Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lockdown (2008)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:39, 20 October 2008 [1].

Lockdown (2008)[edit]

Nominator(s): --WillC 07:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I'm nominating this article for featured article because, as most do, I feel it meets FA criteria. It has went under three different GA reviews under one nomination, two different peer reviews (one before GA and one after GA), and under multiple copyedits and smaller reviews.WillC 07:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please correct the citations per WP:ALLCAPS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Finished. I believe I got them all and left what was supposed to be capitalize. Is there anymore?--WillC 08:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - as per the Armageddon (2006) FAC below, this article really should have a better title and method of disambiguation that just a year. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • RE: Comment - I'll take that up at WT:PW and maybe come up with a better title for the article.--WillC 16:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To tell you the truth, I do not know. All I know is about.com was used in WWE No Way Out when it became an FL. Also that it only sources one thing in the whole article. I was assuming it was reliable and that Wrestling Observer has been found by WP:PW to be reliable, it is is used in other FAs. So that one I can't answer, I was expecting them to be reliable since I've seen them in other FAs and FLs.--WillC 16:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Figure Four Wrestling site is run by Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez, both of whom are acknowledged as experts in their field. Alvarez is co-author of The Death of WCW, published by ECW Press, and has been quoted in several other wrestling books (including Hardcore History: The Extremely Unauthorized Story of the ECW, published by Sports Publishing LLC, and The Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame: The Heels, published by ECW Press). Meltzer has also written books (Tributes: Remembering Some of the World's Greatest Wrestlers, published by Winding Stair Press, and Tributes II: Remembering More of the Worlds Greatest Wrestlers, published by Sports Publishing LLC, Top 100 Pro Wrestlers of All Time, published by Stewart House). He is quoted in many books and documentaries (Hitman Hart: Wrestling with Shadows and Beyond the Mat, as well as Mysteries of Wrestling, published by ECW Press; Ric Flair's autobiography, To Be the Man; Mick Foley's autobiography; and countless others). Alvarez has been running Figure Four since 1995, and he merged the magazine with Meltzer's Wrestling Observer, which has been around since 1987. If you need any more information to verify their reliability, just ask (or do a search for their names, which should turn up many hits). GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the help. I wasn't sure why, I just knew it had something to do with Dave.--WillC 06:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Sorry, but I don't believe this meets the standards set by recent wrestling PPV articles. Here's a rundown of some issues with the article.

