Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gerard (archbishop of York)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 03:12, 23 August 2011 [1].

Gerard (archbishop of York)[edit]

Gerard (archbishop of York) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 13:22, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... its not an Archbishop of Canterbury, it's one of their medieval archrivals - the Archbishops of York! And besides, this guy was a witch! Or, well, he was accused of sorcery. Well, actually, he owned a book of astrology and he studied Hebrew ... but these actions were so disturbing to his clergy that they refused to have his body inside York Minster, and it was only later that his body was moved inside the cathedral. Gerard had a bit of a temper - he once kicked over an Archbishop of Canterbury's chair in a fit of anger. He's had a peer review earlier this year, and I managed to finagle Malleus into copyediting on the strength of the "witch" connection. I promise a non-archbishop next... Ealdgyth - Talk 13:22, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Missing bibliographic info for Douglas William the Conqueror
  • Which spelling of medieval/mediaeval does Mozley use? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added Douglas. He actually uses "Mediæval" but I compromised on "mediaeval" .. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:55, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Media Review There are only two images, and it's 2:30 at night, so I'm not going to link them. There's only one issue, and that is that the top image really should have an English description on the file description page. Whether you want to translate the French one that's already there or do something else entirely is up to you, just as long as something is there. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:31, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only problem IS ... I don't speak French enough for that. I wasn't aware that an English language description was part of the FA requirement for images, honestly. A proper license, yes, even a "proper" way of displaying that license I can see.. but Commons is a multi-lingual project, it doesn't require English descriptions, and quite honestly neither should we. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Meh. Though it's not required, I've added a translation, feel free to tweak. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I said "really should" and not "must". There is a set of templates which allow multiple languages to share space in the description, {{en|1= text in English }} being the template for English, {{fr|1= text in French }} for French, etc. The point is not to replace everything with English, the point is to have English available as one of the options for images used on English Wikipedia. I'm stunned that other language projects don't do more of this. I say "really should" because as an FA, this becomes one of the more exposed, and at least for one day, one of the more read articles. The images, as extentions of the articles, should be accessible to the readers. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:59, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support with nitpicks. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Link Lord Chancellor in lead?
  • Some overlinking, for example Whitsun only two paragraphs apart
  • Is "Man and the Isles" the same as the Isle of Man? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Err.. Lord Chancellor is linked in the first sentence. Delinked the second Whitsun, also caught an 'avarice' which had snuck in. Man and the Isles is the diocese of the Isle of Man as well as the northern Scottish isles - Orkney's, Hebrides, etc. Thanks for the review, and sorry for the delay, RL has been kicking my butt very unexpectedly this week. (partly it's the heat we've been having... which doesn't seem to be ending!) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support: No real issues I could see. Very comprehensive and makes the (complicated) issues of the time very easy to understand. Just a few minor points, and feel free to argue. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • "His successor as archbishop did subsequently have Gerard's remains moved from their initial resting place beside the cathedral porch into the cathedral church however." This sentence is a bit clunky; maybe move "however" to the start. And could "did" go? "… as archbishop subsequently had Gerard's remains …"
  • "but it is unclear what caused his loss of office": Maybe "unclear why he lost his office"?
  • Possibly link "Lord Chancellor" to the history section of that article? I think that may give the office a little context.
  • "In 1102, after Anselm had refused to consecrate three bishops, two of whom had received investiture from the king, Gerard offered to consecrate them, but two refused." There is a lot happening in this sentence and it may benefit from splitting. Also, the repetition of two makes it a little confusing on first reading as it is not clear if the same two are being referred to (although this is obviously not important).
  • "At about the same time, Gerard was working to find a mutually acceptable resolution to the Investiture Crisis, and by 1107 King Henry and Anselm had reached an agreement." The implication here is that he played a role in this. If so, are there any more details? If it is not certain, I'm not sure these facts should be in such close proximity.
  • "King Henry proposed that Anselm accept a witnessed oath from Gerard that his profession made to Anselm when he was consecrated Bishop of Hereford would continue in force." This is hard going and I'm not sure "in force" is necessary. What about linking it with the previous sentence to make: "Gerard agreed to a compromise on the matter of obedience to Anselm proposed by King Henry. Gerard gave Anselm a witnessed oath that the profession Gerard had made to Anselm when he was consecrated Bishop of Hereford would continue [or would remain in force]."
  • "A collection of his letters was circulating in the mid-12th century…" What about "was in circulation"?
  • Is there anything more about the accusations of magic? The mind boggles slightly...
  • The lead mentions astrology, but this is not explicit in the main body. Could it be made explicit this is what Julius Firmicus Maternus was about?
  • It may be my browser, but I get note 5 in an odd position to the right of everything else on the page, all on its own. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've dealt with the prose stuff (points 1, 2, 4, 6, 7), but I'll leave Ealdgyth to deal with the stuff that requires some brain power. Malleus Fatuorum 23:29, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've already linked Lord Chancellor in the lead, the article is pretty heavy on links already, I'd prefer to not double link. On the settlement of the Investiture Crisis - I've added a bit more. It was more moral support than anything, but it helped. Unfortunatly, nothing more about the accusations of magic. I've added in that Firmicus was a late Roman astrologer. I'm not seeing it with note 5, I suspect browser issue. Thanks for the review! Ealdgyth - Talk 00:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I missed that link in the lead and it's fine as it is. Everything else cleared up. --Sarastro1 (talk) 13:07, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments: The article has had a good going-over, but I have found a few issues to mizzle about:-

