Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Emma Louisa Turner/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 19 November 2020 [1].

Emma Louisa Turner[edit]

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Emma Turner was a pioneering photographer and ornithologist, one of few women in her day to gain honorary admission to the then almost totally male scientific societies. Sadly, she has slipped from modern consciousness, but a recent biography brought me back to FAC after many a long month to present you with the life of this extraordinary woman Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass[edit]

  • File:Bittern - Emma Turner.jpg page is dead link: what's the evidence it was published before 1925?
  • Other images are freely licensed, although I question the relevance of images (Bedford and Montagu) that are neither by nor of her. (t · c) buidhe 21:09, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
buidhe many thanks for review. I didn't upload the bittern image myself, so I didn't pick that up, I've replaced with a working citation to the same article (which exists in hard copy anyway) Parry, James; Greenwood, Jeremy (2011). "A double century for Bitterns" (PDF). British Birds. 104 (12): 743–⁠746.. There is a problem with her images in that there are many monochrome images of birds out of copyright, but although I have images of her and her colleagues, many are undated, after 1925 or repeat something we already have, like the houseboat. I opted to have the portraits to give a bit of background rather than either yet more birds or nothing at all Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:53, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The bittern photograph was published in 1911 as Plate 4 "Striking upwards" in Turner, E.L. (1911). "The return of the bittern to Norfolk". British Birds. 5: 90–97. I suggest that this 1911 article is cited in the wiki article. - Aa77zz (talk) 11:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:34, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Aa77zz[edit]

Early life

  • "Turner's mother died in 1880, when she was aged 13, and with the death of her elder sister Mary in 1891, Turner's life appears to have been mainly family-based, even after she started her photographic career, at least until the death of her father, aged 83, in 1913." A rather complex sentence - maybe better to split?
    Done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She was a keen gardener at her homes ..." this sentence doesn't fit well in a section headed Early life (nor perhaps does her 1907 attack when she was 40).

Hickling

  • Why does dry-plate link to a section in Photography rather than the Dry plate article?
  • Whiteslea Estate - Why did the estate control publications on birds of prey? Did the estate own parts of Hickling Broad?
  • I've made it clear that they owned part of the broad. Since she relied on the estate for access and used their gamekeeper, Jim Vincent as a guide, it would be surprising if she did not respect their wishes, nor, presumably, would she want to put the birds at risk Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:04, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Travels to 1923

  • " including black tern" - the black tern?
    Done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A trip to Italy in late 1922 visiting" - in which she visited?
    Done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)Scolt Head[reply]
  • "common terns and Sandwich terns rising from 17 to 800 and from 59 to 640 respectively by 1925, her final year." Did the numbers really increase by this much in just two seasons, 1924 and 1925?
  • Not really, terns will desert a site en masse, this is mush less likely to happen when they are protected. There were always plenty of potential breeders but disturbance would have deterred many Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Recognition

  • "Turner was a vice-president of the RSPB" - I was surprised to see that there were 40 vice-presidents.
  • "unfair and dismissive review of one of her books" - which book and is the review online? Was the criticism partly justified?
  • I've added what I can, named the book and where the review was, and quoted from it. Can't find a link though, and I don't thin it's for me to have an opinion, even if I had access to the full review Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:06, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Last years

  • To whom did she leave her house? House and contents to niece?
  • Perhaps define BTO when mentioned in Recognition section

Legacy

  • Pycraft 1920: the link is currently to page 407, the page before the start of the article.
  • The quote is rather selective - the actual text (on page 409) is about two photographers "Mr. Macpherson and Miss E. L. Turner ..."

Publications

  • The Home Life of Some Marsh Birds has a second author: P H Bahr
  • What was her connection to her co-authors, P H Bahr and Robert Gurney?
  • Added what I can on these, although it's not clear how she knew Bahr. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • consider rejigging order and placing the list of books at the bottom of the section
  • "probably because she could not include records from the Hickling area" Why not?
  • Changed to specify Whiteslea estate, which has already been mentioned in this context. I suspect it applied to Gurney's holdings too, but there is nothing in the sources to verify that. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  • Be consistent in whether you put a full-stop after an author's initial
  • Be consistent in the case used for journal article titles (I would use sentence case)

Did she have a partner for parts of her life? - Aa77zz (talk) 16:23, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • No, she never seemed to have lived with anyone, although she had friends of both sexes Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:41, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aa77zz, all done, I think. Thank you for the thorough review and links Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All looks good, well done. Supported above. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:37, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aa77zz, thanks for the support and your final ce Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:58, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

Spotchecks not done

  • FN4: the source link includes "international" in the title, and the publisher is formatted differently
  • Page ranges should use endashes consistently
  • FN37: suggest just citing a few representative samples rather than citing a search that includes people other than the subject. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for review, I've fixed the first two and followed your suggestion for the third Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:41, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SandyGeorgia (Support)[edit]

