Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mozart in Italy

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:32, 31 January 2009 [1].

Mozart in Italy[edit]

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk)

This is a companion piece to Mozart family Grand Tour. It continues the story of the travels and musical education of the child genius Mozart, this time in Italy where he learns to write opera, gets a knighthood from the pope, meets Bonnie Prince Charlie and gets chased by brigands on the road to Rimini. And that's just the first of the three journeys! Thanks to the peer reviewers who gave the article a thorough going-over, and to Ruhrfisch who rescued my bungling efforts to draw a map. Brianboulton (talk) 21:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: the article gives an account of Mozart's trips in Italy wonderfully, describing each of the three journeys and the notable events. Brian has done a wonderful job in bringing this aspect of Mozart to life. Disclosure: I was one of the peer reviewers and have worked on the images to ensure compliance (so someone else should have a look at the images). Jappalang (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Few comments I've made a few minor word changes, but these would be beyond my knowledge of the field (which is minimal):

Background:

    • "illness and a bereavement in the imperial court prevented the children from performing there". Do we know who died? it might be worth piping the name to "a bereavement". Also, shouldn't Imperial Court be capitalized.
      • I've reworded to say who actually died. I don't think capitalization is required; it generally isn't in the sources. Brianboulton (talk) 01:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "through his over-eagerness to secure a performance of Wolfgang's first real opera". Does over-eagerness need a hyphen? And Leopold offended one and complained about the other? The connection may not be absolutely apparent to the reader
      • You're right about the hyphen. As to the rest, Leopold offended Gluck, and complained to the emperor about Affligi, the connection being Wolfgang's opera, which Leopold was trying (a little too hard) to get performed. I hope this is clear in the text as it stands. Any suggestion for greater clarity would be welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 01:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Second paragraph, Nannerl: First paragraph says that Leopold's purpose was to basically show off his kids. The second paragraph implies his main purpose is their education. I see a disconnect.
      • Leopold always had joint a double motive - to show off his kids, and to further their musical education. I've clarified that in the first paragraph, so the disconnection should disappear. Brianboulton (talk) 01:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sounds like a lot of 21st century parents!--Wehwalt (talk) 01:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "church music of the highest order" I imagine what is meant is the best church music, but that may not be clear.
      • I've changed "order" to "quality" (which is the word used by the source). Brianboulton (talk) 01:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "women should stay at home" Nannerl and who else? Assume the reader has not read the Grand Tour article, and may be unfamiliar with the Mozart family generally.

More later.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC) Journey to Milan:[reply]

  • "The general arrangement was the same as for the family's grand tour". Maybe "Leopold's financial plan for the Italy journey was the same ...". And for "travel and accomodation costs". Why not just "travel expenses"?
    • I've adopted the "Leopold's financial plans" suggestion, but I see no harm in emphasising "travel and accommodation costs", since much of Leopold's grumping is about the high costs (and poor service) of the inns. Brianboulton (talk)
  • "extensive stops en-route" does that mean a lot of stops, or long stops. And I personally would say "en route" rather than "en-route".
    • "Extensive" should be "extended" - my error. Also, hyphen deleted. Brianboulton (talk) 11:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leopold not revealing his finances: Did he always do this? Then I would state it in more general terms, as a personal characteristic, rather than something that relates to the tour only.
    • This point is, I think, covered in footnote [14]. In view of the density of information already in this narrative, I'd prefer to leave the information footnoted. Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "plenty of improvisation" maybe "much improvisation"?

More later.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Milan to Naples

  • Is a string quartet a "genre" like, say, punk rock? I'm trying to come up with a better word.
    • A string quartet is not a genre; "chamber music" is the genre, and I have altered the text accordingly. Thanks for picking that up. Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Leopold was anxious to develop a stronger connection" As there was not yet any connection, suggest deleting "stronger".
    • On this first Bologna visit Martini met Wolfgang and tested him with some musical exercises. That was the brief, initial connection. Leopold wanted a stronger connection, for the reasons given, and therefore planned the extended tuition for their return Bologna visit. Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "carrying letters from Pallavicini". He's referred to by a hyphenated name when he's introduced. Nickname? :)
    • There were other Pallavicinis around, including a cardinal, so I dare say the Bologna one added a bit to his name to avoid confusion with his namesakes. As he's the only one mentioned in this narrative, we can just call him Pallavicini.Insert non-formatted text here
  • "close emotional friendship". Not sure what is being conveyed by the word "emotional". Suggest striking the word or rephrasing to make it clearer what is meant. Same paragraph, "making much music". Playing? Composing? It's a cute phrase, but I'm just not sure what is meant by it.
    • The "emotional" or "tender" nature of the friendship is thus described in the sources. No further details are given, but the inference is merely of two boys, in a strange land, surrounded by adults and yearning for company within their age group. To avoid misunderstandings I've withdrawn "emotional". As to the rest, "making music together" is standard phrasing for performing music. I've slightly reworded, removing the "much" to avoid sounding, as you put it, "cute". Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It took five days to reach Rome, through wind and rain". I guess this is Leopold kvetching about the weather again. Not sure if this is saying they were delayed and took longer than usual.
    • Five days sounds about right for a 150-mile journey. I've rephrased to avoid the impression of a delay. Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The route through the Pontine Marshes was believed to be harassed by brigands". Can brigands harass a route? And believed? Either there were pirates, excuse me, brigands there or there weren't.