  • "royal clerk" may be misunderstood. A possibly useful link on "clerk" might be this
  • "he was forced to agree to a compromise with his counterpart at Canterbury". Can you clarify what they were compromising about?
  • Bishop of Hereford: I would like to see the second paragraph to be prefaced by a few words, e.g. "Although not in holy orders..."
  • It may not be obvious to the general reader why Gerard's presence at Rufus's hunting party in the New Forest can be deduced from his presence at Hing Henry I's coronation three days later, in Westminster Abbey. A word or two of explanation might be useful
  • Likewise, re Robert Curthose. I know he's linked, but readers shouldn't have to jump to another article to find out who he was. A brief description, e.g. "the king's elder brother and a claimant to the English throne" would do. (I note he is indeed identified as the king's elder brother later, but this should be brought forward).
  • Pipe link translation
  • "He gave generously..." Since the last person mentioned is Thurgot, this should be "Gerard gave generously..."
  • "From 1105 onwards Gerard slowly began to embrace the papal position on the investiture of bishops". Can you in a word or two clarify what the pope's position was? E.g. "against the lay investiture of bishops" (if that is so)?
  • Link cathedral chapter
  • "Gerard complained..." To whom?
  • Death and legacy: "He encouraged..." The last person mentioned is William of Malmesbury, so again, "Gerard encouraged..."
  • "A collection of his letters circulated in the mid-12th century, part of a collection..." Unfortunate repetition of "collection".

Brianboulton (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get to these this afternoon. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:39, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1. linked to that. 2. clarified. 3. Went with "Although not yet ordained,..." 4. Added "...three days later at Winchester, close by the New Forest." 5. Now reads "...because Ranulf had defected to Henry's elder brother Robert Curthose, who also claimed the English throne." 6. Done. 7. Done. 8. Now reads "From 1105 onwards Gerard slowly began to embrace the papal position on investiture of bishops, which opposed laymen investing bishops with the symbols of episcopal authority. As part of his change of position, Gerard withdrew from court to care for his diocese." 9. Done. 10. Now reads "In this correspondence, Gerard complained that some of the York canons... " as it happened in the letters to Anselm mentioned in the previous sentence. 11. Fixed. 12. Seems to have been magically fixed (Malleus?) somewhere along the line. Thanks for the review! Ealdgyth - Talk 18:46, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Guilty as charged. Malleus Fatuorum 19:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
All fine & dandy now. Brianboulton (talk) 20:44, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, except for my Opposition to... the name of the article/title of the man. He was Gerard, Archbishop of York, was he not? "Archbishop of York" is the man's title, not simple a job description. If you need to distinguish between John Brown (clergyman), John Brown (cricketer) and John Brown (servant), then you put the job description into brackets. It is not a title. But in the case of a bishop, or an archbishop, then his job description is also a title. He is Gerard, Archbishop of York in the same way as HRH Prince Andrew is Andrew, Duke of York. The use of brackets and a lower-case "a" for archbishop is taking some inappropriate blanket-rule of Wiki MOS altogether too far. I can't support the article while it has such a ridiculous name. Amandajm (talk) 13:18, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

YOu need to take the title issue up with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility), as this article conforms with that convention. When I started working on the article, it was Gerard, Archbishop of York, but it got moved to conform with the titling convention. I cannot move it elsewhere without not adhering to the MOS as well as getting into an edit war. I'm afraid I can't do anything about your opposition. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:15, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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