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Natalia Toreeva

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Toreeva on 17:48, 29 October 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

And for independent editors the article should be looked for review as it was before cut (10/13/2019). Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

You closed my request bec. I did not include the names of editors. They are: 1)Theroadislong, 2)Spintendo, 3)Seraphimblade. Since I was put to COI, #1 told me to use Help request for editing, so I req. to add one citation to Memberships section. #2 started editing, and deleted some of the text. Than #1 jumped and started discussion that some of the info not reliable. Than someone probably asked #3 to delete some text in the article. I put in Talk the discussion for each section where citations were missed by doing so, or misplaced. After that #1 wrote that the article should go to articles for deletion. It looks they don't have the knowledge of Russian lang, or/and Russian Art of 70-80th, and since most citations were written in Russian, they just deleted. So #3 deleted almost all sections including career, Memberships, Exhibitions, Bibliography, Books, those important info for the artist. And I disagree with it.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Natalia Toreeva

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

To find the editor(s) with a good faith and knowledge of Russian lang and/or Russian Art, who is willing to help with editing of the article.

Summary of dispute by Theroadislong

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

It's clearly irrelevant that I don't "have the knowledge of Russian lang, or/and Russian Art of 70-80th", content has been added without reliable independent sources, notability has not been established, there are no in-depth sources which cover her and the article is being used like a personal website to promote her art works. Theroadislong (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Spintendo

The question of WP:N is beyond my purview as COI edit request reviewer, which deals only in content considerations. The only changes I made to the article were to (a) limit the descriptions of the art exhibits to just titles, dates and locations; (b) placing the images which were already in the article into a gallery template; (c) and working with the COI editor to get the right references posted to what was left after the my removal of the extraneous text. But all of that is a moot point if the article does not meet the requirements for notability. Thus, I deferred any further involvement to the other local editors listed here. Warm regards,  Spintendo  22:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Seraphimblade

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This appears to me to be standard misuse of Wikipedia as a web host. I'll take a look for better sources, and if I cannot find them will nominate for AfD, where the question of notability will be settled. I see no need for DRN here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Natalia Toreeva discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - The filing editor forgot to notify the other editors. Two of the other editors have responded anyway. I have notified the third editor, Spintendo. One of the editors has said that they do not think that DRN is in order. Participation here is voluntary. If the issue is whether the subject meets biographical notability, that can be discussed at AFD. If the filing editor wants a Russian-knowledgeable collaborator, I suggest inquiring at WT:WikiProject Russia. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Robert McClenon (talk), I am not surprised that all 3 editors appeared here, bec. I made my input abt DRN request on my Talk page. If you would read the Talk page, you would see it. As an example of that these editors don't understand Art: Seraphimblade deleted all Membership section, where official Russian website "Artists Trade Union of Russia" was included, and it is in English: http://www.painters.artunion.ru/e2-17-1.htm/. Another web that I asked to add was Society of Children's Books Writers and Illustrations, also official website (located in LA, US): https://www.scbwi.org/member-search/ just type Toreeva, also in English. Spintendo added this site to Memberships section as notable input, but than supported deletion after Seraphimblade deleted almost all sections. Is it retaliation, or not knowing of the content? You can look wikipedia for another artist Alek Rapoport, but please don't destroy it, as you try to do with this Article, just as example of description of the artist.

And please don't be bias. I'm asking for ban these editors whose opinion is already defined, and it is wasting time for further discussion, and I'm asking for another editor(s) to look into DRN request bec. I hoped they will find the resolution with a good faith. Do you have the manager(s) who would look into the organization problem or please give me email to the owner of wikipedia, so I can discuss? Regards, Toreeva (talk) 15:20, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, I have a degree in Fine Art, I have been editing for 12 years, I have more than 75,0000 articles on my watch list and have created more than 100 articles on a wide variety of subjects, I also spend many hours every day reviewing new articles for creation. You mention the article Alek Rapoport as an example, but this article is also VERY poorly sourced, see other stuff exists. Wikipedia is not a venue for you to promote your own work. Theroadislong (talk) 15:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Theroadislong, Than you have to delete/correct your own Article where as you told "you have uploaded to wikipedia" the thousand of photos, and using also "I created..", "I edited..". Should it be deleted as promotional? I don't want to give Articles of my other friends artists whose structure I also used as an example for the Article, as I don't want you hurt them also. And as you mentioned you have degree in Fine Art, why you support Seraphimblade who deleted Toreeva's 2 Masters degrees, MA in Art (in Russia) and MS in Computer Science (in US)? In Russia, she worked as the Costume designer on film studio, and in US she is retired CS engineer and System Analyst. This is the important part of education and career - not promotional things, but facts. Where is the logic? Something with not good faith motivation and attitude is behind of willing to reject the Article, not real facts. I don't think contin. of debate will bring the positive fruits, so I don't think the debates with 3 of you are needed.
Robert McClenon, can you ask independent editor(s) to restore the Article that was cut after 10-14-2019, and to do editing with the fresh mind? Regards, Toreeva (talk) 00:18, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Toreeva, Wikipedia doesn't have "managers" or an "owner". It is run and managed by the volunteer editors. And while I am trying to look for better sources (thus far, in addition to standard web resources, I've also tried via a couple of different library databases), but I'm afraid I'm coming up empty. I've also tried searching in Russian, but same that way, just name drops. Ultimately, whether or not we can have an article on someone or something comes down to the amount of available reliable source material about that subject. It is not any judgment on the worth or merit of the individual or their work. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

First Statement by Volunteer Moderator

Please read the ground rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your answers and questions to me. The first question, for User:Theroadislong and User:Seraphimblade is: Do either of you intend to nominate the article for deletion via Articles for Deletion? If so, we will close this discussion and allow the deletion debate to run its course. If not, I will determine whether there are any content issues that can be addressed by moderated discussion leading to compromise.

The only question to be answered at this point is whether there will be a deletion discussion. Please reply within 36 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 31 October 2019 (UTC)


First Statements by Editors

  • Thank you Robert McClenon I would prefer the content issues to be resolved first, so we have a clearer idea of whether Toreeva passes WP:ARTIST. Theroadislong (talk) 10:04, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • As far as content goes, I too, have conducted searches of the subject, through the CSU database, EBSCO, ARTstor, and ProQuest Dissertations and Theses and found nothing. The only .edu related publication I could find was her work published in Prairie Light Review, the juried liberal-arts publication produced twice per year by student editors enrolled in English 2210 at the College of DuPage. There is also her published work as indexed by WorldCat. (Robert, I'm hoping I placed my comments in the right place.) Regards,  Spintendo  14:49, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • As above, I've also come up pretty empty, either stuff by her (as opposed to about her, so does nothing for notability), or some name drops or brief blurbs. Since the others here also seem to have substantial doubts, I suspect I will be making a request at AfD. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Second Statement by Moderator

User:Theroadislong wants to resolve content issues first. In that case, I suggest that User:Seraphimblade and User:Spintendo either take part in the content discussion or wait for file the AFD. We can have a content discussion first, then an AFD, which will close this thread. If the article survives the AFD, another content discussion can be opened. User:Theroadislong: What content issue or issues do you wish to address? Please be concise, no more than two paragraphs. Any other editors may also identify content issues. I probably will not spend a long time resolving the content issue, because there will be an AFD, but let's outline what the content issues are. Remember that Wikipedia policy is neutral point of view and that Wikipedia is based on secondary reliable sources. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:36, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

If anyone wants to engage in useless back-and-forth discussion, I have provided a section. Please address your main statements to me in the section for the purpose.

