Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/American transportation in the Siegfried Line campaign/archive2
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 6 January 2023 [1].
American transportation in the Siegfried Line campaign[edit]
This article is about American transportation in the Siegfried Line campaign. It is the second half of of what was once one article on the logistical support of the American armies between September and December 1944, but the article was split. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Comments from TAOT[edit]
I remember reviewing this last time it came here. Happy to see it back, and I'm hoping we reach a consensus to promote. Comments will come shortly; this is a long article, so I will go section by section. I do have an active FAC as well if you wish to return the favor. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Lead
- "Ardennes Offensive" should be capitalized, yes?
- Uggh. Don't get me started. Per MOS:MILTERMS,
Words such as campaign, offensive, siege, action, pocket, etc., are typically not frequently capitalized in sources, so are lowercase in Wikipedia.
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)- I only brought this up because Battle of the Bulge has "Offensive" capitalized. If MOS says it should be lowercase, then it's fine as is in this article. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Uggh. Don't get me started. Per MOS:MILTERMS,
The subsequent advance to the German border stretched the American logistical system to breaking point
Suggest "to its breaking point".- The Allies should be linked in the first mention, not in the second paragraph.
Additional port capacity was obtained through the development of the ports of Rouen and Le Havre in September and October,
I assume this is meant to mean the first was in September and the second in October? If so, suggest "September and October, respectively".
- More later. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Background
- This is nitpicking (and the article is very well written, so most of my comments will be nitpicking), but in the first sentence, do those emdashes eliminate the need for a DATECOMMA?
This stretched the logistical system to breaking point.
Same comment as I made regarding the lead section.Between 25 August and 12 September, the Allied armies advanced from the D plus 90 phase line, the position the Operation Overlord plan expected to be reached 90 days after D-Day, to the D plus 350 one
I didn't understand this on first reading, due to "D plus 350 one". Wasn't sure if this meant D plus 351, or was a typo. Suggest instead saying "D plus 350 line" or something similar to eliminate confusion.Rather, the problem was the inability to deliver fuel and supplies.
Suggest "deliver fuel and supplies to the front lines" or similar.there was a shortage of suitable vehicles
can you name any examples here (I found 6-ton 6×6 truck in a navbox, for instance) of suitable long-haul vehicles that were in short supply? You name the deuce and a half truck later, which is helpful, and I think examples of what wasn't available would be similarly helpful.- See American logistics in the Northern France campaign#Motor transport for the details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
If six to eight weeks could be gained, then bad weather would set in, further restricting the Allies' mobility, air operations and logistical support.
This is referring to the onset of winter, right? Suggest making that more explicit.
- Will continue in the near future. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:25, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Ports
They were operated by the 16th Major Port, which was relieved by the 5th Major Port in September.
This is referring to military units? It wasn't clear to me at first. I see there's a bit of explanation later in this section (such as IDing the commanding officer); it might be prudent to move that to the first mention so the reader understands the 16th Major Port is referring to a military logistics unit.- suggest linking Harbourmaster.
- In general, what variant of English are you using for this article? I ask because I see both American/Canadian terminology ("railroad car)" and European/Australian terminology ("marshalling yard").
- US military English. Checked this usage against the sources, and "marshalling yard" is what the US military historian uses. Looked at the manual on Joint Logistics and it says "marshalling yard" is the correct term on p. H-2. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Huh. That's peculiar; in normal American English, using "marshalling yard" is never done, that's a distinctly British English term. But if that's the correct term in US military English, you are in the right to use such terminology. Thanks for checking. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
- US military English. Checked this usage against the sources, and "marshalling yard" is what the US military historian uses. Looked at the manual on Joint Logistics and it says "marshalling yard" is the correct term on p. H-2. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
In October 1945, it was turned over to the French.
Might be worth noting this was after the conclusion of the war.The Seine ports had figured prominently in the Overlord plan, but for the supply of the 21st Army Group.
Not sure the "but" is necessary here. Suggest simply "The Seine ports had figured prominently in the Overload plan for the supply of the 21st Army Group".- Link Hydrostatic pressure.
- Piling can be linked to Pile (type of foundation).
- Linked to timber pilings. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- The photo in the Rouen section is interesting, but I don't see how it relates directly to the prose there.
It was situated on the Scheldt River some 55 miles (89 km) inland, but unlike other ports on tidal estuaries, it could receive deep draft vessels on all tides, with a minimum depth at the quays of 27 feet (8.2 m), and the river was still 500 yards (460 m) wide at this point, which gave even the largest vessels ample room to maneuver.
This is quite a long sentence, recommend splitting into two sentences.- Some ports mention when they were returned to French/Belgian control, and others do not. Recommend making this consistent across all ports.
