Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Learie Constantine/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 03:01, 30 August 2012 [1].

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Learie Constantine

Learie Constantine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Learie Constantine/archive1

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) and Sarastro1 (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Learie Constantine was a Trinidadian cricketer, barrister, politician and a life-long opponent of racial discrimination. He began life as a cricketer, seeing the sport as a way of escaping his poor quality of life in Trinidad, where his colour meant he could not advance himself. He used his sporting career as a launching pad. He moved to England, becoming the highest paid sportsman in the country, and settled there. Following the war, he studied law, qualified as a barrister and moved back to Trinidad where he became a politician around the time of the island's independence. He spent his final years living back in England, where he remained very popular. Not your usual cricketer or sportsman, Constantine fitted more than most into his life. I've been working on this for a while, and it is currently a GA. Following the PR, Brianboulton kindly tidied my prose and removed much of the padding, and his help has been invaluable, as always. Although he is a co-nom, any errors are mine. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

• Looks good; only had time to read some of it but it read well (and interesting). Two things though; I don't feel "Also in 1950, he became involved ... Liberal parliamentary candidate." leaves the reader with a good idea of what happened and what the consequences where for Constantine. Also "five guineas (just over £5)": five guineas is of course £5 5s. The "just over" part, while correct, feels like we're giving a modern equivalent, but we aren't because the figure isn't adjusted for inflation or anything; it's a bit confusing. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 22:54, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
  • On the first point, there was a little more previously, but I don't think that this incident has enough importance for Constantine to warrant giving too much detail beyond what is already here. And the part on Attlee and the Liberal candidate are really nothing more than a reflection on Constantine's disenchantment with the Labour government. If others think that this is too brief, I can add a little more. The second point is a little trickier as I really don't like using inflation figures as they cause no end of trouble! I think the simplest way may be to remove "just over £5" for the moment. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:05, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comments: Alright, I'm reading through the article, about 3/5 of the way done now. It seems to be in great shape, even as someone with only a basic understanding of Cricket I've found it accessible. Definitely well written, a few small comments though, mostly comma-related:
• "He displayed little enthusiasm for learning and never reached a high academic standard,[11] but showed prowess at several sports, and was respected for his cricketing lineage." Do we need the second comma here?
• "His father prohibited him from playing competitive club cricket until 1920, for fear of premature exposure to top-class opposition while too young" I'm also not sure about the comma here.
• "Few black Trinidadians at this time became solicitors and he faced many social restrictions owing to his colour." I think there should be a comma after "solicitors", right?
• "C. L. R. James believed that Constantine batting reached its peak once" Should be "Constantine's batting" I believe.
• In the heading "Test series against England in 1933 and 1934–5" I think the MOS calls for "1934–35", not 100% sure though.
• "the England captain Douglas Jardine, who had implemented the Bodyline tactics in Australia" This may be an issue of US vs. UK English, but "the England captain" sounds odd to me, is this ok?
  • It sounds OK to me, but it may be cricket-speak, so I've re-worded it. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• "Although he produced better figures in subsequent seasons he considered his first season at Nelson the most enjoyable of his life" I'd suggest a comma after "seasons", also, is there a good way round the "seasons... season" here?
• "Constantine scored a century in 52 minutes against Tasmania, played five other innings over fifty, and took three five-wicket returns." Is the use of the serial comma intentional here? I also noticed it later "Nelson never finished lower than second, won the league competition seven times, and the knockout cup twice."
• "Consequently, he and his family enjoyed a good standard of living for the first time in their lives." Can we remove "in their lives" here?
  • I actually think it may be necessary to emphasise that it was not just for the first time in England/Nelson/elsewhere but was the first time they were in a good financial situation. However, it is mainly a style choice and I can remove it if it is a problem. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• I saw the date comma in a couple places: "In 1933, he took 96 wickets" & " In 1934, Neville Cardus described Constantine as a "genius"" I think that's usually avoided in British English.
• Ok, that's all for now, will try to post more later. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the review so far. All comments addressed unless answered above. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Alright, fixes and explanations look good, I made a few minor tweaks. Mark Arsten (talk) 05:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Several sentences in the second paragraph of "Final years" start with "In [year]", might want to rephrase one or two.
  • Ouch! I think I got these. Any better? Sarastro1 (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• "only one speech in his time in the Lords." Just checking, but is "in the Lords" a common phrase? (It sounds odd to me, but I presume it's a US vs UK thing). Mark Arsten (talk) 05:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, it's short-hand for "in the House of Lords", and is fairly common. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Interesting, good to know. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
      • But, bearing in mind that "Lord's" is England's main cricket ground, I think there is a real possibility of confusion for the unaware reader. So I've tweaked it. Brianboulton (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• "at Trinity College, Dublin in 1946" Should there be a comma after Dublin here?
  • Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• One last US vs UK question: "He used his influence with the Ministry of Labour to pressurise companies who refused to employ West Indians" Is pressurise (vs pressure) correct here?
  • Yes; pressure would work as well, but I believe pressurise is more correct over here. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• Support Great work guys. As I said above, this is a very well written, accessible article. Sorry it took me so long to do the review. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