Second Statements by Editors

The content issues are, that the article has no independent reliable in-depth sources with which to establish notability and like the others I have not managed to find any. I am happy for it to go to WP:AFD but thought it only fair for the article creator to be given the chance to provide them. Theroadislong (talk) 18:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Back-and-Forth, if desired

.* Hello Robert McClenon (talk), Yes, it is, as you said, "useless" discussion. I opened DRN asking to have independent editor(s) who would look into the issue, but you still asking the same editors to discuss, who have already made their bias opinion, based not on good faith and knowledge, but with retaliation attitude. For example, Theroadislong (talk) using his power, now deleted my name in other articles where I did contributions, as "failed verification" or "irrelevant". How it can be failed for example, in http://www.encspb.ru/object/2855704621?lc=ru (in Russian), where Toreeva's name is among the art group of "School of Sidlin"? And this citation is the real information from the St. Petersburg Russian encyclopedia web. Is it the right way to solve the problem? What is a shame and disgrace! I don't think we should continue to "discuss" it further. How "low" you can go? Not me. Where is the purpose in your life, God has given you? Where is your integrity? You reached your destination. Have a peace in your decision. For independent editors I would suggest to look for review of this article when it was before cut (10-13-2019). Regards,Toreeva (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Akaike information criterion

– New discussion.
Filed by Bender235 on 20:01, 19 October 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

For a month now, there has been a content dispute between BetterMath and myself, about how to define a particular statistic called the Akaike information criterion (AIC) in a precise and intuitive way in the article's opening sentence. As of right now, the article describes the AIC as "an estimator of the relative quality of statistical models," which in my opinion is unnecessarily vague because "quality of a model" is so intangible that it is not even wrong. To give an analogy, it is a little bit like calling the Human Development Index (HDI) "an estimator of the relative quality of a country." Obviously the current lead of HDI describes it more precisely as a "composite index of life expectancy, education, and per capita income indicators," simply because this is what the HDI actually measures, i.e. the proxies of economic development. Similarly, the AIC approximates the "quality of a model" from prediction (or forecasting) error. The closer on target, the better the model. Because this is what AIC measures, I wanted to amend the current opening sentence with five words to "...an estimator of out-of-sample prediction error and thereby the relative quality...", but BetterMath objected.

My contribution is supported by two reliable sources that confirm the proposed definition nearly verbatim. BetterMath has brushed them aside, claiming them to be "undergraduate textbooks" (which in fact neither of them is) that contained "errors." Trying to point out those errors, BetterMath demonstrated a stunning lack of understanding of basic statistical concepts, like the difference between "in-sample" and "out-of-sample" statistics, which (after a month of good-faith discussion) makes me seriously doubt his ability to accurately judge the subject at hand. This content dispute is in dire need of a third opinion.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Akaike_information_criterion#"relative_quality_of_statistical_models"

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Ideally, somebody with sufficient knowledge in statistics could settle the issue by deciding whether the proposed definition is correct or not. But apart from that, generally any third person could look at this content dispute and decide on whose side the "burden of proof" now falls. In addition to the two sources referenced in the article, I have presented three more on the article talk page, whereas BetterMath has yet to produce a single source that contradicts any of the once listed.

Summary of dispute by BetterMath

For anyone involved in this dispute, it would be helpful to have some understanding of statistical models. An informal introduction is enough, and is given by Statistical model#Introduction. (Perhaps read that before reading the following.)

Assume that we have some data. Suppose that we also have several statistical models of the data. Some of those models will be better than others for modeling the data. We want to select the model that is in some sense the best model for the data. AIC provides a method for selecting. (It is based on information theory.)

Once we have selected a model, we can use the model to make predictions (also called forecasts). Predictions will rarely be perfect; rather, they will usually have some error.

Suppose that the data points are statistically independent. Then, it can be shown that AIC has a nice property: AIC selects the model that has the minimal expected error when making predictions.

The main issue on which Bender235 and I are in dispute is the following.

If the data points are not independent, then in general, we do not know what properties the prediction errors have. Bender235, however, does not accept that; instead, Bender235 claims that every model selected via AIC has the above-noted nice property. I have explained the issue in detail, and provided several reliable sources. All to only little effect.

In addition to the above issue, Bender235 has claimed that using the term quality of a model in the lead of the article is “unnecessarily vague”. The term is defined informally in the lead (second paragraph). A more formal definition is in the first section of the article: Akaike information criterion#Definition. That definition is somewhat technical (relying on the Kullback–Leibler divergence). I believe that the current approach, giving an informal definition in the lead, well adheres to WP:Lead#Provide an accessible overview.

BetterMath (talk) 20:17, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Akaike information criterion discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

@BetterMath: I feel like this dispute can actually resolved very easily: in a situation with statistically dependent observations, imagine we have two competing models, and we calculate AIC for each of them. The one with lower AIC is the "better" one, but better in what sense? What does it do better than the other model? The answer is either (a) the "better" model predicts better, i.e. with less error, or (b) we don't know, because AIC is not applicable here, so whatever value it has is irrelevant and it cannot be used for model selection. Which one is it? --bender235 (talk) 20:47, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Shahrbanu

– New discussion.
Filed by LissanX on 23:07, 3 November 2019 .

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, though only one user, Kansas Bear (talk · contribs), has commented.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Some users have been wiping content to enforce a one-sided non-neutral view. This line, complete with multiple sources, is consistently removed:

The date of reports, however, coincide with the golden age of Hadith compilations, with the Shia Four Books and Sunni Six Books all being released around the 9th century, as written Islamic reports were sparse prior to this period.

From this paragraph:

Islamic writers, such as al-Mubarrad, Ya'qubi and al-Kulayni, wrote the earliest reports of Shahrbanu and her imperial Persian background from the 9th century onward. However, the earliest sources make no mention of the mother of Ali ibn Husayn, nor do they ascribe him with maternal royal ancestry. The first references were from Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Qutaybah, also in the 9th century, who instead describe her as being a slave from Sindh. The Encyclopædia Iranica alleges that Shahrbanu was "undeniably legendary".

It was removed twice (1 and 2) for two completely different purported reasons. It’s clear that these revisions are simply to censor the fact that the 9th century Islamic texts are credible and are not necessarily unreliable as the mutilated version of the paragraph suggests.

The content of the added content is thoroughly corroborated by the relevant facts, such as the following dates of the Hadith compilations referenced:

The Six Books:

The Four Books:

And the fact that the earliest known Hadith compilations were Kitab Sulaym ibn Qays by Sulaym ibn Qays (died c. 689-709) for Shias and Sahifah Hammam ibn Munabbih by Hammam ibn Munabbih (died 719 CE) for Sunnis.

These facts were substantiated by comprehensive citations.

In addition to this, the translation of name of the person whom the article is about is also arbitrarily reverted each time.

Attempts to take personal control of the article has meant that they are not even willing to tolerate one line on the same paragraph, not even a simple name translation.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Shahrbanu#Censoring_Content

User_talk:Alivardi#Arbitrarily_wiping_content_on_Shahrbanu

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I would like for the content to be allowed for fair and neutral content to be displayed in the article. To have multiple claims of the unreliability of 9th century texts be presented, while removing one line saying that 9th century texts are also considered credible to provide a complete, appropriate outlook, is disruptive editing. — LissanX (talk) 23:07, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not yet notified the other two editors of this filing. Please do not refer to a content dispute about the reliability of sources as censorship. Please read Yelling Censorship, and wait for a volunteer to facilitate a discussion of the reliability of sources. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:52, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Stephen McAllister_(lawyer)

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by 63.232.78.66 on 17:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Marquardtika is endeavoring to conceal facts of great public concern about a public figure. S/he would seemingly have the Wikipedia page mirror the official biographies published on the University of Kansas and Department of Justice websites, notwithstanding that such are clearly slanted to shown the figure (Mr. McAllister) in a favorable light.

