Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sumitro Djojohadikusumo/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 2 October 2022 [1].

Sumitro Djojohadikusumo[edit]

Nominator(s): Juxlos (talk) 05:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an Indonesian economist/politician/rebel/oligarch/aristocrat/statesman, depending on when and who you ask (well except "economist", everyone agrees on that), who formed Indonesia's economic policies from 1950 to 1957 and 1968 to the 1980s and arguably to this day. Recently passed through a GAR by Goldsztajn, who provided extensive additional sourcing. Sources are currently a mix of fine details from Indonesian language sources and academic but broader sourcing from various Indonesia scholars or economic historians. Juxlos (talk) 05:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Kaiser matias[edit]

I'm going to look over this in the next day or so, and commenting here so I don't forget. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay, but here we go. I haven't focused on wording or anything, but instead substance and clarity:

  • Would it be worth noting the years he was active in government in the first paragraph of the lead? I feel it would help give context to his era for those of us not familiar with the Sukarno and Suharto eras.
  • 1950 - 1978 good?
  • Same with this sentence: "After the handover of sovereignty in the Dutch–Indonesian Round Table Conference..." A year would be helpful.
  • Added
  • "In the leadup to the 3 July affair in 1946, Sumitro alongside Sjahrir and welfare minister Darmawan Mangunkusumo were kidnapped by disgruntled army units." This seems notable, but there's no mention of how or when he was released. Can you provide any information on that?
  • His role in it is marginal to say the least (several accounts of the incident only mentions "Sjahrir and others"), so I attempted to make a single sentence to summarize it.
  • The final paragraph of the "Diplomatic talks" section makes several references to debt in terms of guilders (6 billion guilders, 500 million guilders, 4.3 billion guilders). Is there any context for what type of value is being referred to here? I don't mean an inflation calculator or anything, but a reference to a contemporary state budget or something would help give an idea for the reader.
  • Maybe an USD conversion? The sources I use do not directly use a comparison, and the Indonesian currency at the time was unstable enough to be cut in half, plus the source gives an explicit USD figure.
That may be good, yeah.
  • "Within the group, Sumitro was considered an imporant When the federal "United Republic of Indonesia"..." I think there's something missing in that first half there (aside from the spelling of "imporant").
  • Botched copy paste of the previous version of the last sentence in the previous paragraph. removed.
  • I wonder if it would be better to move the "Death and funeral" sentences to the "Family and personal life" section, as it seem a little redundant to separate them, especially as the former is only two sentences long.
  • Fair enough. Did just that.
  • I also made a few minor grammatical edits myself, though nothing of substance was changed.