- More to come soon. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Highways
Although the Red Ball Express was the first and most famous express highway delivery route, it was by no means the only one. The first of these was the Red Lion, which ran from 16 September to 12 October, and hauled 18,000 long tons (18,000 t) of supplies from Bayeux to Brussels.
You say the Red Ball Express was first here, but immediately contradict that in the following sentence.
Railways
These were manufactured at Differdange in Luxembourg, and after it was liberated it began producing steel beams for the Allies.
When did the liberation occur? Recommend adding this to the article.- Consider linking "Truck to train transfer" to Transloading.
Over 57,000 railroad cars of various types, including boxcars, flatcars, refrigerator cars and tanker cars were shipped to the continent.
Link tank car.Part of the problem was that the armies liked to keep a certain amount of supplies on wheels, using railroad cars as warehouses on wheels
The use of "on wheels" twice in a row is a bit awkward. I recommend "using railroad cars as mobile warehouses" instead.The vital railway bridge over the Meuse at Namur was struck by a German air raid that set off Allied demolition charges.
When did this happen?
Air
- Consider a comma after "November" in
In November 3,227 long tons (3,279 t) were dispatched by air,
Inland waterways
- Suggest adding a wikilink to Pontoon bridge.
Outcome
- "commincations" is a typo.
- Overall, well written article. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:33, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
- Happy to support on prose. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:49, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
Comments by Wehwalt[edit]
- "From September onwards, an increasing volume of supplies came directly from the United States in Liberty ships that were stowed to make optimal use of cargo space." You have in this sentence "an increasing volume of supplies", that takes a singular verb, and "Liberty ships", that takes a plural noun. You say "were stowed", so I'm forced to assume the Liberty ships were stowed, not the volume of supplies. Yet that seems odd.
- "quayside". "Dockside" seems more American. Not also that this link goes to a waterfront area in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
- The ending of the lede doesn't sound like an ending, but seems to leave off.
- Added another paragraph
- "albeit on reduced scales" This is a bit unclear whether the units were pared down or their rations and supplies were.
- "The German strategy was to conduct a fighting withdrawal to the Siegfried Line (which they called the Westwall) while holding and demolishing the ports and harbors. These would be held as long as possible." Probably these could be combined into one sentence (beginning after the parenthetical) " ... while holding the ports and harbors for as long as possible, and demolishing them".
- "But the only deep-water port in Allied hands-on 25 August was Cherbourg.[32]" unclear why the dash between hands and on
- "engineer supplies" Engineering supplies?
- "as they were being lured away to work on the higher-priority amphibious cargo ships and Boeing B-29 Superfortress programs." Lured? By what incentive? It makes it sound like they were choosing to work on the higher-priority projects, something which may be beyond what ordinary workers would be expected to do. Were there greater incentives such a spay or benefits for the higher priority projects.
- "Naval harbormaster would take the Army's preferences ... office of the Naval Harbor Master" which?
- "439,660 long tons (446,720 t) of Army cargo discharged at Cherbourg by 13 September, just 38.4 percent was unloaded at quayside berths or over LST ramps; the rest was unloaded by DUKWs and lighters.[60]" This sentence should probably start with "Of".
- "bogged vehicles" To me, as an American, "bogged-down" seems more natural.
- "and he devolved the necessary authority" Hm. Similar issue. Maybe "devolved" could be "delegated"?
- "pontons" Again, EngVar (multiple usages). I usually hear pontoons, i.e., the pontoon bridges they have near Seattle. Unless military usage is different.
- "Phoenix breakwaters salvaged from the Mulberry harbour" You linked the mulberry, though it was a while ago. And should it be "harbor"?
- "noted that the entrances Antwerp and Rotterdam could be blocked and mined" Missing word. Also "but 85,000 long tons (86,000 t) accumulated first two weeks of the port's operation."
- "but only 1,358 2-8-0s and 362 0-6-0s were on hand by the end of June.[113]" 1944?
- Hi Wehwalt, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Support Comments by JennyOz[edit]
Placeholder, making a start... JennyOz (talk) 05:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Phew, finally got to the end...
lede
- to give their forces time to - own forces
- attack from German German V-weapons and - typo
Background
- of the Communications Zone as the senior - is already linked just above
- A Bill Mauldin cartoon - i can't see in Mayo, Lida (1968) pdf but found in Thomson, Harry C.; Mayo, Lida (1960) p 299
- and the German forces make be able to take the offensive again - may be able?
Shipping
- on motor transport vessels (MTVs) - just MTs? (x5) (ie per ref and Liberty ship has "and in records are seen as "MT" for Motor Transport vessels"
- or other bulky, heavy items. - comma intentional?