No problem, your comments are always extremely valuable. Thanks for the review and support. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Image check. All images appear to be appropriately licensed (mainly they are out-of-copyright images under Aust. Law), and have alt text. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:13, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Support. Thank you to Brianb for addressing my initial queries. I have two other quibbles about consistency of terms below, but nothing of consequence. I enjoyed reading this; to my shame I had never heard of Constantine (though my cricket afficianado brother-in-law has set me straight), and am the richer for having learned about him. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• "toured England with the West Indies teams in their 1923 and 1928 tours of England." Clumsy wording with toured/tours and England twice in one phrase. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:17, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
• "Constantine played cricket for Shannon Cricket Club, first in 1916 before his father ended his competitive cricket," the sentence seems clumsy, in part because of the use of "his" twice in one phrase (reads as though the father ended the son's career), but also seems to imply, without being clear, that the father played at Shannon. If so, be explicit; if not, then why run these two facts together (the club where he started play; the timing of father's career)? hamiltonstone (talk) 00:30, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• Rephrased for clarity in both instances. Brianboulton (talk) 08:12, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• About half the time, there are references in text to C.L.R. James; about the other half it is just "James". Unless more than one james is referred to in the article, I would only use those initials in the first, wikilinked, instance and drop them thereafter. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• I have removed the repeated James initials, except in the "Nelson" section where the name appears after a lengthy gap, and the prompt via the initials may be useful to readers. Brianboulton (talk) 12:30, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• Can an editor take a careful look at the way in which the West Indies team name is expressed and punctuated. I was about to make some fixes, but have decided to leave it to the article's main editors. I am used to the team being referred to as "the West Indies" rather than "West Indies". In one section there is also this: "In West Indies second innings", and I wonder whether there should be a possessive apostrophe there (cf. "In Australia's second innings"). hamiltonstone (talk) 10:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• I think you are right, that "the West Indies" is formally preferable to just "West Indies", and have made the necessary adjustments to the text. I also adjusted the possessive apostrophe that you suggested. I am only the junior editor here, but thank you for your comments and support for which I am sure the main man will be duly grateful. Brianboulton (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• As Brian said, much appreciated. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments

• All-rounder should be hyphenated in the infobox
• Ref 86 is pp.
• Ref 171's date is not stated. I'm guessing because the website has had a revamp since it was cited. Perhaps use the date in the article, like you did with Ref 108. Lemonade51 (talk) 23:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
  • First two done. The last one is a little strange; as you say, the date is not given in the article, but this page gives the date stated in the ref. I think it's better to keep it as it is, based on that, but I can change it if there is a big problem; however, I think you are suggesting that the date 1943 be used, as in the other ref, but this was certainly not the date the article was written. Sarastro1 (talk) 00:14, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Support on prose and comprehensiveness. Ref 171 uses 1943 as the date I think, but no need to change if you don't feel like doing so – it doesn't really affect my decision to support a generally enjoyable read. Lemonade51 (talk) 21:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments – I've read through Series against England and Australia, and will go further if time permits. Most of what I saw looked solid, as usual.

• A link to Nelson Cricket Club would be helpful for the lead.
• Early life: "he also wanted his son first to establish a professional career." Shouldn't "first" be moved to later in the sentence? It might fit best at the end.
• Cricket in Trinidad: "he returned to club in 1920." "the" might be helpful in this, after "to". Giants2008 (Talk) 01:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
  • All done, thanks for the comments so far. Sarastro1 (talk) 13:50, 22 August 2012 (UTC
• Test series against England in 1933 and 1934–35: "was instrumental in turning English attitudes against Bodyline, an attitude Constantine considered hypocritical." Maybe it's just me, but I think having "attitudes" and "attitude" together like this makes the sentence awkward.
• No need to capitalize the second word of "In The West Indies' second innings...".
• Typo in "Most critics believed the West Indes underachieved in the Test series".
• Tour of England in 1939: Period needed after Wisden's Cricketers of the Year.
• Style and technique: "believed that Constantine's batting reached its peak...". Missing a word at the start.
• Constantine v Imperial London Hotels: This may be a stupid question, but is "manageress" a word? I haven't heard of such a word here in the U.S., though I have a feeling it may be a British English word for a female manager. We just call them managers here.
• Return to Trinidad: Hyphen shouldn't be in "newly-founded".
• Is a word missing at the end of "was party chairman and a member of its executive."?
• High Commissioner: "Howat observes that the evidence that he was a successful in the post...". "successful" → "success". Giants2008 (Talk) 02:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• All the above fixes made. I can assure you that in the UK "manageress" is an acceptable term for female managers, used particularly in relation to shops, hotels etc. Thanks for your comments. Brianboulton (talk) 09:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Note: I think an edit conflict with conom may have affected some of my changes, but I'll let him have the final say. Brianboulton (talk) 09:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• We seem to have clashed here! I think I got all of these, apart from manageress, as Brian says above, and I'm not too sure about the "newly-founded". I'll check with Brian on that one, but all others done. Thanks again. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Support. Just a minor wonder, we say he was knighted but there is no mention of what rank he was in either the lede, infobox, or later section. This is a very interesting article. Congrats! -- Cassianto^Talk 19:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

• I've left a short disquisition on British knighthoods, on the article's talkpage. Basically, the knighthood is the rank, and it is not usually necessary to go beyond saying that a person was knighted. Thank you for your comment and support. Brianboulton (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Delegate note -- minor point re. Sources, I'd have thought for consistency that the full title of Frith should be in title case. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The title of the Frith book is presented in the Sources list as it is on the book itself. It is arguable whether the long subtitle should really be considered as part of the title, but I see no harm, and it does give a useful indication of what the book is about. Brianboulton (talk) 08:09, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Granted, and I agree subtitles are often useful, I just happen to think title case for every title looks better -- however rechecking MOS I see that it's fairly open-ended, only requiring that one override the style of a title if it appears in all caps, rather than specifically requiring a change to title case. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:20, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

• Source review Looks like all high-quality sources. Not being terribly acquainted with the subject matter, I did look closely at CricketArchive, especially since it would not load (perhaps it is down). However, I see it is relied on in YellowMonkey's lengthy set of articles. I will assume the problem loading to be a momentary glitch. No other concerns.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:52, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.