Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gregorian mission/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:48, 27 June 2009 [1].

Gregorian mission[edit]

Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 15:56, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because... I feel it meets the FA criteria. And it's not a bishop or a horse! As is usual, Malleus has done his usual wonderful job of massaging my prose. Any errors still remaining are mine. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:56, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • CommentsSupport all my issues have been resolved.NancyHeise talk 00:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section entitled "Motivations" I think is incomplete. It mentions Gregory's possible motivations and is referenced to only one source. I checked Eamon Duffy's Saints and Sinners which devotes several pages to discuss the Gregorian missions. On pages 70-71 (paperback edition[2]) it says of his motivations: "In all probability we must attribute the English mission simply to Gregory's desire for 'an increase of the faithful'. He sought the spread of Catholic Christianity to the barbarian kingdoms of Britain as he had seen it spread in his own lifetime amon the barbarians of Spain and Gaul, and as he hoped to see it spread among the Lombards. Whatever Gregory's motives, however, the Roman mission to England was to have an impact far beyond the bounds of Britain."
  • These sentences in the article section "Motivations"

    "Gregory believed that the end of the world was imminent, and that he was destined to be a major part of God's plan for the apocalypse. His belief was rooted in the idea that the world would go through six ages, and that he was living at the end of the sixth age, a notion that may have played its part in Gregory's decision to dispatch the mission. Only the conversion of more of the peoples of the world to Christianity could bring about the end of the world, and thus it was important to support missionary efforts.'"

    I have a problem with these sentences, they are very specific about Gregory's beliefs but I can not find the bolded one in the referenced source here [3]. I think that undue weight is given to this and that it should be reworded to more accurately reflect the source.
It's further down on that page, the paragraph starting:

Gregory clearly had a continuous and ongoing commitment to the spread of Cahtolic Christianity through his role as the senior bishop of all Christendom, and more particularly of the West. He saw himself as the key agent on early through whom God's plan for mankind might be made manifest beofre the sixth age of the earth should end - an he believe that ending to be iminent. His interst in conversion was, therefore, ideologically rooted.

In this context, the six ages theory means the end of the world and the coming of Christ once more. I myself don't see the problem with the paraphrase here. It's an inference, but it's certainly there to be read in what Higham's saying. If that last sentence is a bother, I'm not sure how else to condense what Higham's saying, honestly. The preceding sentences won't make much sense without drawing the conclusion, at least not to most folks. I can trim it if others feel that it's not a valid conclusion, but I think removing it will make Higham's thoughts less clear. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to oppose your FAC over this, I just think it would be better if it were more concise, perhaps a wikilink to Six ages of the world could help?NancyHeise talk 02:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Heh. It's Six ages of the world, and I'll try to fit it in, somehow. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Higham' explanation for Gregory's motivations differ from Eamon Duffy's. If two different authors make specific rationalizations about a pope's intentions, I think any mention of these in the article should mention the specific author making such comment and that the article should include both viewpoints to meet WP:NPOV.
Higham's ideas of Gregory's motivations differ from Markus' also. I thought I'd made it explicit that Markus (and most other historians) think that increasing the faithful was one motivation, but I can see it didn't get through. I'll mine Markus for that, since he's the most recent scholarly biographer of Gregory. Let me work on that in the morning, as facing Markus' prose is not something I wanna do right before bed. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, what I did was move the previous first paragraph of "Practical consideration" into the "motivations" where it really should have been to begin with. I also explicitly drew out that the desire to increase Christian numbers was part of it. (Drew on Hindley for that, Markus never says "of course they wanted to increase the number of Christians... ) Ealdgyth - Talk 02:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ealdgyth, I think it is better but it still does not make the point that Duffy makes in that Gregory's motivation was for an 'increase in the faithful'. To say that he did it because he thought the world would not end unless he did is wrong. This sentence: "Only the conversion of more of the peoples of the world to Christianity could bring about the end of the world, and thus it was important to support missionary efforts." is unreferenced and Higham does not say this neither does Duffy. I think that sentence could easily be tossed and something inserted to help make Duffy's point which reflects the understanding of most Catholics as to his motivations. I think a lot of Readers will think the article lacks all points of view if Duffy's POV is omitted. Can't you just use Duffy as a source as well and insert a line to reflect his comments on Gregory's motivation? See also the second paragraph on page 52 of Donald Logan's A history of the church in the Middle Ages [4]. He makes the point that the motivation was "it has come to our ears by the mercy of God the English race earnestly desire to be converted to Christianity". NancyHeise talk 12:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nancy, I don't find Duffy's work specialized enough for this topic. I've consulted more specialized works for this article, ones that aren't covering a whole 2000 years of church history, but instead cover the time frame here. Markus' biography of Gregory is one of the most recent, Higham's work on the conversion is quite good. There is also Yorke and Mayr-Harting who wrote specifically on the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons. I'll find it somewhere, but I myself DO see the connection in Higham's work and what the sentence says. Let me wake up and find something specific. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:53, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, the last paragraph of Motivations now starts: "Although one of Gregory's main motivations was to increase the number of Christians,[27] more practical matters, such as the recruitment of new provinces acknowledging the primacy of the papacy and the gaining of new Christians looking to Rome for leadership were probably involved." which hopefully addresses your concerns. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I read your adjustments to this section. Ealdgyth, I am always happy with your articles and I think this one meets FA too and intend to support it but I can not do that yet because this section on "Motivation" seems to be so POV to me. I have read Higham, Duffy and Logan and, although Higham speculates on Gregory's motivations, this is actually one scholar's speculation that is not mirrored by other scholars. The article should state this, not make it seem as if Higham's speculation is fact. Duffy actually states something completely different from Higham regarding motivation and even frames this the same way as Higham, as scholarly speculation. What they are saying is that no one really knows for sure what Gregory's motivations were but they think it may have had something to do with 1)"an increase of the faithful" 2)a response to the request for conversion by English royalty 3)Higham's Six Ages theory 4)extension of papal authority (this is in the article already but is unreferenced, is this from Higham? It needs ref). NancyHeise talk 16:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I"ve added a "Higham theorizes ... " in front of the six ages theory stuff. The bit about papal authority is specifically cited from Hindley (it's cited in the following sentence and the citation covers the sentence before it also. It could also be cited to Stenton, and probably others (I havent' checked for it specifically in Yorke or Mayr-Harting. It's coverage in Hindely, who is writing a generalized history of the Anglo-Saxons makes it more than a one-person theory. Hindley's basically writing a college level textbook on Anglo-Saxon history) All four of your motivations are covered in the article. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Duffy is cited many more times on Googlescholar than Higham, he is a Yale University Press. His theory of Gregory's motivations should be included in that paragraph to offset the sentences referenced to Higham to show scholarly disagreement. Also, is this sentence referenced: "Only the conversion of more of the peoples of the world to Christianity could bring about the end of the world, and thus it was important to support missionary efforts." My problem with this section centers on that sentence which I can not find in Higham and which I think should be tossed out. NancyHeise talk 20:27, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm willing to toss the sentence, (although I disagree with you that it's not covered by the Higham citation, but that's probably because I've got more background on the things that Higham is assuming the reader knows) but I think the other point is covered sufficiently. I've thrown in another cite to cover the fact that more than one historian feels the obvious motive of increasing Christians was behind the mission. (This one is to Stenton's Anglo-Saxon England) Duffy's point is IN the article, and it's common so it doesn't need attribution by name to Duffy, since most scholars writing on it assume it's covered, as 'increasing the number of the faithful" is pretty much the glaringly obvious reason to send out missionaries to convert folks. If i attribute it to Duffy, I'm going to have to attribute it to all the OTHER historians, it's so common. By not attributing it by name, I'm making it clear that it's a motivation commonly held by historians. As for using Duffy as a citation, Google scholar isn't perfect, and we shouldn't base our sourcing on how many hits on that someone has, but rather on the scope of their work and whether it is relevant to the subject. The subject here is the specific mission to the Anglo-Saxons, so I'd think Anglo-Saxon scholars would be more pertinent and better sources to cite than Duffy, who is a scholar of the late middle ages (Here is a search on his works for Google Scholar, if I was writing on late medieval church history into the Dissolution, I'd quote him before I'd quote Higham's words, as in that case, Higham would be operating outside his specialty. Likewise, here on this subject, Duffy's outside his specialty.) If you decide to oppose because I won't cite a late medieval history specialist over an Anglo-Saxon historian, we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC) Furhter note, the offending sentence is gone. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with your sources. I am just stating that Duffy does cover this subject in some detail and has opinions that differ from the sources used. You have presented his POV using another source and I am fine with that. I am also happy that you tossed the sentence that struck me as undue. I have just tweaked the last paragraph in "Motivations" to eliminate weasel words like "probably" and mention the fact that some scholars believe his motivations were for one reason, others for another. Please see the changes and let me know if you are OK with my edit. Thanks. NancyHeise talk 23:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with your edit, but it's kinda a "duh" to say that Gregory's motivation for sending the mission was to increase the number of Christians. I mean, the purpose of the mission was to convert folks, so it is kinda obvious that Gregory was motivated to increase the number of Christians. Surely, he wouldn't have sent the mission hoping they wouldn't succeed in converting the pagans to Christianity? But I'm not going to change your wording, I just kinda feel it's implicit in the whole "missionary endeavour" thing that one purpose was to increase the number of CHristians in the world. It's a "fact" kinda thing, not something subject to scholarly debate. What they DO debate is what other motivations Gregory might have had. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ealdgyth, you can't have a "Motivations" section and not state what scholars actually say, and they actually say that his "motivation" was to increase the number of Christians. I don't think it is "duh" at all but essential to that section. The first sentence in the section says "Some historians take the view that Gregory initiated the mission, although exactly why remains unclear." The last paragraph now states that scholars have theories as to why instead of stating those theories as facts because "exactly why remains unclear". The last paragraph reflects the truth revealed in the first sentence otherwise one would have proven the other wrong and it would have made no sense. If you are fine with this edit, I am now ready to support. I am sorry to have had so much to say about this, I was just trying to give you a thorough FAC review, it was an act of LOVE from me to you! : ) NancyHeise talk 00:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) IT's fine Nancy. (grins). Thanks for the review, I'm always glad to have a thorough one. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section entitled "Composition and arrival" could be expanded with information from the Saints and Sinners book (Yale University Press) pages 69-70 "Just why Gregory should have decided to evangelise England we do not know. The earliest biography, written in England a century after his death, tells how, while still a deacon, he saw handsome, fair-haired Anglo-Saxon boys in Rome. When told they were Angles, he replied, 'They are angels of God,' and immmediately formed a desire to convert the nation from which they had come. The story is quite plausible in itself, and Gregory's interest in this people 'worshipping stocks and stones...at the edge of the world' may well have been aroused by seeing English slaves in the Roman market. Certainly by 595 he was instructing the Rector of the papal patrimony in Gaul to buy up seventeen or eighteen year-old English slave-boys, to be trained as monks in the Roman monasteries. He may already have been looking for interpreters for a mission to England. One year later he despatched his mission, a party of Roman monks led by Augustine, prefect of Gregory's own monastery of St. Andrew"
Nancy, that information is already in the article, under motivations, the first paragraph. And most historians are divided on whether the story is true or not. (It first appears in the Life of Gregory written over a hundred years after the fact, so it may be a fable.) Ealdgyth - Talk 02:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but Duffy states "Certainly by 595 he was instructing the Rector of the papal patrimony in Gaul to buy up seventeen or eighteen year-old English slave-boys, to be trained as monks in the Roman monasteries. He may already have been looking for interpreters for a mission to England. One year later he despatched his mission" and this information is not in that section discussing "Composition and arrival". Duffy is suggesting that Gregory used these purchased English slave boys that were trained as monks as interpreters for that mission. NancyHeise talk 02:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But those boys were not used as interpreters. They got their interpreters from the Frankish kingdoms, as is known from letters Gregory wrote, soliciting interpreters from the Frankish kings. If he had trained slaves as interpreters, he wouldn't have asked for Frankish ones while the missionaries were traveling to Kent. Duffy's off base there. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am certainly not an expert on this subject, I am just relating to you what Duffy says and it strikes me as relevent. Can you just put a sentence that says something like "Some scholars speculate that because Gregory purchases English slaves to be trained as monks, that he had planned to use them as interpreters but other scholars disagree....." or something to that effect to cover the differences in scholarly opinions? NancyHeise talk 02:54, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Further, we don't know if the slaves were ever bought. Markus discusses the letter ordering the purchase, but whether the boys were bought or not is never mentioned again by Markus in his biography of Gregory nor in any other source I've read. It's not that some historians speculate, it's only Duffy. No other historian I've read for this article speculates on that, so I think mentioning it would be undue weight here. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me, if Duffy is the only one to make this speculation its OK to leave it out especially since it is speculation and not a solid fact. NancyHeise talk 12:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ealdgyth, I did some more checking and found that Duffy is not the only scholar to suggest that these English slaves were being sent on the mission - see this Routledge Press book by Donald Logan pages 51 and 52 [5]. I think you should insert this in the article just to cover all POV's.NancyHeise talk 13:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nancy, Logan doesn't say they were interpreters, he says "... quite possibly with a view of sending them on a future mission to their own people." This speculation is already covered in the article. And it's an interpretation that's pretty common among historians. You're asking me to add Duffy's further speculation that they were interpreters instead of missionaries or on top of being missionaries, and it's the interpreter speculation that isn't covered by any other source I've seen. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, right, I see where that information is in "Motivations". I think you're right, I don't see any other authors saying that they were used as interpreters and your article portrays the use of English slave boys properly. I am fine with this. NancyHeise talk 13:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section entitled "Pagan practices". Is there any information that we can include about what pagan practices were? Were they polygamists, slave traders, child sacrificers; did they practice infanticide or other things that conflicted with Christian beliefs? NancyHeise talk 02:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We know next to nothing about the Anglo-Saxon pagan beliefs. We barely know the names of some of their gods. That's about it. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can that be mentioned in the section? NancyHeise talk 02:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It could, but I'm not sure why it needs to be, quite honestly. It strikes me as not really important to the mission itself to explicitly state that we don't know something. There's a link to Anglo-Saxon paganism in the lead, for those interested in specifics. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh OK, I didn't see that link. I dislike Wikipedia's first mention rule about wikilinking. I don't think it helps Readers find information. Although I would like to see that linked in this section, I'll wait and see what others have to say. NancyHeise talk 02:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph you're looking at here is far enough down that I went ahead and threw a link in there too. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that's better. NancyHeise talk 12:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some points Dodwell Anglo-Saxon Art is not in the references, & the notes all misspell "pictoral" for "pictorial" in the other Dodwell. I'd drop the Vespasian Psalter personally, but there is a lost Bible of St Gregory mentioned at Canterbury I'll try to dig up. It's clear from other early AS miniatures (like the Vespasian Psalter) that there were other Italian books around, as you would expect. Looks to be the usual quality generally, but I need to read through properly. Johnbod (talk) 03:49, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I included Vespasian Psalter because there is three/four articles on it out there, getting into the seriously covered territory, but if you feel it's not needed, we can drop it. I'll throw Dodwell in the refs, sometimes I get interupted while adding stuff and the bibliographic stuff gets missed. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added the missing Dodwell and fixed the spelling. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the "Gospel of St Gregory". I'd drop the Vespasian psalter because the evidence connecting it to Augustine is not so much "slight" as non-existent; there has been much controversy on its date, but ranging from c720 (David Wright) and c775 (Wilson, claiming support from others). The earlier view seems to be winning out, but that is still a century too late. There is another MS, I think unilluminated, that is supposed to have some reasonable chance of coming from Italy to the mission, but I can't track it down. Must we convert all book cites to US editions, even where only the original UK edition has been used (Wilson), and where the US reprint was 3 years later (Dodwell, Anglo-Saxon)? I'd have thought some version of WP:ENGVAR should apply; it is very irritating. It's "Burns & Oates" not "Oats", btw. Johnbod (talk) 00:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We should cite the edition we use, you gave a 1984 date on the Wilson, so I assumed it was the US edition that you used. If you used the UK editon, I can switch it out. I cite the US on Dodwell, because that's the edition I have. I'll drop the Vespasian in a second. (I included it as part of an effort to be inclusive on the art stuff! At least I'm hunting for it now!) Ealdgyth - Talk 00:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, Wilson was the UK edn. The "artnet" web ref (ref 12?) is the start of the Grove entry, no? This should be indicated somehow. Johnbod (talk) 01:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Both fixed. Sorry for me misunderstanding about the Wilson ref. My bad. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, all sorted. More below. Johnbod (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review

Not much to do here at all. I'm enjoying the article - will post a full review soon. Awadewit (talk) 15:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've dealt with all but the map. I have a help request out to Mike (who made the map) and Malleus (who is a wizard with non-photographic image files) for help on the map. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pending any changes to the map, I've replaced it with a different, SVG version. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • All image issues have been resolved. Awadewit (talk) 02:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional support This article is well-structured and clearly written. After reading it, I have a clear idea of what the mission was and what it achieved. I was particularly impressed with how well the historical questions about evidence were presented - differing theories were distinct and fairly presented. I've listed a few sentences below that could do with some polishing and/or expansion, but these are minor issues:
  • As well as the delegation's missionary purpose, Gregory probably hoped it would add to the areas in which the primacy of the pope was acknowledged, and perhaps also have an influence over the increasing power of the Kentish state. - This sentence is awkward - "add to the areas" and "have an influence" are not clear phrasings.
* Changed to "As well as the delegation's missionary purpose, Gregory probably hoped it would increase areas acknowledging papal primacy, and perhaps influence the Kentish state." Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How did he think it would influence the Kentish state? Awadewit (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've just removed the phrase from the lead. I can't think of a way to explain it in concise phrasing, and it's borderline being mentioned in the lead anyway. it's more that Kent's power was on the rise when the mission set out, which probably influenced the location more than the motivation behind the mission. (At one point, there was a much longer discussion of this in the lead, which has been slowly whittled away as the rest of the article grew bigger.) Ealdgyth - Talk 02:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Material remains testify to a growing Christian presence, at least until about 360 - What kinds of remains?
  • added examples. Mainly it's objects inscribed with christian symbols, lead basins, etc. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Archaeological evidence suggests that there was much variation in the way that the tribes established themselves in Britain, which implies that the Germanic tribes' settlement aggravated existing problems that caused Roman culture to change from an urban to a rural civilisation. - I don't see the "implication" - I think this material needs to be explained better.