Overall a solid article, and seems comprehensive and not difficult to follow. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kaiser matias: Issues addressed. Juxlos (talk) 13:27, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also to note, I added a couple sentences based off a 1999 interview in "Legacy". Mostly, it was about him addressing his own legacy and image really late in life. Juxlos (talk) 15:41, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great thanks for the update. If you adjust the financial detail above, I'm good here. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:16, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The USD has been added ($1.13 billion). Juxlos (talk) 04:17, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful, and I'm happy to support. Well done. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the map
  • Don't use fixed px size
  • For the first two points - should I just use "thumb"?
  • Some images are missing alts
  • I am unfamiliar with alts - what do you mean?
  • File:First_Indonesian_Delegation_United_Nations.jpg: who is the original author of this work, and what is its status in the US?
  • I had assumed it was an Indonesian official photograph, but turns out it's cropped from a LIFE magazine 1948 photo. Not in the PD yet, unfortunately, so removed.
  • File:Soemitro_Djojohadikusumo,_Menneg_Riset_-_Anggota_Kabinet_Pembangunan_II.jpg: what is the status of this work in the US? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:15, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1973 publication by Indonesian government. URAA tag added.
@Nikkimaria: Some points addressed, and some questions. Juxlos (talk) 05:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Alts added and handled the fixed px sizes. Juxlos (talk) 17:17, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • Citations 17 and 18 have error messages.
  • Forgot to add the book in question. Fixed.
  • "was an Indonesian economist and politician. One of the country's most influential economists". Repetition of economist. Maybe "was an Indonesian politician and one of the country's most influential economists"
  • Changed
  • "Returning to Indonesia following the conclusion of the Second World War, he was thereafter assigned to the country's diplomatic mission in the United States" This implies that Indonesia was independent. You should clarify that it was then the Dutch East Indies. Also you say here in the US, but below in London.
  • The term “independent” is a can of worms between 17 August 1945 and 27 December 1949, but "Indonesia" was already an accepted term for the Indies for a while then and they were used colloquially. The Dutch certainly did not have much control over the region in 1945. I would maintain the term. Alternatively, I can say “return to Java” - still true, but no controversy on naming.
  • "He joined the new Republican government, becoming an assistant to Prime Minister Sutan Sjahrir and later worked at the Ministry of Finance.[16] In late June 1946, as part of the leadup to the 3 July affair," This again assumes too much knowledge in the reader. Did the Dutch allow the new goveernment? What was the 3 July affair?
  • “Did the Dutch allow the new government?” - no, and they fought a war over it. Independence wars tend to be like that. I suppose I’ll have to mention how this government is (about to be in mid-1945) fighting the Dutch?
  • Added "declared itself independent from Dutch colonial rule" - sufficient?
  • I would add "with Sukarno as president" for clarity. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added
  • Reordered the section on the 3 July stuff.
  • " During the political wrangling and coup attempt that followed, the group was first relocated to Yogyakarta before being released after the coup failed when Sukarno refused the demands." Coup attempt by who? What ws Sukarno's position and how was he in a position to refuse demands? You have not previously mentioned him in the main text.
  • Elaborated on the coup and gave Sukarno his title.
  • "Due to the Dutch embargo on Indonesian trade". Why were the Dutch embargoing trade? Was Indonesia independent at that point?
  • "the Republican city of Cirebon". What does republican city mean? Were some cities supporting independence and some the Dutch?
  • Clarified both points.
  • I will suspend comments at present as I find this article too difficult to follow because it assumes that the reader has an expert knowledge of Indonesian history. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:38, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough. Give me a bit to read through the later sections and see what seems a little too that. Juxlos (talk) 13:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dudley Miles: Care to give it another look? Note that what I consider "obvious to not require explanation" may differ, so do say if something is not elaborated enough. Juxlos (talk) 14:23, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is much clearer now, but see one point above.
  • Also "Sumitro (far left), in the Dutch–Indonesian Round Table Conference." You mean far left standing? You should say so.
  • Seated, actually. He's partly out from the picture but his nametag and face is there.
  • "Still in 1946, he was assigned to the Indonesian delegation". It would be better to give the month rather than "Still in 1946", if this information is available. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dudley Miles: I do not have the information, unfortunately, source says 1946. Maybe one of the sources I only have partial access to contains it, but not at the moment. Helps that the delegation didn't exactly travel on jet planes back then. Juxlos (talk) 15:26, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In his biography, Sumitro claimed" If he was doing the claiming, then it must have been an autobiography, not a biography.