- Yes, but changed to "bulky or heavy"
- An alternate was to discharge in the UK and transfer vehicles - were they to be assembled in UK?
- of urgently-needed equipment - remove hyphen
- In the ETO, this consisted of the - what does "this" refer to here?
- On 6 December, the JCS prohibited selective ... and then later ... ETOUSA managed to unload 115 ships in November? (I got confused with chronology a bit)
Ports
- (and sometimes spelt) "ducks" - US spelling = spelled
- berth at the Digue du Hornet - Homet
- or stowage plans. - Stowage plan for container ships better link or too specific?
- Antwerp was captured on 4 September - captured? why don't they call it liberated?
- Ramsay, noted that the entrances to Antwerp and Rotterdam could be blocked - I can't see that in pdf but does it mean he warned this before 4 Sept? that the entrances may have been already blocked? or may be in the future?
- to clear the Schelt estuary - add d
- a line drawn though the Bassin Albert - typo through
- enough to ban them from Antwerp - ban such ships
- Colonel W. E. Potter - is William Everett Potter?
- accumulated first two weeks - in the first two weeks?
- By 4 January there were nearly - add year
- there were nearly 3,500 railway cars were lying fully - remove second "were"
- decided to activate it as a backup - change "it" to Ghent
- The American sector was operated as under joint - is "as" intentional?
Highways
- in 1,542 trucks carrying average - an average?
- Department removed the tires from unserviceable vehicles - retrieved/recovered?
Railways
Outcome
- The armies make little progress - made
- Worsening weather and stubbon German - stubborn
- especially the newly-opened port - remove hyphen
- than any logistical difficultes - difficulties
- and prepartions were underway - preparations
Captions
- Unloading a locomotive from the USAT Seatrain Texas at - no "the" before prefix? see below
- Unloading a locomotive from the USAT Seatrain Texas at - pipe wlink Seatrain Lines?
- Not sure about this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- I just wondered if a link (somehow) to Seatrain Lines#Ship usage in World War II and Vietnam (which discusses Seatrain Texas) would help reader. No problem. JennyOz (talk) 06:28, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Not sure about this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Rolling stock is discharged from the SS Twickenham Ferry - no "the"?
- alt It is flanked by caucasian - cap C
- Locomotive number 230-273 at the head of a freight train at Lison station. - frag?
Ship prefixes -
- WP:PREFIXSHIP says "Do not use the definite article the before a prefix..." so remove from 2 captions above and from?
- arrival of the first Liberty ship, the SS James B. Weaver, on 28 November
- The USS Miantonomah brought port clearance
Hawkeye, let me know if you need clarification on any of my comments, JennyOz (talk) 13:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- New consistency - Liège v Liege and Rhone v Rhône
Support from Iazyges[edit]
- Previously reviewed this at A-Class review, and take no issue with subsequent changes. Happy to Support as featured quality. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Source review - pass[edit]
Recusing to review.
- Wardlow: the OCLC is 570855416.
- Mayo, 1968ndoes not seem to be used.
- Dick, 2016: any reason why you have not used the "|volume=" parameter? Similarly in other cases, where you abbreviate to "Vol." In the one case I checked it is given in full.
- Ludewig: any reason for the lower-case r in the title of the work?
- Cite 69a clearly evidences that the 28th NCB worked at Le Havre, but how does it establish that "In addition to his own regiment, [Frank F. Bell] ultimately also had ... the Seabees of the 28th Naval Construction Battalion"?
- Cite 9: I don't see that it supports any part of the sentence it appends
- Cite 8: Suggest you amend to "pp. 7–8".
- Cite 2: "The American Operation Cobra, which commenced on 25 July, effected a turnaround in the operational situation by achieving a breakout from the Normandy lodgment area." is cited to Ruppenthal p. 4. Are you sure the page number is correct?
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Where in Ruppenthal 1959, pp. 49–50. does it support "noted on 5 September that ..."? (Footnote 11 suggests 3 September.)
- Where in Pogue 1954, pp. 366–367 does it support either part of "Port operations were interrupted by the German Ardennes offensive, which commenced on 16 December 1944"?