  • I've reworded this to tie it closer into the preceding sentences, and make it's connection more clear. Hopefully this is better? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still don't understand how evidence of a variation in establishment suggests that the Germanic tribes aggravated existing problems. Could you explain it to me slowly? Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some sections of Britain were settled more densely with the tribes. We get that from the number of pagan burials, and the density of them. Burials also show variation with what was in them, some regions have more warrior type goods in the burials than others, suggesting that some regions had more warriors, while other regions had more farming settlement. Some of the burials in places lack weapons and the bones show malnutrition, suggesting peasants were buried there. That make more sense? Ealdgyth - Talk 02:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That makes much more sense - could you explain that way in the article? Awadewit (talk) 18:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I threw it into an explanatory note, since it'd be a big chunk of information that would disrupt the flow of the text. --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • However it happened, the effects of the Anglo-Saxon settlement was that when Augustine arrived in 597, the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms had little continuity with the Roman civilisation that had preceded them in Britain - wordy
  • Reworded to "However it happened, the net effect was that when Augustine arrived in 597, the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms had little continuity with the preceding Roman civilisation." Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other sources include biographies of Pope Gregory, including a life written in Northern England as well as a 9th-century life by a Roman writer - Is there a date for the life written in Northern England?
  • There is some inconsistency in the article's presentation of centuries: some are written as numerals and some are spelled out. Please choose one style and stick with it.
  • Archaeological remains support the notion that there were cultural influences from Francia in England at that time - What kind of remains?
  • My source doesn't specify what sorts, just says "A Frankis presence or at least a marked cultural Frankish influence has long been detected in the archaeological record of southern England in the sixth century." It's cited to two archaeological reports that I don't have access to. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another reason for the pause may have been the receipt of news of the death of King Childebert II, who had been expected to lend the missionaries aid - "lend...aid" seemed like a strange phrase to me - lend them money or give them aid?
  • "Lend aid" is a phrase you'll see often in the older historians works. Have reworded to "... who had been expected to help the missionaries;" Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • When Laurence woke up, he showed the whip marks, which had happened to him physically during the dream, to the new Kentish king, who promptly was converted and recalled the exiled bishops - awkwardly phrased
  • Reworded to "When Laurence woke up the whip mark had miraculously appeared on his body. He showed these marks to the new Kentish king, who promptly was converted and recalled the exiled bishops." It's just an awkward episode!
  • Indeed! Awadewit (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC) Once the image issues are resolved, I will fully support. :) Awadewit (talk) 16:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Working on the image issues next. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have now fully supported! Awadewit (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and comments Ah, bishops travelling through Britain, presumably on horses? Up to your usual standard, so I'll support anyway, but a few concerns jimfbleak (talk) 16:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • As well as the delegation's missionary purpose, Gregory probably hoped it would increase areas acknowledging papal primacy seems inelegant to me. Would something like Gregory probably hoped the delegation would expand the areas acknowledging papal primacy, as well as fulfilling its missionary role. be any better?
    • Evidence for the continued existence of Christianity in the eastern part of Britain during this time... makes it sound as if there was any doubt about the existence - having said that I'm not sure how to improve it
    • Bede no link? Even I've heard of him also Liudhard needs a link
    • "however" sprinkled like confetti. Could you check that they are all necessary, and not just padding?
    • apocalypse - wikilink?
    • Gregory was not popular in Rome, and it was not until Bede's Ecclesisastical History began to circulate that Gregory's cult also took root in Rome. Do we need the second in Rome?

jimfbleak (talk) 16:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Replies.
  • Changed to "add to the areas acknowledging", as the existing areas weren't expanding
  • Liudhard now linked.
  • "Howevers" have been pruned.
  • Apocalypse now linked.
  • Changed to Gregory was not popular in Rome, and it was not until Bede's Ecclesisastical History began to circulate that Gregory's cult also took root there.

--Malleus Fatuorum 16:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anything about Dark Age Britain (from about 400 AD to 650 AD or so) is very... fluid. Especially so for the pre-600 period. We just don't know much. There is Gildas and what Bede wrote, but we need to take both those sources with a big grain of salt. It's assumed that Christianity remained, but it's pretty much an assumption and some meagre bits of evidence. Not much written evidence, and some of the archaeological evidence is equivocal, so it's best to say that evidence is scanty. We're pretty sure there were Christians among the native Britons, but where/how much/how they were organized, etc. is not really known. Make more sense? And thanks Malleus for catching the prose glitches. I do like HOwever though! --Ealdgyth - Talk 16:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • "His wife, Bertha of Kent, was a practising Christian, and before her marriage had been a Frankish princess" - which she remained after it. Why not "His wife, Bertha of Kent, was a Frankish princess and practising Christian."
Fixed. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Augustine was the prior of Gregory's own monastic foundation in Rome," link San Gregorio Magno al Celio. This left me unclear if Gregory was the founder or a monk there - in fact he was both, having set the monastery up in the family house.
