Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Egyptian temple/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:20, 16 April 2011 [1].

Egyptian temple[edit]

Egyptian temple (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): A. Parrot (talk) 17:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Egyptian temples were houses for gods, models of the cosmos, hugely important employers and landholders, storage spaces for the knowledge of Egyptian society, and centers of worship for people who were forbidden to enter their most sacred areas. Now they are world-famous tourist attractions. But we didn't have an article on them, as a group, until January. To write this, I looked at every English-language source I could find on the subject from the past 50 years, and I believe I have covered the varied aspects of the topic thoroughly and with reasonable clarity. The article has also been peer reviewed by User:The Land. A. Parrot (talk) 17:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments All the sources look first-class. Minor matters:-

  • Personally I would prefer to see Ref. 157 properly formatted in the citations, rather than as present. Also, the citation supporting the sentence in the text could be specifically to the "Significance of tourism in National Economy" section of the web page, rather than to the whole of it.
I'll format it however you want, but I'm not sure what proper formatting is for a website. A. Parrot (talk) 17:12, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I included the section title and arranged the other elements based on the "cite web" template (which I used in fuller form in "Works cited"). A. Parrot (talk) 17:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the Lipiński text in English? Is it a translation? if so, for consistency the translator's name should be provided.
The studies that I have cited from that text were originally written in English. A. Parrot (talk) 17:12, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No other issus, though no spotchecking carried out since I don't possess these texts. Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support I find this article extraordinarily impressive. The prose is fine, the proportions judicious and the referencing formidable. I think the nominator is to be congratulated. I have quite a few books about ancient Egypt on my shelves, but this article is as impressive as any of them. I make no comment on the images, a subject on which I am far from expert, but all other FA criteria seem to me to be met in spades. (In passing, if you want a convenient way of formatting web references, as mentioned above, you can use WP:cite web. I find it a bit inflexible, but it does its job.) Tim riley (talk) 12:35, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • "Luxor Temple, one of the major New Kingdom temples" - source?
That verges on subject-specific common knowledge, but I added a ref anyway. A. Parrot (talk) 23:47, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Pyramide_Djedkare_Isesi_3.jpg - what source was used to create this reconstruction?
I don't know what sources the creator used, but the reconstruction matches the plan in Wilkinson (2000). A. Parrot (talk) 23:47, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria (talk) 23:27, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I was also looking at the references, and I was very impressed at the number of sources from university presses, exactly what would be required here. I did have a couple of questions about some of the sources, though, mainly the ones that I didn't recognise:

  • (1) 'Bleeker, C. J. (1967). Egyptian Festivals: Enactments of Religious Renewal. E. J. Brill.' - could you say a bit more about how reliable this source is and more about the publisher, which I don't immediately recognise? If it is Brill Publishers, that's fine, but wanted to be sure it was that one.
It's Brill Publishers under a slightly different name. Bleeker was an Egyptologist and for many years the editor of Numen.
  • (2) 'Egypt State Information Service. "Tourism: Intoduction"' - you have a typo there in the title (in the entry under 'Works cited' rather than the main reference entry). How reliable is the Egypt State Information Service - is that the tourism body or the antiquities body? For the information you cite, it is probably reliable, but I would have thought there are other sources that could be used. Technically, I don't think you need to list this one under works cited, but that's a minor quibble.
I'd have thought other sources could be used, too, but I couldn't find anybody who said what I though everybody knew! I can only assume that it draws its economic information from other branches of the Egyptian government. The "information service" of a dictatorial government is not the best source for everything, but I see no reason for deception in this case. A. Parrot (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (3) Several parts of the 'After abandonment' section are sourced to 'Fagan, Brian (2004). The Rape of the Nile: Tomb Robbers, Tourists, and Archaeologists in Egypt, Revised Edition. Westview Press.' Fagan's article describes him as an author of "popular archaeology books" (as well as a professor of anthropology). Is this one of those popular archeology works, or is this a more academic work?
It is written to interest the public, but Fagan notes in the preface that on its first publication (in 1975) it was the only book to survey the subject, and that his Egyptological colleagues have called it a "venerable classic" of Egyptology. The version I cite was updated (for accuracy and more thorough coverage) in 2004. A. Parrot (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (4) Is 'Nederlands Instituut voor het Nabije Oosten' an academic publisher? From this it seems so, but wanted to check. OK, found the English language-page here - it is the 'The Netherlands Institute for the Near East' (NINO) - that looks fine.
  • (5) 'Kemp, Barry (1973). "Temple and town in ancient Egypt". In Ucko, Peter J.; Tringham, Ruth; Dimbleby, G. W. Man, Settlement and Urbanism. Duckworth.' Is 'Duckworth' Gerald Duckworth and Company? How does that compare to the other publishers?
They may well be the same company; that's how the publisher name was listed in the Library of Congress. (I forgot to note some of the publication details for some of these books before they went back to the library, so I looked up those details on the LOC website.) The book, though, is a real academic tome, and Kemp is as respected an Egyptologist as any of the others I cited. A. Parrot (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (6) 'Lipiński, Edward, ed (1978). State and Temple Economy in the Ancient Near East. Departement Oriëntalistiek.' Is 'Departement Oriëntalistiek' the name of the publisher? I did a search for this and I couldn't quite work out what it is.
Apparently it is the publisher (Library of Congress again). It's definitely an academic publication, and Janssen and Goedicke are Egyptologists (except for Fagan and the SIS, I didn't cite anyone who isn't).
  • (7) 'Snape, Steven (1996). Egyptian Temples. Shire Publications.' This stood out among the other sources as not an academic publisher per se. Is it Shire Books and how would it compare to, say, something like Thames and Hudson (which publish some of the other sources you have used)?
It is Shire Books, listed slightly differently. Their Egyptological books aren't nearly as thorough as Thames & Hudson's, but the advantage of a brief book is that it often puts basic information conveniently in one place. That's what I used it for. A. Parrot (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (8) 'Spencer, Patricia (1984). The Egyptian Temple: A Lexicographical Study. Kegan Paul International. ' Same question about 'Kegan Paul International'.
I don't know about the publisher, but trust me, it's the kind of academic book that's so dry, you almost choke on the dust. It examines all the Egyptian words used to refer to a temple or a part of a temple in exhaustive detail. A. Parrot (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (9) 'Teeter, Emily (Summer 1993). "Popular Worship in Ancient Egypt". KMT 4 (2).' - What is KMT? Presumably a journal of some kind? Is it Kmt A Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt? How long has that been around for and how reliable is that? I read the description here, and I'm not sure whether it is a journal or a popular archaeology magazine or something in-between. It self-describes as a "periodical".
They are the same. KMT has only been around for twenty years, but its writers are all qualified Egyptologists, and I've seen other Egyptological works refer to their articles. I think they're trying to be a middle ground between more popular magazines and the stuffy inaccessibility of traditional scholarly journals. A. Parrot (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with using reliable non-academic publications (a broad range of sources is good), but given that there is such an impressive list of academic publications here, I wanted to be certain that the other publications are to the same standards. The article overall is well-written, and I do like the way you round off and end the article. Brings it to a definite conclusion. I will try and read through it again at some point, and add further comments. Carcharoth (talk) 03:21, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the answers on those sources. I'm triply-impressed now by the sources used, particularly the point you make about nearly all of the authors being Egyptologists. The Duckworth book was probably produced under their 'Duckworth Academic' imprint. Shire Books, if they are the booklets I'm thinking about, I'm still a little bit wary of. Is Snape an Egyptologist, the one at Liverpool? Yes he is. OK, no concerns left here. Carcharoth (talk) 05:33, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - a very interesting article to read, only some minor prose quibbles.

