Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Operation Varsity

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:01, 5 July 2008 [1].

---

Operation Varsity

Self-Nominator(s): Skinny87 (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has been through a number of reviews, including two peer-reviews, a GA and A-Class review, and I believe it to be upto the quality expected of a FA-Class article. Skinny87 (talk) 17:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• Use en dashes for page ranges in the references per WP:DASH.

Done

• A few references have spaces before them, etc., when they shouldn't, per WP:FOOTNOTE. For instance, "8,000 (est.) [2]" → "8,000 (est.)[2]", "Ardennes. [9]" → "Ardennes.[9]", "Wesel. [11]" → "Wesel.[11]", and "24th [43], 21" → "24th,[43] 21" (in this last case, references go after punctuation marks).

Cam kindly did that for me, so Done

• En dash should also be used for ranges, like "was 3-4 times"

Done as well, I believe

• If you're working on Airborne Divisions, 82nd Airborne Division (United States) could always use some help; it's something I've always wanted to get to FA... :)

I'd love to, believe me, and it's on my list. Perhaps a joint collaboration later on?

Perhaps! Gary King (talk) 17:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• There are a few more minor MOS issues. For instance, "Eric Bols" and "Matthew B. Ridgway" should have spaces between them and the flag. "16, 870[1]" shouldn't have a space in the number.

Done!

Gary King (talk) 18:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• A first thought: could you recreate the two maps, so they are higher quality, and preferably using SVG? They stick out rather. Best, Gwernol 18:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea how to do that, sorry. Will it fail the review? Skinny87 (talk) 18:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that could fail this FAC, especially since it's not expected that everyone can do this. I do suggest that you ask an image editor to help you with this, though (although I can't think of any off the top of my head at the moment.) Gary King (talk) 18:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have also tagged the images appropriately. Gary King (talk) 18:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I know that User:EyeSerene is capable of helping via request, as he did significant image work for me for BoVR. EnigmaMCMXC is also pretty good at that stuff. Cam (Chat) 18:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I've uploaded a quick attempt at converting this to SVG at Image:OperationVarsity1945.svg. I am not anywhere close to a military expert, so please let me know if this isn't accurate - I have tried to reproduce the contents of the original, just updating to vector format and adding a little color. I'm happy to continue to improve this, if you think its helpful. Best, Gwernol 19:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)That looks absolutely smashing, thanks for the help!

No problem. I'll do the second map tonight. Best, Gwernol 23:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• In the first quotebox, the one with the Operation Orders for the army, the source of the quote shouldn't be in brackets.

Done!

• Refs 33 & 37 need to be combined.

Er, not sure how to do that, need to ask someone.

I'll fix it, you just ref-name the thing and then just work it like you would a "cite book" template. Cam (Chat) 23:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

• In the section detailing the aircraft shortages, would it be possible to work in a quote from a historian concerning the aircraft shortage problem during Varsity?

Don't have my books on me, but I should be able to. I did pull some other quote boxes earlier from the article wen one editor commented they looked unbalanced.Skinny87 (talk) 22:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Not like a quotebox, but like a <blockquote></blockquote> thing.

Cam (Chat) 02:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't find a quote that would be long enough for a block quote. All those I've cited simply say there was a lack of aircraft, preventing the 13th from participating. Devlin says about a sentence, and even Flanagan just says 'Originally, Gen. Lewis H. Brereton, commander of the First Allied Airborne Army, had included the US 13th Airborne Division in the operation, but a lack of aircraft precluded their use.' No-one really goes into any detail. So, I don't know what to do. Skinny87 (talk) 17:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, it's not grounds for an oppose, simply a suggestion. I'm able to take this stuff in stride. Cam (Chat) 18:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Other than that, looks pretty good. Just fix the MoS problems with the footnotes outlined above, and it should be good.

Support. Prose of the article is excellent, very well-referenced, maps are splendid SVG-rendered. Little to no objection from me. Cam (Chat) 03:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC) (DISCLOSURE: I have done significant copyediting on this article from before its GA and onward, so my position concerning this article isn't entirely neutral).

Comments

• Footnote 23 the Hagerman article, the article actually appeared in the February 1998 issue of the magazine, the bibliographical reference should reflect that, I would think.

Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added that it was in the February issue in the reference, hopefuly that's okay the way I put it. Skinny87 (talk) 17:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• Here's a minor question: is "Drop-Zone" supposed to be capitalized (when not used as a specific title, like "Drop-Zone B") and hyphened? I've only ever seen it as "drop zone".

Changed all instances to 'drop zone', so Done.

• I would suggest changing the word "practically" in the line "but by 11:00 hours the Drop-Zone was practically clear of enemy forces" here, it just doesn't sound right to me. Maybe "...was all but completely clear of..."? If you've got a better wording, that's fine too.

Changed it to the suggested wording.

• Other than those two relatively minor concerns, I see no other real issues with this article. The prose is very good; it's comprehensive, neutral, and well sourced. The photos are properly licensed, and the maps have been upgraded from the lower-quality versions I had originally uploaded from the US Army War College source. I would support this FAC, but I've been involved with the article for some time, even before Skinny's overhaul of the article beginning in April, and I don't feel that it would be appropriate to do so. Parsecboy (talk) 01:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Support A very well written article that is neutral, stable, and well referenced. I think this is featured article quality and deserves the star. JonCatalán (talk) 16:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• Notes, consistency in citations, some have p. for plural pages, while others have pp. Please check them all; I fixed the one I saw. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've checked the article, and I think all of them have been switched. Cam (Chat) 05:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, yes, I never saw that one. I've checked all of the others. Skinny87 (talk) 09:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• "Lieutenant-Colonel Otway, who wrote an official history of the British airborne forces during the Second World War, stated in the history that Operation Varsity highlighted the vulnerability of glider-borne units" First off, the second "history" is redundant, also you use Second World War here when World War II is used elsewhere, you need to remain consistent.
• Unlike Market-Garden, the airborne forces would only be dropped a relatively short distance behind German lines, thereby ensuring that reinforcements in the form of Allied ground forces would be able to link up with them within a short period, and not risking the same type of disaster that had befallen the British 1st Airborne Division when it had been isolated and practically annihilated by German infantry and armour at Arnhem. This sentence seems very long, can it be broken up?
• It was also decided by the commander of the 1st Allied Airborne Army, General Lewis Brereton who commanded all Allied airborne forces, including US XVIII Airborne Corps, that the two airborne divisions participating in Operation Varsity would be dropped simultaneously in a single "lift", instead of being dropped several hours apart, which also occurred during Operation Market-Garden. Same with that sentence.
• Make sure that dates are consistent within the article. Several of the 23 March are written as March 23, which is inconsistent.
• MOS:IMAGE recommends that lead images be no smaller than 300px.
• Other than that, I added in a comma. The prose seems to be in good shape, the images are all free, evenly spaced and relevant, from the sources I have read, it seems to be comprehensive and well-referenced. So, fix my problems and I will give it another read-through. Woody (talk) 20:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and switched the one instance of "Second World War" to "World War II" per your suggestion, as well as split the two overly long sentences you pointed out. The dates are now formatted properly, and the infobox image has been expanded to 300px. Thanks for your comments and suggestions. Parsecboy (talk) 20:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep, stuck my comments and Support now. Good work. Woody (talk) 21:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Crikey, thanks Parsecboy for doing all that Cheers! Skinny87 (talk) 13:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

No problem! I'd like to see the article pass as much as you would, so I'll do as much as I can to help. Parsecboy (talk) 14:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.