Fixed. I've linked it in the body of the article, left it just "Gregory's own monastery" in the lead.--Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "bearing items and books" sounds odd - "bearing books and other items"
Malleus fixed this. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although the missionaries were unable to remain in all of the places they evangelised" - "evangelized" is intransitive without a preposition. Either:"Although the missionaries were unable to remain in all of the places where they had evangelised" or something with "worked" or "made conversions".
Fixed. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by the time the last of them died in 653 they had established themselves" - "by the time the last of the original group died in 653 they had established [something else]" - if they were all dead they hadn't "established themselves". The next bit "and had contributed a Roman tradition to Christianity in Britain" could be improved too.
Changed to "established Christianity" and made the last clause "... had contributed a Roman tradition to the practice of Christianity in Britain." --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and the style of the tonsure haircut" - helps the uninformed I know, but tautology nonetheless.
Changed to "tonsure, or haircut, ..." --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • link Boniface, unless it is not the famous one.(he is linked later, re the synod, & then again - 1 removed). Are we not using "Saint" s?
I generally use "Saint" when discussing events after the saint's death, and since I'm not here, I've avoided it. I find if use Saint all the time it implies that the person was a saint before they became canonized. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 595, when Pope Gregory I decided to send a mission—often called the Gregorian mission" - put last bit in the lead, or drop it.
Fixed. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and if not for the discovery of a gold coin bearing the inscription Leudardus Eps (Eps is an abbreviation of Episcopus, the Latin word for bishop) his existence may have been doubted." -"may" is the wrong tense, and is there not enough documentary evidence to confirm him, by 6th century standards?
The source says his existence might have been doubted. I believe our first evidence for him comes from Bede, not from Gregory's letters, so that may be the reason for possible doubt. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with orders to be consecrated as a bishop if needed" - sounds odd; was he supposed to consecrate himself?
Clarified. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Gregory not only targeted the British..." gets repetitive. Better with last sentence of the para collapsed into this one: "Gregory not only targeted the British with his missionary efforts, but he also supported other missionary endeavours, encouraging bishops and kings to work together for the conversion of non-Christians within their territories.[42][44] He urged the conversion of the heretical Arians in Italy and elsewhere, as well as the conversion of Jews. Also pagans in Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica were the subject of letters to officials, urging their conversion.[43]"
Done. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Some scholars suggest that Gregory's main motivation was to increase the number of Christians;[28] others wonder if more practical matters such as extending the primacy of the papacy to additional provinces and the recruitment of new Christians looking to Rome for leadership were also involved." - reads awkwardly. Rather a distinction without a difference, and why the 2nd is "more practical" than the 1st is not entirely clear. More political perhaps.
Changed to "political" and changed the political at the start of the following sentence to "such". --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the language barrier between the two regions was apparently only a minor obstacle," that this was more minor in Kent than elsewhere in Anglo-Saxon England might need citing.
This is cited at the first following footnote. All the information in the first five sentences is sourced to the footnote at the end of the fifth sentence. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "support from the Frankish kingdom" - weren't there several?
My understanding is that theoretically they were subkingdoms acknowledging one overlord, but I'll change this to "Frankish kings" just to make it more precise. I've been trying to avoid the whole problem of "was it one kingdom with subkings or lots of kingdoms" by some fancy word choice. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Most likely, they halted in the Rhone valley" - not really British FA prose style. I've changed another one just after.

Wider points, that the sources must cover, I'm sure.

  • No mention of the Hiberno-Scottish missions to the Continent, that Gregory must have been aware of (Columbanus was supposed to have sent him letters, though apparently without an answer). Whatever the doziness of the Britons, the Irish had established Luxeuil Abbey in 585-590, and others in Gaul & Germany, & Gregory may well (& correctly) have thought they would start on the Anglo-Saxons if he did not get there first.
  • Markus doesn't mention that as a possible motivation in his work on Gregory, nor do York or Mayr-Harting, both of whom have written reasonably recent works on the conversion. In fact, they both seem to argue that in the end Gregory knew very little of the actual situation on the ground in Britain. If you can find me a cite for that as a possible motivation, I'll be glad to include it, but I've not yet run across it in my (rather extensive) readings. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just I haven't seen it yet. --Ealdgyth - Talk 23:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is the situation on the ground in Gaul & Germany. Am I right that the article does not link to Hiberno-Scottish mission at all? Johnbod (talk) 00:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At one point it did, somewhere. Whether this went elsewhere in the copyedits, I'll have to check. It should. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Has been relinked back in, in the lead and in this section. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Æthelberht must have been aware that paganism was just ceasing to be respectable in the European politics of the day, & that it was getting harder and harder for pagans & Christians to enjoy friendly relations. That some of the Franks were apparently sniffing around claims to his kingdom, which if it remained pagan might easily have obtained Papal support, must have occured to him, one would think. Both the Norman Invasion of England in 1066 and their invasion of Ireland had Papal backing, the Christian powers that be of the time not being well enough in with the Pope.