  • Changed
  • "he was rejected due to his age". Rejected due to age normally means too old, but in this case must mean too young, so you should say so.
  • Changed
  • "Sumitro noted that he continued to fundraise for the cause of Republican Spain". "stated" would be better than "noted". Also "continued" implies you have mentioned fundraising previously, but you have not.
  • Changed
  • "he helped provide aid to a number of stranded Indonesian sailors in Rotterdam, as the Perhimpoenan Indonesia association itself took part in the Dutch resistance mostly by distributing anti-Nazi pamphlets." This seems to connect two separate statement. What does "as" mean here? Maybe "he helped provide aid to a number of stranded Indonesian sailors in Rotterdam, and joined the Perhimpoenan Indonesia association, which supported the Dutch resistance mostly by distributing anti-Nazi pamphlets."
  • Sumitro wasn't part of the organization. I decided to include it there as I felt it gave some contrast.
  • "(after the Natsir Cabinet's collapse)". So he left office with the cabinet's collapse but his plan was accepted? You should clarify. (I see that you say below that he left office.)
  • Reworded. Better?
  • "which he would later utilize to form economic policies when he returned to being a government minister". "form" is an odd word here. Maybe draft or develop.
  • Changed
  • "To diversify the views of Indonesian economists, whose education at that time was still dominated by European curriculum, Sumitro arranged for an exchange program sponsored by the Ford Foundation whereas American professors would teach in Indonesia and Indonesian students would spend several years in the United States," I suggest "broaden the knowledge" instead of "diversify the views". Also "whereas" should be "whereby".
  • Fixed
  • "to produce a recommendation" Surely recommendations, not just one recommendation?
  • Well, it was one document, but it did have multiple recommendations self-evidently
  • "Schacht's report called for much increased foreign investment and advisory". What does "advisory" mean here? It does not make sense.
  • "Expertise" is probably a better term?
  • "In the Wilopo Cabinet, Sumitro was given the office of Minister of Finance". When?
  • Gave date
  • "accused the policies to be an indirect attempt at forcing the capital flight of Dutch firms". This is ungrammatical and unclear. You can accuse a person, not a policy.
  • "Claimed that the policies were an indirect attempt" - more appropriate?
  • "it was decided to abolish the Benteng program in order to increase domestic production". If I understood correctly, you described the Benteng program as restricting imports in order to increase domestic production, but now you say it was abolished to increase domestic production. This is confusing.
  • I described Benteng as a trade policy aimed at giving more share of the economy to native Indonesian importers in contrast to Chinese Indonesian ones, not to increase production.
  • "Sumitro lobbied for the development of Indonesian human capital in exchange for a number of fiscal incentives". I do not understand this.
  • Better now? Reworded it.
  • "many of the leaders under Banteng Council" "many of the leaders of the Banteng Council"?
  • Fixed
  • "Following the resignation of Mohammad Hatta from the office of vice president in December 1956, the movement received significant support from regional civilian leaders" Why was the resignation of Hatta significant? You need to explain.
  • "replacement of Abdul Haris Nasution in the military". As above. Why was he significant?
  • I could not quite put the context in the prose appropriately, so I put it in a note instead.
  • "Following the fall of Sukarno and the ascent of Suharto as president" You should give the date.
  • Added year
  • He was abroad at the time and I could not find anything about his comments/reaction to it. One infers “good riddance”, but [citation needed].
  • "He was also influenced by the Fabian Society of the London School of Economics." Of the LSE is wrong. The society founded the LSE as one of its many activities - it was not of the LSE.
  • Removed the LSE then
  • "While politically under PSI". What does this mean?
  • Member of PSI. Reworded.
  • "Sumitro's parents with his four children, 1963." Were his parents still alive in 1963? Do you mean Sumitro and his wife with their children?
  • Yes, his mother and father. Explicitly from the source of the image.
  • Is there any evidence that he was corrupt or corruptly abused his positions? Dudley Miles (talk) 17:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Never convicted or stood trial in a court. There’s mention of the investigation, which is relevant to his entire career, but no convictions.
  • @Dudley Miles: further comments addressed. Juxlos (talk) 14:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment[edit]

More than six weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination attracts significant further movement towards a consensus to promote over the next two or three days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to time this out now and archive it, but I will give it another 24 hours. See if you can get some movement towards a consensus to promote by then. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:31, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dudley Miles: mind speeding up the review a bit? Juxlos (talk) 16:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but time is up on this one. I am archiving it and the usual two-week hiatus will apply.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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