As we all know, the public gets the vast majority of its information from open sources such as Wikipedia. The public deserves to know the WHOLE truth about the subject matter or person being searched, not just the white-washed version. In the instant case, a user added information to make the point that Mr. McAllister has been the subject of controversy throughout his tenure in public service, a point that cannot be controverted (citations were included). The user did not make any insinuation as to the merit or veracity of any argument put forth, nor did the user even come down on a particular side of any of the many controversies enumerated. The user simply made the point that there has been much controversy surrounding Mr. McAlister over the years, and provided the links for the public to articles and other sources for the public to digest and form their own conclusions.

Yet Marquardtika would deny the public not only the underlying factual information (e.g., the original sources provided via citation), but even the basic fact that there has been controversy. What Marquardtika is engaging in is ostensibly censorship, plain and simple.

What concerns me any more, examining the revision history, is how quickly Marquardtika responded to the initial edit. It was as if he was trying to hide information or re-conceal it before large swaths of the public had a chance to view the "fuller picture." Moreover, he did not incorporate any of the proposed additions or citations; he merely clicked "undo" to revert the page back to his version. This seems to have sparked an childish "undo" battle.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

The revision history of this page shows Marquardtika completely undoing an edit made by a user that exposes certain controversies and past scandals surrounding the subject of the page, Stephen McAllister. The controversies and scandals have been reported on by national news agencies. They are cited and easily verifiable. Yet Marquardtika is using "Wiki-speak" in a desperate attempt to keep the fact that there has been controversy out of the public light. He seems unwilling to compromise.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Relevance is a very low threshold, particularly when it comes to public officials. All of the added information is certainly relevant to the general public. It concerns publicly available and reported-on facts. The public deserves to know the truth and the WHOLE truth, not just the cherry-picked facts by some ex-journalist in Texas. The way Marquardtika is so defensive about this page leads me to believe he is in the pockets of McAllister or someone related to him. There is no other explanation.

Summary of dispute by Marquardtika

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Stephen McAllister_(lawyer) discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jack Buckby

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Rosswikieditor on 10:50, 14 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Jack Buckby is an author and researcher who was previously involved with the far right. His most recent work and writing disavows the far right. I take particular interest in ensuring Wikipedia remains neutral, so I felt compelled to join and work on this page. I am not paid and do not have any personal stake in this, despite user DavidGerard's attempt to suggest I do.

User David Gerard's repeated edits have made the content misleading, which I assume is simply an error on his behalf and he is simply mistaken. However, it is worth noting that this same user is an editor for RationalWiki, a page which explicitly calls Buckby a white nationalist and an anti-Semite. The site is extremely politically biased, and quite dissimilar to Wikipedia in that way.

It is essential that the Buckby page accurately represents who Buckby is. Many secondary sources reference work from Buckby dating back to 2012, whereas some primary sources show important information about his more recent work (2019) campaigning and writing against political extremism. This includes work at a think tank, and a book published by a major publishing house, along with his own writing published on his website and at AmericanThinker.

So that Wikipedia is not giving an outdated view of the person in question, some primary sources (though, not many) are required to ensure that a fair, unbiased picture is painted in this biography.

Failure to properly reference and include Buckby's most recent work will paint a misleading and inaccurate picture about this person.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rosswikieditor

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Another pair of eyes would be helpful, making sure that this page doesn't just use outdated secondary sources and bypass select primary sources for the sake of technicalities - particularly when that means the information Wikipedia presents is out of date and it mischaracterises the person in question.

Summary of dispute by DavidGerard

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Jack Buckby discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Call-out culture

– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Sridc on 23:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The two users mentioned are intent on maintaining the status quo which a) has inaccurate description in the lead paragraph (re: accountability), and b) is not actually mentioned in the reference it uses (The Next Web). One of them also reinstated the two feminist sources which has already been established to be irrelevant to the article (not to mention highly biased, and not neutral at all).

My edit, replaces the first two paragraphs with a more accurate description of 'cancel culture' cited by two best sources I could find. They are patently better than what the article had before.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

- Talk:Call-out_culture#Opening_paragraph

- Talk:Call-out_culture#The_two_feminist_sources

- Talk:Call-out_culture#undue — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sridc (talk • contribs) 04:05, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Neutral parties, who can make an unbiased judgement.

Summary of dispute by Bacondrum

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:27, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I feel like Sridc is being unreasonable, and is clearly WP:NOTHERE, They've done nothing but make blatantly biased edits, edit war and try to get others blocked. Bacondrum (talk) 14:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I posted it before the guidelines were posted below. Bacondrum (talk) 09:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Aquillion

I think that the fact that the filer describes the two highly-relevant sources they tried to remove as "feminist" (technically, in the sense that they were published in peer-reviewed journals on feminism) says everything that needs to be said. Those sources are clearly relevant - they discuss call-out culture directly from the perspective of experts in the field where the term is most frequently used - and it's reasonably clear that they were removed because the editor disliked the fact that they were published in a peer-reviewed journal. (EDIT: On closer inspection, this may have been a mix-up caused by the sources in question getting moved to the wrong part of the lead at some point in the past; they were accidentally placed with the "cancel culture" subparagraph when they discuss "call-out culture", which led to them getting removed for not referencing cancel culture.) --Aquillion (talk) 00:09, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Call-out culture discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - There has been discussion at the article talk page. There is also discussion at WP:ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:12, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Question - Are the parties willing to discuss content and not contributors, and to be civil and concise? If the parties agree that this is a content dispute, I will try to mediate, and to facilitate compromise. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:12, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: - I'm willing to discuss content and not contributors, and to be civil and concise. I'd greatly appreciate a mediator, thanks. (I'm new to this process). Presently, there is a dispute over adding content from Cancel culture (before the merge) back to this article; see Talk:Call-out_culture#Popular_culture. - Sridc (talk) 02:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Address your comments to me below, or exchange your comments in the space below. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: - Hi again, Robert. If you are willing to continue to provide your attention for a little more time, I'd like to give the larger context behind the upcoming edits. As simple as possible, Call-out culture used to have a lot of excellent contributions (see rev), but over the course of this year most of it gradually got deleted by some editors (notably User:Bacondrum). The editors of these contributions raised their objection; for example, from May this year, @DeRossitt: stated "You're undoing a lot of excellent contributions to this article, and you've cut the great majority of the text that was extensive and well-supported" (ref). What I'd like to do is to reinstate these "excellent contributions" (at least the best of them) back into the current article. I'd really like your help (or anybody else's) so as to prevent similar vandalizing of any such attempts. Thank you. - Sridc (talk) 03:59, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Come on, I'm more than willing to have this dispute mediated, but this guy is already focusing on me rather than content - insinuating that I'm the problem, trying to ping in other editors to gang up on me and calling my edits vandalism and asking the mediator to help then reinstate their contested edits. How am I supposed to have a civil discussion in this context. Bacondrum (talk) 04:05, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
@Bacondrum: Now that I've had the chance to finish reading the Talk page archive, I'll retract my statement re: 'vandalizing'. I do however still think that the mass deletion has been quite unreasonable; some of the best content has been lost en masse without due consideration for improving the article. Let's do a better job this time. - Sridc (talk) 04:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Do I really have to put up with this? Bacondrum (talk) 04:27, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I really have to object to the above comments, they are about me not the content being disputed. I'm even described as a vandal, although retracted it's still a blatant violation of the ground rules. Bacondrum (talk) 09:52, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

First Statement by Volunteer Moderator

I will try to moderate this dispute. I do not start out with any particular knowledge of the subject, although I am aware what the Call-out culture is said to be. However, Wikipedia must present a neutral view of what reliable sources say. It is up to the parties to present those sources and their reasoning. Read the ground rules. Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise. Any comments about specific editors, or conduct allegations, may be collapsed, and the editor may be cautioned. Civility is required in Wikipedia, and especially in dispute resolution, where it is in short supply. Each editor should state, in no more than two paragraphs, how they think the article should be improved and why, or what they think should be kept as it is, and why. Do not reply to statements by other editors. If you must engage in back-and-forth argument, do it in the section provided, and we can ignore it.

