, fanaticism, clubs, communists, US Army, branch, music festival, and cult following. Again, this may reflect personal preference, but is something to consider. As per MOS:DTAB, accessibility may be improved by adding ! scope="row" to entries in the table. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:04, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ojorojo, I really appreciate your comments. I agree there were quite a few cases of over-linking and I have removed most of the ones you listed. The only ones I left were promoters (a specific profession people may not have knowledge of) and musical variety programmes (no teenager today knows what the hell these were). Regarding the red-linking in the lead, do you mean I should de-link them or remove mention of them all together? I think removing the links would be appropriate while leaving the red-links in the body. I fixed the MOS:DTAB issues. Tkbrett (✉) 21:27, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Blue or red, I try to keep links in the lead to a minimum. "in Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong and Singapore" and "concerts in the United Kingdom" are soon linked again in the first paragraph of the following "Background" section, which should be sufficient. I would de-link them in the lead and keep them in the main body, but I'll leave that up to you. The rest looks good, so I'll support. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ojorojo: Thanks. I've removed the red-links from the lead and left them in the body, as I really have no idea when I'll get around to creating those articles, but if it comes down to personal preference, I can't say I agree with removing the already established blue-link. Tkbrett (✉) 11:58, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ChrisTheDude[edit]

  • "at the start of each of concert" - there's a stray "of" in there
  • "The Kinks wore matching red jackets, frilly shirts, black pants" - this article seems to be written in British English, so unless we are discussing their undergarments, that last word should be "trousers"
  • "while dispute arose when the Kinks..." => "while a dispute arose when the Kinks...."
  • "contributing a growing feeling among the band...." => "contributing to a growing feeling among the band...."
  • "but the session proceeded anyways" => "but the session proceeded anyway"
  • "in-front of around 15,000 concertgoers" => "in front of around 15,000 concertgoers"
  • Think that's it - great read! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much ChrisTheDude. I have fixed all the points mentioned above. Tkbrett (✉) 11:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Media review - pass[edit]

  • Images appear to be appropriately licensed.--NØ 07:35, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Placement of images is OK, as is sourcing of captions. Doesn't seem like all images have ALT text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have not included alt text where doing so would be redundant, so I have instead added "alt=refer to caption" per MOS:ALT § Captions and nearby text. Tkbrett (✉) 11:13, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    MaranoFan, I am not sure if this is encompassed within a media review, but I found audio from an interview done during the tour and I added it to the article via an inline external media template. Having originally been released on the 2014 CD-set The Anthology 1964–1971, the audio was uploaded to the Kinks' official YouTube channel, so I think there are no issues with linking it. The video may not be playable in the United Kingdom, but it is playable in the United States and Canada, and therefore viewable to the majority of English-language Wikipedia viewers. Tkbrett (✉) 13:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since it's externally hosted, it does not affect the media review.--NØ 13:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, it could, since we shouldn't link to copyright violations (WP:LINKVIO) but if it's uploaded on the official channel there shouldn't be an issue. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:26, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I thought so too. The video's description specifies that the copyright holder provided the audio for upload to YouTube. Tkbrett (✉) 16:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass[edit]