  • The article feels overlong to me. The Background and Event sections are much longer here than they are in the other active wrestling FACs. Too many matches are covered in Background, and Event goes into an excessive amount of detail. I suggest reading PPV pages that are featured, to gain insight on how to approach this.
    • That is mainly so no important notes are left out. People read the event to know all the matches, not the top two matches. That is mainly since no one wants to right more than four or three matches. I feel if I remove two of them then I just removed important information that non-wrestling fans would like to know. I can cut the event section down more. I'm working on it right now.--WillC 01:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I believe I've cut down the event a bit. Just left what match was next and who and how they won. Besides in the top two matches, I went a little bit more indepth with them.--WillC 06:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As per tradition of Lockdown events, every match was contested inside Six Sides of Steel." Not sure about the game to start the sentence. More importantly, what is Six Sides of Steel? Remember, this article needs to make sense to non-wrestling fans. The wording in the body is much better.
    • It is explained later in the article. It clutters the lead section by explaining what each match is. When it should really be explained in the background.
      • Remember, the lead needs to be an accessible overview of the whole article. If I don't know what Six Sides of Steel is, I'm lost as a reader. I recommend just writing "contested inside a steel cage", and if you want to add the match name after that, it would be OK. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I was thinking about doing that. I did have it like that at one point but SRX told me to only explain it in the background. I'll change the lead tonight. I would really like to get yours and David Fuchs Opposes changed.--WillC 23:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comma after "The first was a Six Sides of Steel cage match (tweak if above suggestion is taken) for the TNA World Heavyweight Championship" and one before Kurt Angle.
    • Fixed, I must not noticed it.--WillC 01:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another comma after Jay Lethal.
    • I meant for the to run like a continuous sentence but changed.--WillC 01:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Background: "every match was contested inside a 16 feet (4.9 m) high..." Feet should probably be foot, and a hyphen should be placed between that and the number.
    • It is because of the template, not sure how to change it.
  • The sentence detailing how Jim Cornette announced the match is difficult to read, with many commas. Feels like a run-on sentence to me.
    • Fixed, I believe.--WillC 06:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, this is not yet ready to become featured, at least in my view. More copy-editing would be beneficial, and some trimming of unnecessary details would help too. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'll work on it. Just please take my comments about the added matches into account--WillC 01:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've worked on the event section. I'll work on the background as well, just please take my thoughts about the extra matches into account. I'll figure out what I can cut or change to make it simpler or easier to read. If I have to too I'll cut two of the matches though I do feel that is leaving out important information to the article.--WillC 06:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have some suggestions for the event section that can cut it down a bit. I feel I should disclose them with you before I do them. They are removing the eliminations from the Xscape and just mentioning them in the table in the Results section and I can half way rewrite the Lethal Lockdown match.--WillC 04:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • WIth the Xscape, maybe knock it down to the final few eliminations. Agree that the Lethal Lockdown match needs shortening. Quickly, I noticed this in an already shortened paragraph, which needs work: "During the match, Kip attempted to perform a running splash towards B.G., who was positioned in the corner (of the ring?), however, missed, which allowed B.G. to pin him with a roll-up." A couple women's matches are of good size and could be used as a model for this aspect. Also try to cut the Cuffed in a Cage match; that is overlong in my view. And the main event could be trimmed a bit too; do their ring introductions need to take up almost half the paragraph? Giants2008 (17-14) 01:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I'll work on it somemore, I'll make sure everything reads well and not confusing if I can. Thanks for the comments. I'll start working on it right now.--WillC 02:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alright, I removed over 1,800 bytes. Any suggestions for the Cuffed in the cage match will be helpful since I feel what is left needs to be left but I have no ideas on how to cut it down more with what is left. How did I do?--WillC 04:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The size of the paragraphs varies widely, but it's workable and a natural consequence of the cuts. The main problem I see is the background. I still think this is too long to maintain the reader's interest, especially a non-wrestling fan's. We might have to agree to disagree on this. The writing also needs work, as shown by this segment of Main event matches: "The finish of the match saw Roode holding Sharmell for Banks to slap her, but Sharmell hit Roode with a low blow to the groin and jumped out of the way. Causing Banks to slap Roode by mistake." Sentence fragment at the end. Earlier, I found "The match came down to Devine and Lethal, in which Lethal escape the cage before Devine..." Grammar issues there. One more before I go, from Background: "Before Against All Odds, B.G. finally announced that his partner would be farther Bob Armstrong (Joseph James)." Sorry, but these examples are enough to convince me that this still isn't ready. Oh, and I left a note above on Six Sides of Steel. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm willing to work on it. Just name stuff you would like to change. I've been working on it since May so everything sounds fine to me anymore. I'll make sure tonight I check every little bit of the article.--WillC 23:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I said I would check every bit of it tonight, but I have a busy day tomorrow and I can't. I'll make sure I get it done tomorrow morning before I start other work. Also do you want me to remove two of the feuds? I will, though I don't want too, but I will if you want. If it gets it closer to FA, I will.--WillC 04:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I'm not entirely convinced on WrestleView's use as a source, but this article has other issues. There are numerous MoS issues (left-aligned images under level three headers, et al), weak prose in areas ("he Tsongas Arena has a maximum capacity of 7,800, however, TNA only sold 5,500 tickets for the event.[2] Although, this was the second highest margin TNA has gathered at its pay-per-view events, with Lockdown in 2007 having an attendance of 6,000, which is the highest TNA has had to date at a pay-per-view event, according to Pro Wrestling History.com."), and parts of the article are inaccessible to non-wrestling readers (" Jim Cornette made the TNA World Heavyweight Championship match at Sacrifice a 3-Way Dance between Joe, Steiner, and Angle." What's a 3-Way Dance? Why is the informal 'cuffed' used throughout the article?) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, the image problem is fixed. All pictures follow WP:MoS#Images. The only other left-aligned picture is the Jay Lethal and it follows the rule by being a paragraph down below the header. The attendance is taken care of. I removed it since I didn't have a good source for it. Also a 3 Way dance is explained in the background. It is mentioned in the Kim/ODB versus Kong/Saeed description. I've never read MoS, so if you could explain the problems that Lockdown has, I will make sure they are taken care immediately.--WillC 21:01, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • What would you like me to do with the WrestleView refs? All I can say is the recent wrestling FAs all passed with WrestleView sources. WrestleView was said to have been found reliable.--WillC 04:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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