If there are multiple violations of the rules, the moderation will be failed, and will go back to WP:ANI, which will probably result in a decision as to who was more disruptive, and in sanctions. So don't have the moderation fail. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:25, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

First Statements by Editors

Bacondrum

The subject is a neologism, a very recent one. The sources used in the past were predominantly primary sources as a result. Myself and others worked to remove undue, biased and primary sources. A lot of the undue material relates to fancruft and tendentious editing, Wikipedia articles should not be an indiscriminate list of what people have said and who has used this neologism. Lukianoff and Haidt's book The Coddling of the American Mind, for example is given undue weight, it is a highly partisan book, an expansion of an article that was pushing a very clear ideological line - it should be used sparingly if at all. We should be aiming for content and references that use non-biased, cautious language not anti-feminist, anti-progressive or pro-feminist or pro-progressive language, this applies to the tone also. I'd gladly see the article expanded in a matter of fact way - using quality secondary sources, preferably academic and a neutral tone. My problem is the recent nature of the subject, there's a tendency towards cruft, recentivism and battleground editing - I think strong, neutral sources are a must and definitely not opinions pieces of which there are thousands that cover this subject, with wildly divergent views and they are often hyperbolic views ie: David Brooks comparing it to Stalinist purges and Maoist re-education camps (Haidt makes comparisons to Stalinism also, which is no better than Hitler hyperbole - This article was literally comparing a neologism to the most extreme horrors of Stalinism and Maoism at one stage, I kid you not). Bacondrum (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Sridc

This article used to have substantially informative content (see the two older revisions) but over the recent months has gotten bulk of its content deleted en masse. I read Talk:Call-out_culture/Archive_1 to try to understand the rationale behind those deletes.

One objection was the use of op-eds; I'm new to Wikipedia so correct me if I'm wrong, but here we don't blindly reject all op-eds. Call-out culture being a social phenomenon (a recent one at that) is going to have several op-eds from major publishers (often reliable sources) discussing it. I think instead of removing them all we should summarize their views in NPOV.

There were other reasons, such as undue & cruft (they come up very often). These rationales don't make any sense to me. My recent inclusion of the social psychologist, Jonathan Haidt, as a reference was reverted several times for such a reason; after involving a neutral third-party, however, we arrived at the consensus to keep; it got reverted once again even after establishing the said consensus (which involved further dispute before reinstating it back). Another example is the removal of the 'In popular culture' section. I added it back yesterday, wherein it was reverted promptly citing prior consensus (not true) and "text book fan cruft and completely undue"; once again, with the help of a neutral third-party (who referred to MOS:CULTURALREFS) we arrived at the consensus to include it back.

So, to summarize:

  • A lot of valuable information from older revisions got deleted to the point the article looks to be a stub.
  • Even new information about the article (such as the highly-relevant inclusion of Jonathan Haidt) faced inordinate resistance.
  • When mediators, or neutral third-parties, arrive to assist in resolving content disputes, the result has so far been a consensus to include.

The last point, in particular, is why I mostly would appreciate having the said mediators/ neutral third-parties in assisting, with me, to improve the article.

Thank you, and I look forward to your help @Robert McClenon:!

- Sridc (talk) 14:10, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Back-and-Forth Discussion

Second statement by moderator

The article is currently locked due to edit-warring that happened immediately before mediation began. I will remind the participants that WP:DRN Rule A states that no one may edit the article while moderated discussion is in effect. This rule will continue to apply to the participants after the lock expires.

Will each of the participants specifically explain what changes they either wanted to make to the article that were reverted, or what changes they reverted from the article, and why? The objective of this discussion is to see whether we can arrive at a compromise for any portions that were to be added or subtracted. Also, as explained below, it may be better to describe opinions as opinions rather than just deleting them.

Since there are widely differing opinions on the call-out culture, presenting those opinions as opinions is a better idea than simply removing them. Non-neutral sources such as op-eds may be reliable statements of what the viewpoints are.

Please provide your statements of what you either added or removed, and why, within 48 hours.

Second statements by editors

Sridc

Robert asked me to explain what changes I "wanted to make to the article that were reverted". The bulk of my changes involved using Jonathan Haidt as a reference in the article. Those changes had gotten reverted multiple times, sometimes even after establishing consensus. After various back and forth, I managed to position them in the article description to the satisfaction of other editors. The other changes on the other hand involved a lack of consensus due to editors unilaterally deciding to revert them; they include:

- Revert of 'In popular culture', however a consensus has since been established in here, so I expect Bacondrum will be self-reverting it as soon as the article comes out edit-protection.

- Revert on the lede, however note that we are discussing a potentially better source for the lede here & here, as David Cunningham's source is a reliable secondary source, and it covers the two groups of viewpoints on this topic (while giving due weight in each group).

- Revert of Obama's statement - I think Obama's public statement on call-out culture is quite notable, and should be mentioned.

- Revert of Quillette's POV - Same as above; Quillette is a notable online magazine, with a Wikipedia entry. I don't see why it cannot be included, if they have made an article on 'cancel culture'.

I must particularly emphasize here that the bulk of the dispute on this article is not about the above reverts specifically (they are minor in comparison), but the dispute is currently to do with the majority of content that got deleted from older revision (this is an example of what the article looked like). Judging from the clear lack of consensus around the deletion of the majority of these content (compare this to this), as evidenced from the discussion in the Talk page archive (here & here), I believe we need to bring these back (but without their downsides, like being a WP:QUOTEFARM). To that end, over the past two days I painstakingly collected various reliable sources covering the wide range of viewpoints on this topic. You can find them in the following Talk page sections:

- Talk:Call-out_culture#New_reliable_source:_David_Cunningham

- Talk:Call-out_culture#New_reliable_source:_Dianna_Anderson

- Talk:Call-out_culture#Adrienne_Matei

- Talk:Call-out_culture#New_reliable_source:_Meghan_Daum

- Talk:Call-out_culture#Comedians_&_cancel_culture

- Talk:Call-out_culture#Effects_of_call-out_culture - This is a list of various academics and experts talking about how the general population (typically the student body) responds to call-out culture.

- Talk:Call-out_culture#Anita_Bright_(calling-in)

- Talk:Call-out_culture#Anna_Richards

As you may notice, Bacondrum has been the only editor so far to provide comments on these sources. I believe we need a diverse pool of editors on this article, especially the neutral editors. My plan is to use these sources to expand upon the article greatly, which should have the effect of bringing back the bulk of encyclopedic content that had gotten lost in the mass deletion (compare this to this) that happened early this year, but while ensuring that the article sticks to Wikipedia policy & guidelines.

I'm curious to know, especially being a new Wikipedian, how exactly you are planning to help mediate this upcoming improvement, @Robert McClenon:?