  • Again, if you can find me a citation for it, I'll include it. Higham, in Convert Kings doesn't mention that as a possible motivation, although he has a number of other possible motivations for Æthelberht converting. --Ealdgyth - Talk 23:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Other than the trip by Laurence, little is known of what undertakings the missionaries performed in the period " - "Other than the trip by Laurence, little is known of the activities of the missionaries in the period" seems better.
  • "The conferred pallium was the symbol of metropolitan status, and signified that Augustine as a new Gregorian archbishop" - Messy - cut "conferred", grammar, why "Gregorian"?
  • Changed to "The pallium was the symbol of metropolitan status, and signified that Augustine was in union with the Roman papacy." --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which for reasons unrecorded never happened" - enough unrecorded reasons follow, cut to "which never happened".
  • The well-known quote from the letter to Mellitus would add character here.
  • Eadbald bit gets rather tangled; maybe needs another look.
  • The whole subject of Eadbald is one of those lovely tangles that historians love to argue about. I've done a copyedit on it, hopefully making it a bit less wooly. --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The missionaries were forced to proceed slowly, and were unable to do much about destroying the pagan practices" - I don't think you destroy a practice, maybe: "The missionaries were forced to proceed slowly, and were unable to eliminate pagan practices, or destroy ...." To have paganism made illegal within 45 years is not bad going! It took Rome far longer.
  • " to combine with the Gaulish and the Irish strands already present" - was there really a Gaulish strand? And the Celtic strand was not just Irish.
  • Yeah, there was, not counting Bertha's bishop, there was also Felix, who came from the continent and was only kinda connected with the Roman missionaries. And there were possibly some Franks present who influenced things. Changed Irish to Hiberno-Irish. --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to Hiberno-British! I notice Wilson, in a similar comment (p.12), treats these two as distinct even in the 660s, also allowing a Frankish strand. Johnbod (talk) 11:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am following these, and will get to them tomorrow if my head stops pounding like a bass drum. (If Malleus doesn't beat me to them) --Ealdgyth - Talk 00:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Late point - A sentence on the introduction of the Roman chant could be added to the last section. Not something I know about. Johnbod (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
DUH! Added. A real "face-palm" moment, there. --Ealdgyth - Talk 15:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A couple more:
  • It should be made clearer that the second meeting with the Brits was with different people at a different place. Their "great monastery" is now Bangor Cathedral.
  • I'm not sure why this level of detail is important? Also, it appears from some works that the monastery Bede talked about (whose monks prayed before the Battle of Chester, which is the great monastery I presume you're referring to..) is actually located in Bangor-on-Dee. (Wallace-Hadrill's Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People p. 54)
  • Anyone reading the text as it is would assume they were the same people in the same place, which was not the case. Since everybody agrees the British side of the matter is under-represented in the sources, I rather agree with Xandar below that where we have information, it should be included. I'm not sure the 7 bishops monastery & the Battle of Chester one are the same - I notice the Fordham Bede translates them differently. Johnbod (talk) 11:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adding this online Bede would be a useful external link.
  • Since there is so much discussion of everybody's motives, the possibility that King A invited them (leaving "initiated" aside), should probably be mentioned quickly. Johnbod (talk) 03:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One of Bertha's biographers states that, influenced by his wife, Æthelberht requested Pope Gregory to send missionaries." in the Immediate background section. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Meets FA criteria, & Ealdgyth's usual high standards. Any chance of her widening her scope to do some of the Celtic church articles, which really need improvement? Johnbod (talk) 16:24, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, my next FAC candidate isn't a bishop or a horse or anyone clerical. It is a person though. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Support. A good, comprehensive article, but there are some quite important flaws.
  • The Lead. I think it needs to state early on that the mission was significant and ultimately successful. It was one of the most significant advances for Christianity of the age, and that needs to be made clear. It had later implications for mission to Germany.
  • The Roman mission however, wasn't the whole story though. After the initial successes, they were pretty much confined to the southern parts, and while they had influence later, Northumbria and the western parts were converted as much by the Irish and others as by the Gregorian missionaries efforts. The part about it being successful within it's limits, however, does need to be mentioned in the lead. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I"ve added a bit to the lead. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. That's definitely an improvement. Xandar 00:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Background" section. This is the biggest problem with the article, as I see it. Starting the section with the withdrawal of the Roman legions in 410 is confusing, since you then go back in time to mention the establishment of Christianity in Britain, then come forward again, to talk about the Anglo Saxons. It would be best to start by stating that Britannia was largely Christian by the end of the 4th century, with details of the Bishops etc., and then go on to the withdrawal of Roman troops and the pagan invasions.