Reviewing this version, it seems like all sources show the requisite information and the formatting is largely consistent. Keeping in mind that I don't know of the reliability of music sources in detail nor have access to most sources. I don't know if the three hour thing in #47 is generalizable the way the article does. I can't find Schultz, Judith L. at Decatur Herald nor Rau, Peggy at Los Angeles Evening Citizen News. Who is Black, Johnny at MOJO? How do we know that 3500 dollars then equates 30000 in 2021? Are AllMusic, Faulk, Barry J., Christopher Hjort and Dave Davies a high-quality source? This URL is apparently broken. I assume there are no doubts about Johnny Rogan's reliability, given some comments on his article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk • contribs) 08:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Concert length: Yes, you are right it is not generalizable. Instead, I have added two other citations – one says it went on two-and-a-half hours and another writes "long, long hours" – while also adjusting the phrasing to only say that it lasted for several hours.
  • I'm not surprised you can't find Schultz and Rau, as it seems they both worked as journalists at small-to-medium-sized daily-newspapers in the 1960s. Schultz's byline indicates she was a staff writer at the Decatur Herald. As for Rau, she was photo-editor for the Hollywood Citizen-News. (I can't seem to clip on Newspapers.com as my free subscription has apparently ended, but I found a profile of Rau in a Nashville Banner article from 14 September 1963).
  • Johnny Black has worked as a music journalist since the 1970s, writing columns in The Times, MOJO and Q, among others. Here is a bio at Rock's Backpages.
  • In this case, I believe the Inflation template draws from the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis's website. I have added the template {{Inflation/fn}} as recommended at Template:Inflation § Citing inflation data sources.
  • WP:ALLMUSIC writes that "Some editors question the accuracy of [AllMusic] for biographical details and recommend more reliable sources when available." That entry does not expressly prohibit using AllMusic, and as I do not have major doubts regarding Stephen Thomas Erlewine's reliability – he was written for Rolling Stone, Billboard and Spin – I have left him in the article while also adding an extra reliable source where he was the only source.
  • Barry J. Faulk is a doctor and professor at the University of Florida and has written extensively on British identity. Christopher Hjort's day-by-day guide to the Byrds is meticulous in its detail, as mentioned by several reviews sourced on his Wikipedia article. Dave Davies was the Kinks' lead guitarist. His autobiography, published by Hyperion Books in 1996, is an invaluable source in Kinks related articles for detailing his later reflections. Academic Carey Fleiner, who wrote The Kinks: A Thoroughly English Phenomenon in 2017, included Dave's autobiography in her list of further reading.
  • Due to copyright restrictions, the URL may or may not work depending on the viewer's location. I do not think it is accessible in the United Kingdom, but it is accessible in the United States and Canada, and therefore is viewable by the majority of English-language wiki readers. For that reason, I think it is best to leave it.
  • Next to Kinks researcher Doug Hinman, Johnny Rogan is the most meticulous and reliable of Kinks researchers. His great research is detailed by sources on his Wiki page, as you mentioned.
Thanks Jo-Jo Eumerus. My responses are above. Tkbrett (✉) 12:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jo-Jo Eumerus, any come back? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:31, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like this passes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by SC[edit]

Lead
  • Do the sources use the phrase "an abandonment"? If so, I presume—given the legal tussles that followed—they are referring to Abandonment (legal), which should be linked (both here and lower down).
  • All of the sources use the word "abandonment" because this was the word bandleader Ray Davies used in subsequent interviews. He was not using the term in a legal context though, so I do not think it would be appropriate to link it where he uses it, but only where it came up in the legal proceeding. There, I have piped "legal abandonment" to Abandonment (legal).
Background
  • "the Beatles experienced in the United States": this is the second mention, so you can drop to "the US"
  • Done.
  • "the Kinks visited the United States": ditto
  • Done.
Final preparations
  • "about the United States": US
  • Done.
  • "nation-wide" - > nationwide
  • Done.
  • "By early 1965, the Kinks had developed a reputation for violence and aggression": was this reputation widely known, or was it an industry-only knowledge? You go on to say that the hi-hat stand incident was downplayed, so I'm wondering if the wider public knew this – which would be worth mentioning. (The main The Kinks article says that "Tensions began to emerge", but no reference to anything like "violence and aggression", so I'm wondering whether this was public or not.)
  • The three sources I have used there do not specify, but I think anyone reading the newspapers would have been aware. There was a riot at a Kinks concert in Copenhagen on 9 April 1965; the Associated Press newswire picked up the story and it was published in newspapers across the United States. Here is the AP story printed in Nashville's daily newspaper The Tennessean (Here in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and here in the Oakland Tribune). The three sources I have used (Hasted, Savage and Fleiner) only say that the band had developed a reputation for violence and aggression, without specifying whether it was widely known or industry-only knowledge, but I added a bit from Johnny Rogan's book, as he mentions that the Cardiff incident was widely reported in the British press, leading British hoteliers to impose an unofficial ban on the Kinks. I added both of these things to the article.

Done to the end of final prep: more to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 21:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks SchroCat. My responses are above. Tkbrett (✉) 13:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just one more from the remainder of the article:

Repertoire
  • "all of which was custom-ordered" - > "all of which were custom-ordered"
  • Fixed.

That's it. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again SchroCat. Tkbrett (✉) 16:46, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Happy with this - a good article, pleasing to read and passes the FA criteria to my mind. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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