—SridYO 22:59, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Bacondrum

Mostly it was Haidt's book The Coddling of the American Mind, I objected to its use due to the strident bias in the book. I simply want to make sure the article is neutral. I'm willing to compromise, but it felt to me like a particular view was being pushed. The serious edit warring didn't help, there was no real attempt at compromise. You'll see on the talk page we had been discussing possible changes in good faith and we've even found some better sources that we agree on - I thought we were really working towards something, slowly. Unfortunately Another ANI report has been made that genuinely looks like nothing more than an attempt to shut me out of the debate, so I don't know where we go from here. Bacondrum (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

The titles of the sources that were put forward is very telling:

  • The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting up a Generation for Failure - Greg Lukianoff and Jonathon Haidt
  • The Destructiveness of Call-Out Culture on Campus - Conor Friedersdorf (who?)
  • Problematic: How Toxic Callout Culture Is Destroying Feminism - Dianna Anderson (who?)
  • Academe’s Poisonous Call-Out Culture - Suzanna Danuta Walters (who?)
  • Why I’ve Started to Fear My Fellow Social Justice Activists - Frances Lee (who?)

There's heaps more and most are primary sources, opinion from all comers, fashion editors, unpublished/unknown academics, sports writers, partisan media pundits etc - most with a clear and strong bias. Almost every source provided recently has been written by people who are clearly detractors. All of these sources take stridently biased stances (this is a hyper contentious and partisan subject) - not saying they can't be used, but we should use them cautiously and sparingly. We should be using better sources overall secondary and academic such as the ones below. There are some excellent sources that were put forward that are clearly more neutral in tone and the authors are far more qualified:

  • Hearing Vocation Differently: Meaning, Purpose, and Identity in the Multi-Faith Academy - sociology professor David Cunningham.
  • The Unwanted Labour of Social Media: Women of Colour Call Out Culture As Venture Community Management - Race and Digital Communications Professor Lisa Nakamura
  • Feminism: A Fourth Wave? - Sociologist Dr Ealasaid Munro

I just want a fair, objective and neutral article that is intelligible, when I first read this page it was none of these things. Bacondrum (talk) 06:33, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

One more thing: Re Srids claim that "Quillette is a notable online magazine, with a Wikipedia entry. I don't see why it cannot be included" Quillette has been rightfully depreciated [1] Bacondrum (talk) 06:38, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment by Moderator

I have been asked how I am planning to try to help mediate the improvement of the article. My view is that the article should be expanded by the inclusion of neutrally written descriptions of views of the call-out culture. The list above is a start for possible added sections. For each candidate section, we (the parties with my assistance) will try to wordsmith a neutral version. If agreement cannot be reached on how to wordsmith a neutral version, then the two proposed versions will be alternatives, and a Request for Comments will be used in which the community will reach a rough consensus. There may be multiple candidate sections, so that the RFC may have to be choose between 1A and 1B, choose between 2A and 2B, and so on. I don't know exactly how much time will be necessary before a possibly multi-part RFC is published. I would of course like to have agreement on neutral versions, so that we can avoid the RFC, but I would rather have an RFC than just leave out the disputed sections (which leaves the article more or less where it is now). That is a rough statement of what my mediation plan is. If someone else has any other ideas, I will be glad to consider them, but that is my plan for now.

Also, if anyone has a suggestion for a way to involve more editors by neutrally inviting more editors via a WikiProject, that may help.

Those are my thoughts for now. I am waiting for input from User:Bacondrum and User:Aquillion. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Sounds great to me. Unfortunately Another ANI has been opened. I'm really keen to do this through moderation. I've not instigated any of these ANI reports and I'm willing to work on mediation 100% Bacondrum (talk) 02:38, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I definitely think an RFC is the way to go in the long run; I find it difficult to see the users involved coming completely eye-to-eye at this point, and in a situation like that I think the best way to proceed is to use an RFC to get outside opinions and at least settle the core issues, rather than grinding our gears endlessly over intractable disagreements. --Aquillion (talk) 06:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly. Bacondrum (talk) 11:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment by Srid (re: more editors)

In regards to "a way to involve more editors" may I suggest inviting the top contributors of the article when it used to have substantial content? I will in fact go ahead and ping some, if you do not mind: @DeRossitt:, @FOARP:, @OnBeyondZebrax:, @Psantora:. (If you are a pinged reader reading this, please see my secondary statement above for the editing plan, thanks!)

I do mind, that is canvassing. Make an open request for comment, don't just ping in editors you think will take your side! This makes it very hard to assume good faith. Bacondrum (talk) 02:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
This is not canvassing. These are editors from the Talk page archive who are currently not active participants. —SridYO 02:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
It's canvasing. The proper forum, especially in the context of moderating a content dispute would be to open an RFC. Bacondrum (talk) 05:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm fine with both–either the formerly active users mentioned, or neutral parties from an RFC. —SridYO 13:34, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, but both are not okay: canvassing is not permitted. Robert McClenon Bacondrum (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Status Comment by Moderator

This noticeboard does not handle a case that is also pending in any other forum. Because a thread has been opened at WP:ANI, this case is placed on hold until the WP:ANI dispute is resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I will be updating the ground rules to instruct the participants in a case that filing a report at WP:ANI (or any other conduct forum such as Arbitration Enforcement) will cause the case to be failed. Since there was not such a statement in the rules when the report was filed, this case is on hold rather than failed. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon:So reading the above, there's been canvassing of sympathetic editors and an editor (myself) is being discussed rather than content: "I expect Bacondrum will be self-reverting" and "Bacondrum has been the only editor so far to provide comments on these sources." Canvassing is surely not on, and I thought we were supposed to focus on content only? Bacondrum (talk) 22:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Horn of_Africa#Jebel_Irhoud_in_Morocco_obsession

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Skllagyook on 06:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

A dispute is occurring in the Talk page of the Horn of Africa article involving me an another editor with an issue where we have not been able to reach consensus. The other editor wishes to remove material (in the "Prehistory" section of the page) describing a recent study and statements by the scientists responsible for it suggesting that Homo sapiens arose about 350-269kya from the merging of populations in South and East Africa. I feel that it is relevant to the prehistory of the region, since the Horn of Africa being a large region or East Africa and possibly involved, and also that to mention only the previously known H. sapiens finds (such as Omo and Herto) from ca 200-160kya (mentioned above on that section of the page) and nothing else would be somewhat misleading, when many researchers now believe that the H. Sapiens emerged earlier (than they previously did) based on new evidence. The other editor and I have, in that Talk page section had other (sometimes related) disputes over content, and I have engaged with their points and in some cases made compromises and changes (sometimes reversals) to my previous edits in response (where I could see that they made valid points). I would also like to note that throughout the discussion, they have, in my opinion, continuously (from the beginning to most recently) often displayed uncivil behavior, including what could be described as " ill-considered accusations of impropriety" as the "Wikipedia:civility" page calls it (including making assumptions and accusations regarding my beliefs and personal motivations for editing and accusing me of political agendas and biases (which I do not hold) without evidence, and inflammatory and combative language, and, what seemed to be, a general aggressiveness which I found, and continue to find, confusing. Despite my earlier compromises, in this last case (described above) I do not agree with their preference and they do not seem to see my reasoning.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Horn_of_Africa#Jebel_Irhoud_in_Morocco_obsession

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I hope that it will be helpful for another party to weigh in on the issue and give an opinion of the merits of our respective positions, since the other user (Dalhoa) does not seem to be receptive to my reasoning and believes I am biased in some way.

Summary of dispute by Skllagyook and Dalhoa

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Horn of_Africa#Jebel_Irhoud_in_Morocco_obsession discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - I have corrected the listing of the two users involved in this controversy, which has been discussed at length on the article talk page. Please list each user on a separate line. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Question - Does the filing party want to withdraw this dispute because it has been taken care of? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I did want to withdraw it because I had decided to agree to the other editor's preferred edit and thus believed the dispute was over. Afterword however, they began to dispute another issue, and I did/do not agree with their position regarding it. I have tried to explain my case multiple times, and the other party (the user Dalhoa) seems to be refusing to listen (and prone to misconstruing my statements, whether willfully or not I do not know) and replies with confusing hostility and incivility. The situation seems to me to be getting increasingly worse and the other user more uncivil, and I thought that at this point a more appropriate place to seek intervention might be Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, and I have recently filed a report there. Skllagyook (talk) 03:30, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Goddard Gunster

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by 66.208.15.194 on 17:51, 20 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There have been various inaccurate accusations and false information being circulated regarding the company's history and business. The lies being shared are destroying the company's accredited reputation and valid work.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

We have maintained and orchestrated an authentic page, until it was smeared in May 2019. We want it to be immediately restored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Goddard_Gunster&action=history

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

We want to see the page restored to how it appeared previous of May 2019 and three unauthorized editors to be banned from making further page edits.