This reads much better now. Thanks. Xandar 00:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mention of the "native celtic church" in this section is confusingly done. The article needs to distinguish between the "British" church, ie the Church of Roman Britain, which survived in Wales and the West of England, and the "Celtic" Church of Ireland and later Western Scotland. I don't think there's a lot of evidence that the British Church developed under influence of missionaries from Ireland - rather the reverse - with Patrick, being a leader in the founding of the Irish church, and Saint David inspiring Irish monasticism and figures such asSaint Finnian. The British Church (as opposed to the Celtic Church) was hostile to evangelising the Saxons.
  • I'll double check this to be sure that the terminology is consistent. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I"ve removed the offending "under influence of Irish missionaries" which I believe was meant to apply to a discussion about the Pictish and northern Britian conversion which later got axed. Should be a bit clearer now. --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think that solves the problem, although ideally I would have liked a little more on the British Church. Xandar 00:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did Roman Culture "change from an urban to a rural civilisation", or did it just break down? I would say the latter. The cities were abandoned, the villas burned, transport, industry, trade and infrastructure broke down. People walled themselves up in towns or old forts. A few years later they were saying the cities had been built by giants. That's not "rural civilisation." So the statement "it is likely that" the former happened, is going too far in the way of endorsing recent revisionist views. The half sentence "..or if it merely was a coincidence that the decline of Roman culture in the later Roman Empire happened at the same time that Germanic tribes settled in Britain, is unclear." Is unneccessary. I've never heard the collapse of the Roman Empire called a coincidence before. Why not just shorten this passage and say that there was a breakdown in Roman society, economic and religious structures when the invaders arrived, rather than get into a debate on reasons for the decline?
  • Current historical thinking is that the barbarian invasions weren't quite so fire-death-and-destruction. And the statement of "coincidence" is exactly what the source states. It is possible that Roman culture was breaking down on the frontiers before the Saxons settled in Britain, we just don't know. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We don't know fully, but the way this section is written implies that we do. The most problematic sentence here is: "Because the archaeological evidence suggests that there was much variation in the way that the tribes established themselves in Britain, it is likely that the Germanic tribes' settlement aggravated existing problems that caused Roman culture to change from an urban to a rural civilisation, rather than the tribes causing the decline on their own." This is referenced to Yorke's 1990 Kings and Kingdoms, which does not seem to state this so boldly, and remains only one view. Her later book the 2006 Conversion of Britain seems in pages 43-45 to return to the view of a more devastating Saxon impact. I would also decline to write off the only contemporary historian, Gildas, as well as the linguistic evidence and that of Britonic flight to Armorica. The very fact that there are no written records argues against the concept of a "rural civilisation." However is this even the article for such a debate to take place? The offending sentence adds little to the main topic. Wouldn't it be simpler just to remove it? (The note could still remain, attached to the previous sentence.) And the issue of what caused the destruction of Roman culture could be left to a more relevant article, with more room to discuss the differing evidence and viewpoints. Xandar 00:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]
I think it's important to note that the Roman urban culture had pretty much vanished by the time the mission arrived, but I've chopped down the offending sentence to "The archaeological evidence suggests that there was much variation in the way that the tribes established themselves in Britain, which happened concurrently with the disappearance of the urban, Roman culture in Britain." which leaves the exact cause of that disappearance to other articles. That work? Ealdgyth - Talk 13:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. That's great. I think that resolves my concerns. Xandar 11:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Motivations", the section starts: "Some historians take the view that Gregory initiated the mission". Surely this should be "Most historians"?
* I had "historians" but Nancy insisted it be changed to only "some historians" ... see the discussion above. --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've read your conversations with Nancy, but this wording still perplexes me. I think Nancy's point was about the motivations some historians apply to Gregory in initiating the mission. However the sentence that starts "Some historians", is written in such a way that it implies that most historians DON'T believe that Gregory initiated the mission! To correct this, (I presume) false impression, would it not be better to recast the sentence into something like: "Historians take the view that Gregory initiated the mission, although some remain unclear as to his precise motivation." or "Some historians remain unclear as to the exact motivation behind Gregory's initiation of the Augustinian Mission."

Xandar 02:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, okay, now it's clearer to me what the problem is. Actually, there are some historians who think Æthelberht initiated the mission, by sending a letter to Gregory asking for a mission to be sent. Ian Wood and Janet Nelson are two of those. (they are mentioned in the paragraph before this) Most historians seem to feel that Gregory was behind the idea of the mission, but those two historians are noted enough in the field to make it impossible for me to say that ALL "historians take the view that Gregory initiated the mission" Can we settle on "Most historians take the view that.."? --Ealdgyth - Talk 12:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That would solve the problem then. Xandar 15:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Saw the FTC, and I've been wondering why Ealdgyth had some articles on her page that weren't featured... :) ceranthor 12:35, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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