More later. Sorry, it is an excellent article, but it is filled with information and it takes time to read it with the attention it deserves, and I can only take so much at a time.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments thus far. I look forward to more. Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Return from Naples:

  • "They were under military protection, because marauding pirates were attacking the road." Ah, pirates! I know just the guy for that. As they were travelling, were the pirates attacking? Sounds that way. Incidently, while we are on the subject of military, I think the article could use an offhand sentence here and there about the political situation in Italy, perhaps a mention of when they entered a town within the Papal States, or a mention that Naples was a part of whatever it was a part of then (Two Sicilies?). Especially since the map is that of today's Italy, which is the product of wars and compromises and is a bit different from what was thought of as Italy then. Not asking for an accurate political map of Italy then, because that would be a tremendous pain (though long term, if you could get one, with the Mozarts' journey superimposed, that would be a real boon.) This might be a good starting point.
    • Reworded to the road being "subject to attacks from pirates". As to your suggestion about the political state of Italy at the time, it's a good one, but I have to tread carefully. None of my sources mention this aspect. I am not an expert on 18thC Italy, so unless I'm careful, what I say could be challenged. I have therefore confined myself to the briefest description, after the first mention of "Italy" in the Background section. I have cited this to a general history book. I see no point in going beyond this, as the political situation did not affect the Mozarts' journeys in any way. On the question of the map, that's definitely for the future, after the painful birthpangs of the one we have. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Milan revisited:

  • "Evviva il maestro!" (Long live the master!) I think most people understand "maestro". Suggest "Evviva il (long live the) maestro" or a similar construction. I think maestro suffers in translation, though literally correct, especially since master is a (a bit archaic now) salutation for a boy. (not that archaic, my great uncle used to address letters to me as (Master so and so). And I'm uncertain if you need italics for that phrase, you are probably more of a MOS hawk than I am.
    • I think how I have it is OK. You are right that "maestro" suffers in translation. In Italy it had a particular connotation for musicians, signifying their mastery of the craft, but I don't want to put all that in. As to italics, per MOS, quotes should not generally be italicised; the maestro di capello is part of a quote in which italics are used. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mitridate anywhere, before its revival in Salzburg in 1971." Probably you could lose that comma.

Journey home

  • "took a detour to Venice". Almost slangy. "detoured" might almost be as bad. And I am not sure it conveys what you want, because detoured is most commonly an unintentional act. Something like "journeyed home by way of Venice" might be better. Not sure, though
  • "Despite the generosity of their treatment" What generosity of treatment? You mention signing a contract, giving some gigs and maybe playing the ospitali.
  • "the Prince of Aragon" can you pipe to the actual guy?
    • The guy was Don Giuseppe Ximines, Prince of Aragon, and I've named him now. There's no place to pipe him to, so it would be a redlink, rather an unnecessary one I think. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "subsequent performance history" Subsequent implies that there was an initial performance. You say there may not have been. Suggest striking word "subsequent"
    • Reworded. It's the "performance" that hads to go; the subsequent history is obscure.Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In Verona a few days later, more commissions awaited" There's an implication that these commissions were almost dropping into the Mozarts' laps as they drove through the city. I'd suggest "were secured". Also, suggest ending the sentence here, the rest of the sentence can stand on its own.
  • "clash of dates" Maybe "conflict of dates" or "scheduling conflict"?
  • 2,900 florins. Is a modern day equivalent possible?
    • In note [10], dealing with the archbishop's gift of 600 fl, I compare this with Leopold's annual salary of 354 fl to indicate the value of the gift. I have added a footnote to the 2,900 fl, again using Leopold's salary as a comparator. I think this gives a better indicator of the size of Leopold's profit than saying something like "worth about £30,000 in today's values". Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll finish this afternoon or tonight.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Second journey:

  • Should "I'm sorry" be italicized in Leopold's quote? Just cauz this is about Italy ...
  • "The main reason that kept them". Awkward. Perhaps "The main reason for their extended stay ..."
  • I'm confused by the timeline here. Rehearsals began on 23 September, but the Mozarts didn't arrive in Milan until 21 October? Were the rehearsals someplace else? And what happened to the convention that arias are composed in consultation with the artistes? I suspect 21 August or September is meant.