Summary of dispute by Rich Farmbrough

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Summary of dispute by Dimondbaklove

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Summary of dispute by The Vintage Feminist

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Summary of dispute by

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Goddard Gunster discussion

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Boyfriend loophole

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Kphawkins on 19:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I recently revised the header and background section of the article Boyfriend loophole, a rhetorical political term used to convey a policy position. These sections were heavily biased and obfuscated the central political conflict, so I added NPOV language to clarify what law was on the books and what legislation was being proposed.

I also added a line in the header which provided reasoning for opposing viewpoints, which is extremely notable in context, since the preceding sentence notes that legislation in support of closing the boyfriend loophole has not passed at the federal level. The removal of this line is the center of the dispute.

The stated reasoning of removing the line is that the source I used, The Daily Caller, was deprecated. The article is reporting on the positions of Senator Joni Ernst, conveyed directly to this news outlet, on why a recent bill failed to pass due to the inclusion of boyfriend loophole-closing legislation in the bill passed by the House. Her words to the Daily Caller speak directly to the positions of "critics", so it's perfectly natural source to use. Even if the Daily Caller shows bias in reporting, its bias would be in favor of the critics, if anything, so the publication would be a good source for representing the viewpoints of the right on a partisan topic.

I have welcomed the replacement of this source with another source which supports the same line. Obviously, there are critics of this legislation or the House bill would have passed the senate. Only someone being disingenuous would argue that this line isn't truthful.

Instead of changing the citation, I have been met with an edit warring campaign to remove the entire line. Removing the line turns the header from one that fairly represents both sides into one which only supports closing the loophole. Again, idea that it is a "loophole" only exists if you think it shouldn't exist, so simply explaining what it is is representing their position.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[2] [3]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Urge users to read WP:DEPRECATED, particularly the lines "Citations to deprecated sources should not be removed indiscriminately, and each case should be reviewed separately" and "Deprecation is not a "ban" on using the source". The way this rule is currently being applied is akin to a ban.

Again, I'm not opposed to a resolution where the people who take issue with my source add other sources or even replace my source with one which represents the views of critics.

Summary of dispute by David Gerard

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The user insists on edit-warring in a deprecated source. He claims I have welcomed the replacement of this source with another source which supports the same line - I have asked repeatedly for a Reliable Source that includes the claim. If there isn't one, we really don't have a source for it. I have also suggested that if he really wants the Daily Caller accepted as a source in Wikipedia, the next step is to bring it up for discussion at WP:RSN, and convince others that it's good now - though I don't like his chances. This is a WP:1AM with added WP:IDHT - David Gerard (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Jayron32

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This is a clear case of WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:IDHT. Everyone noted above save the original two disputants was uninvolved, and gave uninvolved statements at RSN. The response was a clear consensus that his proposed source was not reliable, and now he's running here seeking a different result. I urge someone to close this discussion and keep the discussion in one location, which should remain at RSN. --Jayron32 00:08, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by JzG

This appears to be a case of WP:1AM. The Daily Caller is a deprecated and thus unreliable source, the proposed use does not qualify under WP:ABOUTSELF, and that's an end to it as far as I am concerned. Also Blueboar alludes to a common issue with deprecated sources: a fact that is significant will have more than one reliable source. A fact that is covered in only one unreliable source is, almost by definition, not significant. Guy (help!) 23:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Newslinger

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Summary of dispute by Aquillion

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Summary of dispute by Blueboar

Don’t think I am very involved, although I did comment at the thread posted to RSN. My take was this: the entire issue was really a question of UNDUE weight. If the content (an opinion) in question was important enough to mention, we would have lots of sources discussing it. Since we apparently don’t have lots of sources discussing it (and have only one source mentioning it) the opinion in question isn’t worth including... regardless of the issue of reliability. Blueboar (talk) 22:04, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Boyfriend loophole discussion

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vedanta#History

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by 73.41.96.65 on 23:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Swaminarayan wrote one book "Shikshapatri" in his lifetime. In that book Swaminarayan wrote Verse-121, wherein he clearly states that he follows Vendanta philosophy of type "Vishishtadvaita".

Please refer Swaminarayan original book digital version at BRITISH LIBRARY: www.shikshapatri.org.uk/~imagedb/hms/mss_browse.php?expand=638,639&act=chunit&unit=121

Swaminarayan own handwriting is discarded and fake people are adding newer philosophy themselves, without any reference of swaminarayan writing.


How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[4]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?


As Swaminarayan stated, that he follows Vendanta philosophy of type "Vishishtadvaita". So that needs to be honored. Reference: Swaminarayan handwritten book www.shikshapatri.org.uk/~imagedb/hms/mss_browse.php?expand=638,639&act=chunit&unit=121


Summary of dispute by Apollo1203

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Vedanta#History discussion

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proclamation of Indonesian Independence

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by BabiBandung on 13:39, 21 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute is about the official (de jure) recognition of Indonesia. All the sources show 1949, but only two sources show 1945, namely Indonesia itself (State propaganda) and Egypt. Person (Indonesian) only wants to use Arab and Indonesian sources due the fact 9opinion) that Allied sources are not reliable. Als the original newspapers i have attached are not reliable because The Egypy internet page and an Inodneisan article in a magazine have different view. Also the claim that The Indonesian proclamation gained internatiol attention is not supported by real sources due the fact no internationla newspaper did cover the proclamation two days after the End of WWII, all newspapers talk about the capitulation of Japan and Europe. The fact that the Dutch EAst Indies were exept Java and Sumtra liberated by the Allies (1942-1945) is not relevant to the editors opinion. Als the constant use of the name Indonesia for the colony and the constant use of Djakarta is not neutral and incorrect. The Name Djakarta ceame after indeopendence in 1949, it was still called Batavia in 1945. Person tries to rewrite history in according to Indonesian school history like. 1945 independent. Invasion by Dutch in 1946. War won and Dutch drivin out in 1949. Diplomatic efforts are not mentioned. The whole article is now a propaganda peace based on Indonesian view, not International view. The reason for this is the claim of Indonesia to push the internatiol community to accept 1945 as independence date, so the US, UK Australia and the Netherlands would have to aplogize to Indonesia for the invasion of 1944/1945. (General MacArthur landed on New Guinea in 1944 and the Americans/Australians left in 1945/1946 after tghe proclamation of independence.) If i ask real documents about recognition or more sources i have to 'back off' or my sources (Newspapers United Nations sources) are not relialble. Als the mention of the Arab League which isn't a country is disputed in International law.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Proclamation_of_Indonesian_Independence

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

To look neutral at all the sources provided and maybe let someone outside us two editors write the article based on the provided sources.