- That is only there to support the date of the German Ardennes offensive. The rest is supported by the next footnote, Bykovsky and Larson p. 323 "Normal port operations at Antwerp were interrupted by the German counteroffensive of mid-December 1944. Because outlying depots and dumps, particularly those in the Liege area, were threatened, large quantities of supplies again accumulated in the port." Placed a duplicate of that footnote after the first comma, so Pogue is only supporting the middle clause. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Gog the Mild (talk) 16:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- Please hold off for a few days. I will re-check everything. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:24, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: I have done a pass through the article re-checking all the references. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- Further random sampling has thrown up no issues. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:32, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: I have done a pass through the article re-checking all the references. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Image review[edit]
- Suggest scaling up all maps and the cartoon
- I had already increased them to upright=1.35. I was under the impression that this was the maximum, but on checking that only applies to the lead image (WP:IMAGESIZE). According to the MOS, we can go as high as upright=1.8 (MOS:IMGSIZE) So increased to that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Some images are missing alt text
- File:6th_and_12th_Army_Group_operations,_15_September_-_7_November_1944.jpg needs a legend. Ditto File:6th_and_12th_Army_Group_operations,_8_November_-_15_December1944.jpg
- Er what do you propose here? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- There are a lot of lines, colours and symbols here - I'd suggest identifying the meaning of whichever you feel are most important for reader understanding. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- Er what do you propose here? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- File:SC_191003-S_Stevedores_unload_POL.jpg: where is that author coming from? The source site doesn't credit the image. Ditto File:Bastogne_resupply1944_sm.jpg
- United States Army Signal Corps image. The Signal Corps ID number (191003-S) can be found at the bottom left of the image and the Signal Corps logo at the bottom right. Ditto for the Bastogne image; its signal corps ID number (415376) can be found on the lower right. This was written on the photographic negative with a marker, and comes out white in the developed photograph. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- File:Rade_de_Cherbourg-fr.svg: what is the source of the data presented?
- Google maps according to the creator of the image. Adding the source of the information in the image is frowned upon at Commons, because people confuse it with the source of the image itself. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- I've not heard that, do you have a link to that policy? It's a very odd idea - as long as it's clear what a source is for I wouldn't expect that to be a problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- On Wikipedia. On Commons there's an issue of what constitutes a derivative work. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- Could you share the policy or discussion on Commons where that is laid out? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- On Wikipedia. On Commons there's an issue of what constitutes a derivative work. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- I've not heard that, do you have a link to that policy? It's a very odd idea - as long as it's clear what a source is for I wouldn't expect that to be a problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- Google maps according to the creator of the image. Adding the source of the information in the image is frowned upon at Commons, because people confuse it with the source of the image itself. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Nikkimaria (talk) 17:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- In the unlikely event that Nikkimaria feels there isn't, can I flag up that it is extremely unlikely that the closing coordinator will consider "Travail personnel avec [Google Maps]" to be a high quality source, or even a reliable one. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Google maps as a reliable source was discussed as a source at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 388#Google Maps. On Commons WP:OR and WP:MAPCITE do not apply. I am not using the map as a source myself. I could use File:Cherbourg - demolitions and underwater obstacles-1.jpg and File:Cherbourg - demolitions and underwater obstacles-2.jpg instead. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- The source of these images (Crist) could be used for WP:V on Wikipedia, but that policy does not apply on Commons either. Instead Commons has an essay Commons:Verifiability which says "Commons does not require reliable sources or any independent evidence that an image or other file contains what it purports to contain." There is another essay, Commons:Evidence-based mapping, which says: "English Wikipedia has a well-earned reputation for valuing accuracy and verifiability in its texts. It also uses media files from Wikimedia Commons, which, however, has different rules than English Wikipedia. Commons values free artistic expression above all else, including accuracy and verifiability, as long as nobody's copyright is violated. Therefore, you can still 'get away with' a lot of unsourced, inaccurate and misleading visual information on Commons, especially in mapping."
- This essay contains a section on English Wikipedia policies and conventions which summaries the results of two long discussions about this matter in May and July 2021, and the policies and guidelines that apply here on Wikipedia.
- With great reluctance I have switched to the alternative multiple map. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- In the unlikely event that Nikkimaria feels there isn't, can I flag up that it is extremely unlikely that the closing coordinator will consider "Travail personnel avec [Google Maps]" to be a high quality source, or even a reliable one. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
SC[edit]
Support. An interesting piece. I made a few minor tweaks on my readthrough – feel free to delete anything inappropriate. Just two comments, neither of which will affect my support:
- "Over 15,000 vehicles were deadlined": I'm not sure what "deadlined" means – as the term appears a few times, is there a way to translate?
- Deadlined: "A military term used to describe the operational condition of a piece of equipment. It means the equipment in question is NMC [not military capable] or is broken down. Equipment can be deadlined for safety reasons such as fuel leaks, inop headlights, Missing seatbelts, etc." Urban dictionary Added a link to the wiktionary definition. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- "US forces would be supported over the Omaha and Utah landing beaches": "over"? I'd expect to see "through" the beaches, port, etc, but if this is an AmEng thing, then ignore
- "Over the beach" (OTB) is the usual military idiom. See JP 3-02, Amphibious Operations for examples. We have an article, over-the-beach capability. So "through the port" but "over the beach". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Hog Farm Talk 04:02, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.