  • Lead: "Egyptian temples are temples that were built for the official worship..." ==> avoid redundant start, f.e.: "Egyptian temples were built..."
  • Early Development: "...and a possibly an off-center earthen mound." ==> Typo? Does "possibly" refer to the whole mound or only to it being "off-center"?
  • "However, it is clear that in the Old Kingdom (c. 2686–2181 BC)... " ==> A bit too wordy, could start right off with "In the old Kingdom ...". No need to emphasize clear facts.
  • "Substantial remains from Middle Kingdom temples are rare, but it is clear" ==> Tighten prose a bit, f.e.: "Rare substantial remains from Middle Kingdom show, that..."
  • New Kingdom: "New Kingdom pharaohs also abandoned the pyramid and..." ==> elaborate for clarity, "...abandoned the usage of pyramids as funerary monuments and..."
  • Later Periods: "The Nubian kings of the 8th century BC went beyond that to adopt Egyptian temple architecture for use in their own land, beginning a long tradition of sophisticated Nubian temple building.[49]" ==> Whole text should be moved up to the beginning of paragraph (without "went beyond that to"). The next sentence "Amid the ..." links better with the actual first sentence.
  • "grew increasingly prominent .... became increasingly prominent" ==> rephrase one to avoid repetition.
  • "Temple-building on the Ptolemaic pattern" ==> A bit unclear, which pattern? The article mentions several style changes earlier, but no distinct new pattern. Please clarify.
    • I've addressed all these problems in one way or another. Let me know if any of them still don't seem resolved. A. Parrot (talk) 04:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support The article is comprehensive, well structured and as far as i can tell factually accurate. As sources and images have already been checked, i support that fine article for FA. GermanJoe (talk) 11:26, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
  • "...the Egyptians performed a variety of rituals believed to have real effects through the principles of Egyptian magic." - "magic" is a tad pejorative here.
  • "In Egyptian creation myths, the first temple originated as a shelter for a god, which stood on the mound of land where the process of creation began. Each temple in Egypt, therefore, was equated with this original temple and with the site of creation itself. As the primordial home of the god and the mythological location of the city's founding, the temple was seen as the hub of the region, from which the city's patron god ruled over it.[13" - a bit confusing as to number here. Is there just one first temple and god, & if so which god? Or several of each? If the latter, an "each" near the start would help
  • "most non-ceremonial buildings in temple complexes remained brick-built throughout Egyptian history..." rather conflicts with "Many temples were now built entirely of stone,...." higher up. What about roofs and floors?
  • "The blocks were usually large and irregularly shaped.[69][Note 5] They were usually laid without mortar; each stone was dressed to fit with its neighbors... Once the temple structure was complete, the rough sides of the stones were dressed to create a smooth surface, then decorated with reliefs and paint.[65]" Needs clarifying. The stones used in building don't seem very "irregularly shaped" (unlike say Inca ones). Do you need to distinguish more clearly between large blocks coming from the quarry and smaller shaped ones put into place in a wall? If the stones were only dressed after placing, then the sides will obviously be rougher, and without mortar, gaps visible, which I don't think is typical. No doubt the visible faces (not "sides") of stones were more finely dressed, before or after placing in position. Was there not a plastering stage before paint was applied? Were negative (sunken) reliefs always painted, and all over? The picture here suggests not. Were most surfaces painted? Do you need to distinguish between interior and exterior surfaces?
  • "living rock" - a common phrase I know, but liable to puzzle many; "solid" would do. Were these always built into a cliff or hill, or were some underground structures on flattish land? "enclosed their inner areas within caverns rather than buildings" - slightly awkward - "used excavated chambers rather than buildings for their inner spaces" or something.
  • Barque (a three-masted vessel) is not the link you want I think, & in this context just a fancy word for boat, no? I see there is a section on Egyptian barques - the link should go there.
  • "The shadowy halls, whose columns were often shaped to imitate plants such as lotus or papyrus,..." - the capitals, not the columns, surely? The column shafts may represent the stalk of the plant, but are not exactly "shaped" to reflect this.
  • "In late temples these walls frequently had alternating convex and concave panels,..." a picture would help here. "panels" is probably not the right word. Did the whole height of the wall go in or out at the same time? What scale were these undulations on, inches or yards?
  • "The temple building was elaborately decorated with reliefs and free-standing sculpture ..." and "and in late temples, walls, ceilings, columns, and beams were all decorated,.." it would be helpful to specify the usual focal locations of decoration, and mention paintings. I don't think the whole complex was decorated. The whole "decoration" section could be expanded somewhat. If it were me doing it, I'd add some one line mini-galleries to the most visual sections, but I always say that.
  • There are references to the priesthood being "professionalized" but this is not really explained. Does it mean they became full-time career priests?
  • Does Abu Simbel temples have a link? A second one in the last section could be added anyway. Generally there aren't many mentions of and links to articles on individual temples that we have as examples of features. Luxor Temple is mentioned at points but I can't see a link. Part of the function of an article like this is as a gateway to individual articles, although sadly very few approach this quality at the moment.
I'm copying these comments to the talk page and replying to them there. A. Parrot (talk) 23:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Generally seems very comprehensive & well referenced. Johnbod (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm getting concerned about the linking - the 3rd line (whatever the term used) should link to heka, and our pretty good article on Ancient Egyptian religion doesn't appear to be linked at all, nor our very bad one on Art of Ancient Egypt, or Amarna art (I will have to improve those two). Please look at relevant categories & go right through seeing the article if links should be added. We have 26 articles, plus over 20 in subcats, in Category:Egyptian temples, but despite the request above, not many are linked. I can't believe the others don't provide more useful examples of things mentioned.
  • Further to the first set of points, & the responses on the talk pages, I've looked at the Grove Dictionary of Art online, which answers many questions the existing sources apparently didn't, and has many additional points that might well be mentioned - for example how the foundations & build quality were often pretty poor. If you have access I would urge a reading of this very concise source. Johnbod (talk) 04:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - see above, the talk page, my talk page ....(sigh). Points now sufficiently addressed, though I still can't visualize these wavy walls. It could do with one or two pictures to fill the big white space next to the TOC. Good to see a fine article on a big subject. Johnbod (talk) 23:06, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: To add some of the information to the article that Johnbod requested, I added another source: Egyptian Painting and Relief by Gay Robins, who is also an Egyptologist. A. Parrot (talk) 19:19, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Though I think there is still more scope for links. The Land (talk) 09:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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