Regards

Summary of dispute by Bluesatellite

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Proclamation of Indonesian Independence discussion

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  • Volunteer Note - The filing party has not notified the other party. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:57, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - Obvious civility problems. From filer: "I'm not a Dutch citizen, but you are an Indonesian citizen oblviously whos is indoctrinated by Stata propoganda." "Wikipedia is not the place to write Indonesian school propaganda like the Indonesians want the history to be." "Grow up an learn to do historical reasearch." From other party: "No honey, don't twist the problem.", "On the other hand, YOU (a Dutch citizen oblviously)". I have no reason to believe that a good faith discussion will happen here. Xavexgoem (talk) 23:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Also, an RFAR was created for this dispute, which is... extreme, to say the least. It was rejected before this case was made. I'm very much leaning towards closing this. Xavexgoem (talk) 23:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
    • If the other party is notified and we can maintain a civil atmosphere, I'm more than willing to take this on. Xavexgoem (talk) 01:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

British Rail Class 390

– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Filed by DrFrench on 12:08, 21 November 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a difference of opinion about the formatting of dates in citation templates.

I noticed that many of the citations on the page were messy and/or incomplete. They used a mixture of templates, free text and bare links - some of them using the incorrect template. To improve the article, I went through all the citations and updated/expanded/corrected them using the current citation syntax and adding extra information.

In the citation templates, I used the YYYY-MM-DD format. The page has the {{use dmy dates}} template at the top of the page, so all dates in the citation templates will automatically display in the correct dmy format. I felt this complies with the requirements of WP:MOS, MOS:DATEFORMAT and WP:CITESTYLE.

See Talk:British_Rail_Class_390#Citation_formatting for a full rationale/explanation.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Unfortunately, there has been little engagement on the article's talk page.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

As neutral observers, you may be able to give an informed and unbiased opinion. Or you may be able to direct me to a more suitable place to resolve the dispute, being as it the dispute isn't about the content of the page per se, simply about the technical formatting of templates used on the page.

Summary of dispute by Davey2010

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  • Prior to DFs edits the majority of dates were in DMY format, I see no valid reason to change a section (or all) of an article to YYYY-MM-DD, It's also worth noting exterior-wise there's no difference between DFs edits and mine (ie they still show in DMY format) however internally they IMHO should remain in DMY format and not in YYYY-MM-DD, Thanks. –Davey2010Talk 14:03, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Pinging DrFrench to make them aware of Xavexgoems compromise. –Davey2010Talk 19:47, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
  • So DrFrench do you agree to the compromise below ?...... Speak or forever hold your peace. (If you make no reply it will be assumed you will agree to said compromise and essentially the case will be closed.). –Davey2010Talk 21:21, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
  • He may be busy; it did take us a while to take the case. And anyone can agree to a compromise and then see error in it later. But the case will be closed if he does not reply, yes. Xavexgoem (talk) 00:14, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Ah I wasn't aware of that my apologies Xavexgoem, Unfortunately I've had it so many times where people kick up a fuss, go to the talkpage or RFC and then after a while completely ignore the discussion meaning nothing's resolved so didn't want that happening again that's all but yeah my apologies. –Davey2010Talk 09:34, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Cassianto

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  • Per Davey2010, plus the "YYYY/MM/DD" format is AmEng. This is a British article. CassiantoTalk 17:06, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

British Rail Class 390 discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
In regards to resolving this dispute (which is why we're all here) you have WP:30 or failing that an WP:RFC to resolve this, I fail to see what DRN can do, It's also worth noting Redrose tried getting to the core issue at Talk:British Rail Class 390 so given her help and DRN hasn't worked IMHO I see no other alternative other than RFC. –Davey2010Talk 00:49, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Noted. Closing. Xavexgoem (talk) 01:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Law enforcement_in_New_York

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by B719603 on 02:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

My citations are being removed and my edits are being replaced with information that is misleading.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

I have tried asking the user to stop taking down my citations and edits. This did not work.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I don't know if you will be able to help; If you can, that would be great. If not, then I will just continue re-posting my citations and edits to the page.

Summary of dispute by 2604:2000:1280:a126:bc11:6f05:1de2:a536

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Law enforcement_in_New_York discussion

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Cow vigilante violence in India

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Guglusharma on 22:54, 22 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I have cited news regarding mob violence and have described the incidence in my own words, still users are undoing my complete edits without even going through the articles. As I understand, Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting, so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text. Isn't it?

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cow_vigilante_violence_in_India&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MPS1992

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

By guiding me how my edits constituted copyright violation?

Summary of dispute by MPS1992

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I do not understand how the filing party is not seated backwards upon an ass.

Summary of dispute by El C

I just removed and revdeleted copyvio by the OP. Otherwise, I decline to participate. El_C 02:46, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by

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Cow vigilante violence in India discussion

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Cushitic peoples

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Skllagyook on 13:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Another editor, Kndnm64 continues to add a section to the Cushitic peoples page, on the morphological affinities of the people of the ancient Kerma culture of Sudan which find them to be similar to some peoples that speak Afro-Asiatic languages. The Kerma peoples are not agreed to have been Cushitic (one study suggested they were but more recent research suggests that they instead spoke a language of the Nilo-Saharan family). I have disputed the relevance of the other editor's additions to that page, since the page is about Cushitic peoples. I have argued that their addition in that context seems to constitute original research (to imply something that is not stated - i.e. to suggest that the Kerma people were Cushitic, which the other editor claimed their additions were evidence of), or at least that they are not sufficiently relevant to the topic of the page). The other editor does not agree with me. We have discussed it but cannot come to an agreement. They seem, in my view, not to be listening (but I hope that a third party can bring a neutral perspective to the situation).

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cushitic_peoples#kermens_samples_were_closer_to_horn_african_ethiopian_samples_other_then_samples_from_the_sudan_region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cushitic_peoples#Skllagyook_keeps_deleting_sources

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I hope that a third party can help resolve this dispute, and help to evaluate the merits of our respective cases with a neutral perspective.

Summary of dispute by Kndnm64

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Cushitic peoples discussion

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  • Volunteer Note - The filing party has not notified the other editor on their talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:57, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I did notify the other editor on their talk page. However, they (the other editor) apparently deleted my notification. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kndnm64&action=history
Also, I now notice that the other editor was recently blocked as a/for being a sockpuppet - see next link below - (so seemingly dispute resolution between them and myself would no longer be necessary). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kndnm64

Skllagyook (talk) 23:05, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Joe Sanchez

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by 72.189.255.25 on 21:24, 3 December 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

1. Joe Sanchez, only served eights months to one year in NY state prison. It can be confirmed by calling NYS Dept. of Corrections in Albany, NY. 2. Joe Sanchez was NOT attack by convicts he put in prison through an arrest when he was a New York City Police Officer. It can be confirmed by calling NYS Dept. of Corrections in Albany, NY. 3. Joe Sanchez, NEVER retired from NYS Corrections. After Eight months or one year of service he was hurt during an isolated fight in the prison yard and NEVER received ANY disability or retirement from NYS. His statement in Wikipedia is, they were out to get him because he used to be an NYPD cop, that's far beyond from the truth. 4. Joe Sanchez, only made into Wikipedia was because a buddy of his who served in Vietnam happened to be a writer for Wikipedia and told him, "Lets keep this to ourselves. But Joe, you must make more videos and public announcements to make it look right." "The more public you make your story the more chances of staying in Wikipedia you'll have, but I never told you." 5. After twenty nine years, when all of the NYS prosecutors, attorneys and witnesses passed on he stated to me, "Now is a god time to live a legacy."

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Nothing I can do, I'm not a Vietnam veteran

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Drop the entire Wikipedia lie concern Joe Sanchez, or I will not only go public, but put a dent in Wikipedia for allowing lies like this to be made, not only public, but historical.

Summary of dispute by Wikipedia Writer

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Joe Sanchez discussion

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of Steven Universe episodes

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Ajd on 00:32, 27 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Should the forthcoming limited series Steven Universe Future be listed under the heading "Specials"? One editor argues that, as it is a series with multiple episodes and a regular weekly airtime, it is by definition not a special; another editor cites articles describing it as "a special limited series" or characterizing the forthcoming debut episodes as a "special event".