Upheaval

  • "This was an awkward matter for Leopold," "This" clearly refers to the death. The loss of the Archbishop no doubt put the Mozarts in an awkward situation, but unless Leopold was responsible for death coming for the Archbishop, the death itself was not awkward, if you appreciate the distinction.

Third journey:

  • Second carnival opera: It says under the Return to Milan subsection that Mozart was not able to fulfil this commission due to a conflict in dates. Yet here he is fulfilling it.  ?
    • No, it says that he was unable to fulfil the San Benedetto (Venice) contract due to the conflict over dates. Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "until two o'clock the following morning". perhaps "until two o'clock in the morning"? You may use a different idiom than I.
    • Basically these are two ways of saying the same thing. Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Evaluation:

  • Looks good, though I wish you could end the article with Leopold's "We shall not go under ... " quotation.
    • It would be dramatically more satisfying, but I think the short endpiece is necessary to round the story off. Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyhow, really good article. Make the changes you like, in your discretion, but I'm not going to waste everyone's time by withholding my:

  • Support. This is a topic about which I was happy to know more, presented in a lucid style not without humor and irony, with information to satisfy anyone from the casual reader to the Mozart buff, who really knows his K numbers.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your detailed review and for the helpful suggestions, most of which I have happily adopted. Thanks also for your support. Just one last thing: if you are still watching this page, could I ask you to relocate the bolded support statement to left, or Sandy might miss it! (Not a major issue, though). Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - All images have verifiable licenses and good descriptions. Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose for now. Support. My concerns have all been addressed, and provided that the article remains stable in something close to its present form, and continues with a rational first sentence in the lead, I support it. My congratulations to the proposer on a valuable contribution to the music articles.–⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica!T– 11:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to see this well-researched article succeed. The content is worthwhile and thorough, and even considering the absence of Deutsch's standard work it uses its sources well.
I have been unable to finish a little polishing of the article that I intended to contribute (I'm away interstate at the moment). I'll do it within about 18 hours from now, and then probably change my oppose to support. One thing: there has been talk of music samples for the article. While this seems like an enhancement, I don't think this article (being biographical and historical) cries out for such a thing, and it certainly should have no bearing on its FAC.
–⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica!T– 13:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I am copyediting this article. Awadewit (talk) 00:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have finished copyediting the article. Awadewit (talk) 02:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards support - I thoroughly enjoyed reading this article - for a classical music fan like myself, FAC is like a desert. :) This article is well-researched and comprehensive. I have listed some places which require clarification or rewording on the article talk page. My only real substantive suggestion would be to add audio clips of the pieces Mozart composed during this trip. Let's exploit the multimedia possibilities of Wikipedia to the hilt! Awadewit (talk) 02:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your encouragement, and especially for your copyediting help. I will look into the matter of clips. Brianboulton (talk) 16:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All my questions and issues have been resolved (see the talk page for my offer to help obtain clips). Awadewit (talk) 20:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - in the interest of full disclosure, I helped with an earlier version of the map in the article, and have made a few edits and suggestions for improvement along the way. While I agree some sound clips would be a plus, I feel this already meets the FA criteria. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Great article on my favourite composer and an obvious FA. I have just a few comments, but they have no impact on my vote. The article starts as if it is in the middle of book or the beginning of a chapter. Perhaps the first sentences could be slightly rewritten so that the article appears more independent. Is a reason given for Prince Michael of Thurn and Taxis' snub? If not, then perhaps it should be mentioned that it was unexplained. Finally, the Hieronymus Count Colloredo image should probably be moved down a paragraph in order to conform to WP:ACCESS#Images. Let's hope we see more musical history FAs. --RelHistBuff (talk) 11:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We have wrangled quite a bit over the beginning, Rel. I think it's all right to start in medias res, myself. After all, it is effectively a chapter in Mozart's life, isn't it? And the links to the larger story are all plainly visible.
–⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica!T– 13:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you RHB for the support. I have added a bit about the possible reasons for Prince Michael's snub, and I've shifted the Colloredo image as you suggest. I too am inclined to think that the first sentence lacks some force. Among other things, I have thought about adding the description "the young composer", so that the beginning reads: "Between 1769 and 1773 the young composer Wolfgang Anmadeus Mozart..." etc. I don't think we should rely on links to provide context - though some may say that everybody knows who Mozart is. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Brianboulton (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is probably just something personal with me, but I tend to ignore the lead section when I read an article. The lead is a stand-alone independent summary so there shouldn't be anything in the lead that is not in the article. So when I started with the Background section, it seemed to assume that a previous "chapter" was already read. Mozart's family is not introduced which kind of threw me off. By the way, that's why I linked Nannerl. I consider the links in the lead and the links in the article to be separate and are not examples of double-linking. The independence of an article is not a WIAFA issue though so I leave the decision on how the article should begin with you all. --RelHistBuff (talk) 11:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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