Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Laurence of Canterbury

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:40, 29 March 2009 [1].

Laurence of Canterbury[edit]

Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk

I am nominating this for featured article because... It's another short one. This is the successor to Augustine of Canterbury, but a whole lot less is known about him. Sorry, no bad boy bishop here, just a nice solid little-known saint. He did get whipped by St. Peter in a dream though! He's part of my Featured topic push on the Gregorian mission. Copyedit by Malleus, research by me. Any prose problems are my own. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:33, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Tech. Review
  • Dabs and external links are found up to speed, based on the respective tools found in the toolbox.
  • Ref formatting is not up to speed (based on WP:REFTOOLS script)
  • The following ref name is used more than once to name a ref, when it should only be naming one ref.
Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by sasata

Cool.--Best, ₮RUCӨ 15:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Ealdgyth put up with three of my fungal GAC reviews, so I thought I'd partly return the favor by leaving some notes here. Bear in mind these comments are from the perspective of someone who knows next to nothing about Christian history, so if I appear ignorant, it's because I am!

Lead

  • "He was a member of the Gregorian mission sent from Italy to England to convert the Anglo-Saxons," ...to Christianity (needs to be spelled out clearly for people like me who don't know this stuff)
  • "he was eventually reconverted however." Comma needed before however (I think).

Early life

  • Again, please briefly mention what the point of the Gregorian mission was.
  • The timeline/logic outlined in this section has me somewhat confused. Here's how I interpret it:
595 dispatched from Rome with St. Augustine
597 arrives at Kent (maybe 601) (Augustine stays behind in Kent?)
598 starts his journey back to Rome with sidekick Peter (Was Pete already in Kent as part of the Gregorian mission?)
601 returns to Rome. Has "Gregory's replies to Augustine's questions". What are these questions? How could he have brought back Gregory's replies to questions-how had Gregory already seen the questions?
  • Does Gregory the Great = Pope Gregory I?
  • "...which information Gregory says he received" Construction sounds awkward to me.
  • Ok now I see in the last sentence that Laurence returned to England in 601. But I'd prefer not to have to get to the last sentence before the chronology is clear.
  • Who is Mellitus?

Archbishop

  • "so he may have been considered as uncanonical." By whom?
  • Wikilink or define Synod

Pagan reaction

  • "archiepiscopate" - there's a fancy word I don't know the meaning of.
  • "...forcing many of the Gregorian missionaries to flee to Gaul following the pagan reaction." What was this pagan reaction? Did it involve torches and pitchforks?
  • "...sees Eadbald's actions as a repudiation of his father's pro-Frankish policies." pro-Frankish?
  • "Not all historians agree with this argument however" Comma needed before however.
I think I've addressed most of these, some with wikilinks, some with added information. I think I've added enough to the "early life" section that it should make a bit better sense. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for making those changes. The article now has my Support. Sasata (talk) 15:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Laurence/Lawrence

  • Not being familiar with this topic I confused Laurence of Canterbury or St. Laurence with Saint Lawrence, or Lawrence of Rome (I've since discovered) you might make the distinction in this article clear. Modernist (talk) 15:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added hatnote. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Llywrch

Hi Ealdgyth: for the most part, this is a well-written & clear article on the subject, but there are some points which I feel need to be handled before it can truly be considered a Featured Article:

  • What are Laurence's origins before he was part of the Gregorian mission? I find it a little surprising that no quotable authority has speculated whether he was born & raised in northern or southern Italy, southern Gaul, etc. If his origins have been conceded as unknown or unknowable, simply stating that would fix this.
Brooks, in the ONDB, says "He was one of the Roman monks who had accompanied Augustine from Rome in 596..." Lapidge, in the Blackwell Encyclopedia article says "... was one of the original Roman missionaries..." I did find one source that mentions that "nothing is known about the previous history" of Laurence, which I added to the article. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. -- llywrch (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bede makes a point of comparing Augustine's action in consecrating Laurence to St Peter's action of consecrating Clement as Bishop of Rome during Peter's lifetime, which may be Bede's way of criticising the practices of the church in his day." This is one of those cases where the opinion of an authority needs to be quoted explicitly; it's one person's opinion (although an obviously qualified person's opinion), so you would be better served by modifying that sentence to "Bede makes a point of comparing Augustine's action in consecrating Laurence to St Peter's action of consecrating Clement as Bishop of Rome during Peter's lifetime, which Benedicta Ward believes [or "argues"] was Bede's way of criticising the practices of the church in his day." I noticed a few statements in the first paragraph of the next section ("Pagan reaction") which probably should be rephrased in the same way (e.g., "Kirby interprets &c.")
did the first, but it's Wright, not Ward, who argues this. Got the other two. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also looks good. -- llywrch (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mention of the "Pagan reaction" section raises a rather important oversight in this article: you fail to explain why it was important for Laurence to remain in Britain. (The answer being, IIRC, was that his departure might mean the end of the church there, & future missions musts needs start from the same beginnings, if not with a further handicap. Again, there must be a reliable source who can be quoted to say this very thing.) This is an easy omission to make: you obviously are too close to the material, & just needed a tap on the shoulder to see & fix it.
It's not that it's really an oversight, it's more that most historians figure it's so blindingly obvious that they never mention it (laughs). The best I can do is from Yorke's Conversion of Britain p. 225. "The Gregorian mission almost lost its tenative hold within England when it objected to King Eadbald wishing to marry his stepmother, the widow of his father and predecssor AEthelbert. On th is occasion the king backed down, convinced by his own epileptic fits and the apparent scourging of Archbishop Laurence by St Peter that the marriage was ill-omened." The only other bit I can find is from Wright, the theologian, who says "So, by the intervention of none other than St Peter himself, the church continues to be present in England." I think we can make this more obvious to the reader without having to stretch the sources by saying ..."Among them were Mellitus, who was Bishop of London, and Justus, who was Bishop of Rochester, and the only other Roman bishops in Britain besides Laurence." which keeps information but allows the reader to make the connection themselves. I find Yorke's statement a bit thin to base something on, but if you're comfortable with it, I'm open to wording suggestions. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So did I just reveal myself as the civilian identity of Captain Obvious? ;-) I thought about your response, & when I looked at your text I realized that most of what bothered me could be fixed by adding a few words. Does my edit help? -- llywrch (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, that's fine. I know I'm a bit of a stickler about OR, but I try to avoid going beyond my sources, I've just found it easier to not go too much beyond. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • BTW, as think about the dream of St. Peter, I wonder whether any commentator has pointed out a possible allusion here to the Peterine legend quo vadis. If not, until we find one who does -- be it a formal paper or a grad student's thesis -- to include it might violate WP:OR. -- llywrch (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't run across it, not even in Wright's work, which is the most overtly "theological" of my works. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's not an important thought. It is a point I hope some budding medieval scholar takes the time to investigate, which is the only reason I would add it. Too bad some folks are very anal retentive about the original research rule, otherwise it could be added as a "maybe" for that reason.
Yeah, if I'd stuck with medieval studies, I could always do a paper on it (but if I had, I wouldn't be doing wikipedia... so..) Ealdgyth - Talk 00:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Since I mentioned further research, I'll add a new question: is there any reason not to add references to the main primary source for Laurence's life -- Bede's Ecclesiastical History? I ask for a slightly selfish reason: I have a copy of Plummer's edition of Bede, & late last night I tried to identify the sections where Laurence is mentioned in order to see if Plummer makes any worthwhile comments. Yes he wrote over 100 years ago, but he does know the later medieval chroniclers quite well, & sprinkling some of the later traditions on Laurence might improve this article. And there is the consideration that if a Wikipedia article is supposed to be a starting place for research, then pointers to Bede would be a good thing. -- llywrch (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I generally try to avoid using the primary sources unless it's for a quotation. I don't have a problem with putting a link to the various editions and pages of the original sources, but I think if you look at the Prosopography external link, you'll find that it gives all the original mentions of Laurence in a handy link source. (I love PASE, it's a great resource). Ealdgyth - Talk 00:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for those behind the times like me who aren't familiar with PASE, you could do us a favor with a note alerting us that it contains these links. (And now that I found the relevant passages with PASE, Charles Plummer does have some interesting bits -- shall I list them on your talk page so you can decide which to add & which to discard without worry about needing to add them to make this a Featured Article?) -- llywrch (talk) 06:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get a note on the PASE link. My talk page is always open, feel free to drop notes there anytime. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Is it correct that the only primary sources are Bede and Alcuin, and that everything else is interpretation based on their writings? Looie496 (talk) 01:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure we could call Alcuin a primary source on this. We have some spurious charters that purport to be signed by him. Also the Life of Gregory from Whitby mentions him, and it was written about the time of Bede. The ONDB article gives some letters of Gregory as sources, I'm not sure if those are the ones preserved in Bede or if they are from the Papal registers. Check out the Prosopography link at the bottom, it gives all the genuine and spurious listings of his name that come close to being contemporary. (The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle mentions him too, but during the time frame covered by Laurence's life, it's likely derived from Bede.) There was a Life composed in 1091, but it's not going to be a good source for information. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think this information should be in the article -- at the very least a mention that the bulk of info comes from Bede. Looie496 (talk) 02:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to understand why? The entire article is sourced to secondary modern sources. The only source I have that gives any information on where his name is mentioned is the PASE external link, and all that is is a listing of where is name is mentioned and the editions/etc that it is. I can safely say from secondary sources that "Most of the information that we know about the Gregorian mission is from Bede." but that doesn't follow that I can say that "Most of the information we have about Laurence is from Bede." None of my sources say that. PASE doesn't list ALL mentions, nor does it interpret the listings, it jsut lists it. The two "articles" on Laurence (from ONDB and the Blackwell Encyclopedia) don't say anything of the kind that I've said above. Yes, it can be inferred, but it can't be sourced to reliable secondary sources, it can only come from interpreting the PASE link and the bibliography listed at the ONDB and the Blackwell Encyclopedia article. None of the other sources used in this article are devoted to Laurence alone, unfortunatly. I'm just not comfortable putting that above into the article, it smacks me as original research. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question Are there any images? Icons of Laurence? Modernist (talk) 12:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing I've found that's close in time. I just checked the Canterbury category on Commons again for another article and still nothing. Since all of the buildings he would have known are gone, I don't feel comfortable using a pic from Canterbury Cathedral, since it dates from the late 11th century. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are unlikely to be any at all early, and they would certainly not be portraits in the modern sense. Johnbod (talk) 14:11, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, not likely to be any. And anyting modern I dislike using on a biography article, it gives the wrong impression that the picture is indeed that person when we know it's not. If I had a medieval illustration of him, I'd not object much, because it would be pretty obvious, but I've not seen any illuminated manuscript pics of him. I could put a pic of Canterbury Cathedral, but again, it'd give the wrong impression because the current cathedral is about 500 years after Laurence's time. Same for pictures of the ruins of St Augustine Abbey, they are definitely gothic. I could put a map in, but he didn't move around much, so there's not a lot of point. (Basically, Rome and Canterbury is where we know he was.) I'm not opposed to pictures, I just haven't seen any that I think make a lot of sense. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
However we do have two good illustrations of St. Augustine Gospels, a book Laurence almost certainly handled and as Archbishop owned. Amazingly neither of these are used in Augustine's article either. Johnbod (talk) 14:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's more a "probably" owned. But if you want to pick one pic for it and write a caption, go for it. (It is mentioned and illustratedEaldgyth - Talk 14:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC) in Gregorian mission) Ealdgyth - Talk 14:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that there is an existing church built in Anglo-Saxon times dedicated to St Laurence in Bradford-on-Avon in Wiltshire. Okay, I'm sure that there is an AS church in Bradford because I have visited it; just not sure if it is dedicated to this St. Laurence. (And I'm not entirely certain that it is the one pictured in the Wikipedia article -- my memory is of a tiny, undistinguished little building which would barely hold a dozen people.) Otherwise, would a medieval illustration of the Gregorian mission work? -- llywrch (talk) 16:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is the church, but what is visible now seems mainly 9th-10th century & it is not clear which Laurence was the dedicatee. It isn't quite that small, nor undistinguished imo, but probably not right for here. About the only AS pic we seem to have of a building that looks much the same as in Laurences day is Bradwell in Essex, but that is a all but a Roman building re-cycled, and there is I imagine no evidence Laurence knew it. I've added the Gospel book pic - though there is no direct evidence, asfaik all art historians regard it as highly plausible that the book was at Canterbury by Laurence's day. Johnbod (talk) 16:44, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point that nobody seems to have mentioned: Nowhere in the article