  • In remembrance of Awadewit, I am not fond of the images looking off the screen, but I suspect you cannot fix those without causing sandwiched text.
  • No, and the main offender is the infobox image, which I would have to flip. This is the only image I can find that is both dated and definitely out of copyright Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:58, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • and in the 1911 Census she gave ... Should Census be uppercase here?
  • Lots of clauses here, any possibility of splitting somewhere? For a quarter of a century, Turner lived and worked for part of each year,[5] including two winters,[2] at Hickling Broad in Norfolk, mainly on a houseboat of her own design, which she named after the water rail, the first bird that she photographed in The Broads.
  • If this is speculation, should it be attributed inline? This was presumably at the request of the estate, ...
  • Convert, miles and km? ... boat trips to the Farne Islands, six miles away ...
  • ... the middle of WWI she was ... World War I does not need to be linked here, but it could be spelled out.
  • Redundancy ... As well as studying the breeding seabirds, she was also able to monitor ...
  • Vary wording ... She was frequently described ... and had frequent visitors ... frequent twice in same sentence.
  • Should something here be linked or spelled out for those who don't speak British currency? Her estate was valued at probate at £3031 0s 10d.
  • Why is this quote italicized ? and said of the quality of the writing It is as good as anything in the 'Voyage of the Beagle' . WP:BADITALICS
  • Can this be converted to something that avoids passive voice? It has been estimated that Turner produced hundreds, ...
  • I've lost "It has been estimated that" since there is no doubt that it's a true statement. I guess I transferred the source's phrasing Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:58, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to supporting, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:09, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, SandyGeorgia thanks for your helpful review. I enjoyed writing this, a bit different to bird FAs Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:58, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support, looks good, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia, many thanks Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:52, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Aza24[edit]

  • I'll leave more soon but for now, why isn't her full birth and death dates in the parenthesis of the lead sentence? I've never seen just the years before when the dates are available... Aza24 (talk) 08:53, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder if Cambridgeshire is really necessary in the infobox? Seems to just clutter Aza24 (talk) 08:53, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Great, more below:
  • Since you introduce the abbreviation RPS in the lead, you could consider using it the second mention of Royal Photographic Society
  • Ruff (bird) is double linked
  • Would be nice if the second and third paragraphs did not both start with "She"
  • Not sure if this works but to avoid the double "and" maybe "She spent part of each year in Norfolk, traveling widely...
  • Looking throughout far too many paragraphs start with "Turner" – you should probably add more variation, or it's going to read somewhat robotically (this is especially apparent in the recognition and publication sections)
  • "have helped" seems vague, do the sources specify here? I mean there's a big difference between taking complete care of his children or something and giving his family a meal once a week
  • I've made it clearer that it would have been looking after his children, the source is no more specific than that Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:06, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps like wildfowler to the wikitionary entry? I'm not sure how but I know there is a way of doing this outside of the external link (also wikitionary does "wildfowler" while you do "wild-fowler", not sure who is right here)
  • Some continuity issues: "transported to the Broad on a trolley" unsure what this is referring to – you just said "The Broads" as in the rivers and the "Hickling Broad", if it's reffering to the former is should be capitalized. It's also unclear that the "Norfolk Broads" are the same as "The Broads" – the reader shouldn't have to click on the link to figure this out!
  • "a species that had not been recorded as breeding in Britain" – the lead says "United Kingdom", there's a subtle difference between the two, right?
  • "she appeared to have suffered bouts of illness" surely there's now doubt that she did or didn't suffer illness? "appeared" suggests it's uncertain, in my mind at least
  • Image issues:
    • "A bittern by Turner, 1911" would be far more effective if closer to the actual mention of this in the text
    • Not convinced that Edwin Montagu is a big enough figure in her life to warrant an image, would be interested to hear why he's there in the first place
    • So there are really no other images extant? As a reader, even if there are one or two more that survive it would be nice to see them – since so many of her images and lost, I would consider putting this in the lead; if a composer or painter has a lot of lost works this would surely be mentioned in the lead, photography should be no different
  • The problem here is copyright. For example, I have a photograph of her in later life, but it's still in copyright. Having said that, I've just realised that I have an image of her in WWI that I'll add later. Apart from the birds in her earlier books, most other images are undated or definitely copyright. It's the plates that are lost, most of her best images were published, so it's not like a lost Rembrandt Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:06, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What would you think about preparing a small selected list of some articles she wrote? They seem to be an important part of her career
  • Looks great now, thank you for that. Aza24 (talk) 04:50, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stopping at Travels to 1923 for now, a well researched and interesting article so far! Aza24 (talk) 04:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, I've added two more free images, and addressed the remaining couple of points that you listed above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:43, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry Jim I think I was unclear. When I meant adding additionally images I was referring to more photographs that she took of birds. As a "pioneering bird photographer" I'm left curious as to more of these important pictures she took, however if copyright makes this difficult to accomplish, then no worries. As for your changes I still think the image layout is weird, since the years don't match up with the text. How would you feel about moving the bittern image to right above "A highlight of her career was finding in 1911 with Jim Vincent, and photographing, a nesting bittern..." and perhaps removing the 1924 picture but keeping the 1905 and moving it (the 1905) to the top of the hickling section? Also, I'm not sure about the Mary Russell picture, if you do want to keep it, surely it would make more sense to have a picture of Russell that's not 20 years before Turner met her? Will get to reviewing the rest soon, sorry to be such a nuisance over images, there just seem to be issues here still. Aza24 (talk) 04:50, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've done as you've suggested, I'll see if i can find a bird to replace the duchess Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks much better, thanks. Happy to discuss any image things further if you want to go a different route, I don't want to force my opinions on you here. Sorry for the delay, my final comments below:
  • Is there a link for Girton that exists?
  • ", and, as at her former residence, she indulged her passion for gardening in her suburban home." is a little awkwardly phrased. Perhaps something like "and continued to indulge in her passion for..." would be more to the point?
  • "Emma Turner was one of the first four... her as Mr E L Turner" feels like a huge sentence, I wonder if it could be split up?
  • Now ...British Isles. Her involvement in the BTO appeal was unusual enough... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's all I got, good work here. Aza24 (talk) 02:04, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great, and thanks for an enjoyable read. Happy to support this nomination. Aza24 (talk) 07:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TheSandDoctor[edit]

  • Support prose looks becoming of a featured article. Good work! --TheSandDoctor Talk 19:41, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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