does it say why he was canonised. There's no suggestion of any miracles or martyrdom, and "mainly remembered for his failure to secure a settlement with the Celtic church, and for his reconversion of Eadbald following Ethelbert's death" doesn't seem like particularly solid grounds. I note from List of members of the Gregorian mission#Members that all the former archbishops are listed as saints, but there's nothing in Canonization to suggest that the process was ever automatic-on-retirement for archbishops. – iridescent 16:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See Historical process of beatification and canonization - he was a confessor. But perhaps something on this should be added. Johnbod (talk) 16:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Neither "biography" article even mentions that he was a saint. (That's the ONDB and the Blackwell Encyclopedia). He's listed in Walsh's Dictionary of Saints but it doesn't say what he got considered a saint for. I've linked the "regarded" in the last section to Canonization#Historical development of the process, which gives a bit of information.Basically, as I explained somewhere else (I think it was Peter of Canterbury's article) some folks just came to be regarded as expecially holy and then they were saints. Prior to about 1100, this was generally all that was considered necessary, there was no formal process until then. Sometimes, such "pre-congregation" saints went through a process that "proved" their holiness (see Historical process of beatification and canonization#Confirmation of cult but I haven't seen any sign that this happened in Laurence's case. (Peter, who I just mentioned, had that process done in 1915) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Goscelin labels him a saint in his series of Vitae he wrote on the occasion of the translation of the relics of St. Augustine & his companions; according to Charles Plummer, Laurence is listed with Mellitus & Justus as a saint in the Stowe Missal (Plummer's edition of Historiam ecclesiasticam, vol. 2 pp. 81f). So there appears to have been some kind of unofficial "canonization". Whether that is still the case today in the C of E or the Catholic Church is another issue. -- llywrch (talk) 21:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Walsh's book (which is a source) is based off the Vatican's Martyrologium Romanum and unless otherwise indicated in the entries, assumes that the saint listed is venerated in the Catholic Church. Since there is no other indication in Laurence's entry, he's RCC recognized, at the least. I don't have access to Farmer's Oxford Dictionary of Saints, unfortunately. (Well, i Can get to it from Amazon) Interestingly it has your Quo Vadis bit, Llyr. All it adds (besides the QV bit) is the bit about the Stowe Missal and that his tomb was opened in 1915. I'll throw that information in the article. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have access to the Oxford Dictionary of Saints if there's something you need from it. --Malleus Fatuorum 12:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I got the informatoin in from the Amazaon link. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note - I'm heading out of town this morning, and should be back late Tuesday night. I'll have intermittant internet access (at least hopefully) but it might be a bit longer than usual between replies. I'll also be without my books, so anything serious will have to wait until I get back. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • comment Very nearly there, given the brutally limited sources. It would be good to know more on his posthumous "reception" as WP likes to say - did he have a medieval shrine? What churches were dedicated to him (I think there is a database on this or book listing dedications)? I see the Canterbury cricket ground is named after him! Apparent ref to relics here. Also, for his return from Rome in 601 he was given some books by Gregory, which may have included the Augustine Gospels (if not carried on the original mission(. It would be good, also for the article on the Gospels, to have the original source for this - Bede? Some disam mention of St Laurence O'Toole, who was nearly killed in an attack at the shrine of Thomas a Becket, might be desirable. Johnbod (talk) 12:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The implication is that he had a shrine in Canterbury, as he was transfered to it in 1091. I've not been able to turn up anything beyond the fact that his tomb was opened in 1915 (Given the Dissolution, the assumption would be that the shrine went boom in the 1530s, but I'm not seeing any direct references.) If there is a database listing dedicatons, this the first I've heard about it. About the books, the information that the books came in the second group is indeed in Bede originally. I'm pretty sure it's not in the Whitby life of Gregory, but it might be there too. (Since I'm on the road, I can't consult the book.). I've got a hatnote on the top of the article, that links to all the various St Laurence and St Lawrences, where O'toole is mentioned. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bede says (p. 85 in the Sherley-Price translation) "They brought with them everything necessary for the worship and service of the Church, including sacred vessels, altar coverings, church ornaments, vestments for priests and clergy, relics of the holy Apostles and martyrs, and many books." I don't have a copy of the Whitby life of Gregory, unfortunately, so I can't tell you if it's in there or not. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Media review: The images (3) are all in public domain and hosted on commons. Good. NuclearWarfare (Talk) 02:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - I read through the lead and the final section of the article, and could find no glaring issues. –Juliancolton Talk · Review 02:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It would be nice to have more info at some point on where the tomb is or was, what it contained in 1915, where the remains are now, & any info on the shrine, but article meets FA standards as it is. Johnbod (talk) 04:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All in all a relatively short but informative work. Nicely done...Modernist (talk) 04:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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