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:List of Steven Universe episodes#Listing Steven Universe Future

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Provide a third-party perspective on whether it makes sense to describe Steven Universe Future as a "special" and/or to list its episodes under the heading "specials"; it's been going back and fourth between two disputants with no progress for days.

Summary of dispute by Alex 21

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List of Steven Universe episodes discussion

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  • Volunteer Note - The filing party has not notified the other editor on their talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opinion polling for the next Spanish general election

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
Closed discussion
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Filed by BrugesFR on 20:42, 1 December 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

LaSexta channel published a polls, a user wants to link "LaSexta" with its corresponding article ([[]]), but another user don't let him do it, they do not reach an agreement

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Please help us to solve this

Summary of dispute by User:BrugesFR

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Summary of dispute by User:Impru20

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There is little to discuss here. I initially contested BrugesFR's edits because these deviated from established precedent in other opinion polling articles throughout Wikipedia not to use lonely wiki-links in opinion polling tables, as it could cause a stark contrast in long tables between linked and unlinked text. However, later assurances that the true motives for the edit were due to a wish from BrugesFR to somehow pin-point the "political alignment" of the media commissioning the poll—attempting to establish or imply a connection between the opinion poll's accuracy and the reference in the media's article in Wikipedia signaling that The political alignment of its news and debate programs is left-wing—really brought serious concerns to me about WP:NPOV and WP:TE. Basically, this seems like an attempt from the user to hint that the accuracy of some specific opinion polls (in this case, those conducted by Invymark and published by laSexta) is undermined out of ideological reasons, which, aside from introducing a very self-evident ideological POV into the article, it is outright and unacceptable synthesis. An opinion polling article is not the relevant place to work out such conclusions, neither directly nor indirectly. Impru20talk 01:10, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Opinion polling for the next Spanish general election discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Volunteer comment The filing editor has not notified the other editor of this discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 04:59, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

  • BrugesFR response -I've now notified the other editors using the DRN-notice template. My apologies for that.--BrugesFR (talk) 00:45, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Having read the discussion on the talk page and the comments here, I think that the issue of political motivations is a tangent of minimal relevance. The central issue is whether or not including a wikilink to the article of a poll commissioner is due. Impru20 does appear to be correct that there is at least an implicit consensus to not include links to poll commissioners in polling articles for Spanish elections (see Category:Opinion polling for Spanish general elections for a list of articles to peruse). If BrugesFR has any other arguments to make that they feel haven't been properly considered, there is a possibility that the DRN process may be of some use. signed, Rosguill talk 02:21, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
    • @Rosguill: Thanks. If he had told me that at the beginning and had known that I would not have discussed it. What bothers me is that this user wants to prevent people from editing in the wikipedia because a user is political, since almost everyone writes, thinks, speaks or votes influenced in some way by their political, religious, gender or social ideas, their origin or their education on certain topics, and all that becomes political, it is something almost inalienable in the human being and the wikipedia its mission is to inform widely with verifiability, not based on left or right. Please some user explain that to that user. and thanks for the message I will no add that wikilink in that article.I write from my cell phone right now I can't sign, bye.@Impru20:.
      • If he had told me that at the beginning and had known that I would not have discussed it I did told you from the beginning, actually: [5] [6] But you were never willing to hear. Now, should I remind you that this noticeboard states, at the very top of the page, that This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors? I am rather ashamed to see you bringing the issue here, then complaining that I should have told you something I did actually told you and going into a rant full of personal considerations on myself, which you have also been doing at the talk page once you saw you were not right at this issue. Maybe if you had read what I told you from the beginning you would have saved us a lot of time and effort. I don't think there is anything else to discuss in this dispute except this user possibly attacking me further, so please a volunteer close it since the content issue seems to be solved. Thanks. Impru20talk 09:24, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stephen McAllister_(lawyer)

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Peacekeeper400 on 21:35, 29 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There appears to be an ongoing (and irreconcilable) dispute between Marquardtika and a number of other users. The former would not have the Wiki page reference anything negative that has been substantially reported by national media outlets as pertaining to the subject of the page. His Wiki page mirrors what is listed on the subject's official bio page at DOJ and KU. Other users seem to seek something more balanced presented to the public; but Marquardtika objects with what appears to be Wiki-speak. By Marquardtika constantly responding in Wiki-speak, he is really making Wikipedia a platform not for the general public to contribute in a constructive way to shared knowledge; but for people like Marquardtika who have nothing better to do than learn/speak "Wiki-speak" to lord it over the general public and publish only that what HE thinks out to be displayed. I agree with one user who calls it a form of censorship. This subject of this page is clearly a person of great controversy; and being a public figure, he public has a right to know the various controversies that surround him. It is not for this page to come down on any one side in any of the controversies, but it is disingenuous to present a page devoid of any of the numerous public and publicized scandals surrounding a political appointee.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

curprev 18:49, 14 November 2019‎ Marquardtika talk contribs‎ 4,408 bytes -4,221‎ Reverted 1 edit by 63.232.78.66 (talk) (TW) undothank Tag: Undo curprev 16:43, 14 November 2019‎ 63.232.78.66 talk‎ 8,629 bytes +4,221‎ Undid revision 924718819 by 1990'sguy (talk) undo Tags: Undo possible BLP issue or vandalism curprev 14:48, 5 November 2019‎ 1990'sguy talk contribs‎ 4,408 bytes -4,221‎ Undid revision 924716315 by 172.13.15.160 (talk) Revert content in violation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. IP's la

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Marquardtika versus other users (some anonymous) regarding subject of page, Stephen McAllister (lawyer). Marquardtika uses "Wiki-speak" to keep what appear to be new users to Wikipedia from altering or adding to a page that he (Marquardtika) created or substantially edited. One or more individuals should weigh in, as no user appears to be willing to give an inch. The question is whether the page of a public figure (Trump political appointee) should present information of public concern.

Summary of dispute by Marquardtika

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Summary of dispute by 172.13.15.160

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Summary of dispute by Favonian

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Summary of dispute by DumbBOT

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Stephen McAllister_(lawyer) discussion

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Massimo Introvigne

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Closed discussion
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Filed by Aidayoung on 05:56, 6 December 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

This is a disputed article, where recently quotes from a book by Professor W. Michael Ashcraft (the main academic history of the scholarly studies of new recent movements) were included discussing the subject of the article. They were repeatedly cancelled although they are obviously relevant to the subject and coming from a RS.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Massimo_Introvigne

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Massimo_Introvigne_and_CESNUR

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

You should establish whether book by Prof Ashcraft is RS for the subject and quotes there should not be eliminated. Note that I have not deleted more negative evaluations of the same subject, thus leaving a spectrum of different opinions

Summary of dispute by Grayfell

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Massimo Introvigne discussion

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2019 United Kingdom general election

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Munci on 18:11, 28 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

We are discussing how to describe the campaign, most notably a paragraph about Conservative internet campaigns. I consider it most important to mention what independent observers, such as Twitter, FullFact and the Electoral Commission, have said but others are not convinced.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[[7]]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Give other opinions on the issue and other possible solutions.

Summary of dispute by Bondegezou

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Summary of dispute by DeFacto

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Summary of dispute by Jopal22

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2019 United Kingdom general election discussion

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  • Volunteer Note - The filing party has not notified the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jo Swinson

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by This is Paul on 15:18, 3 December 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute is over whether Jo Swinson should be described as Scottish or British. The status quo currently appears to refer to her as Scottish, and a Guardian article currently used as a reference in the infobox also uses this term, describing her as "Scottish MP Jo Swinson" [8]. The term Scottish is disputed by User:Erzan.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

By asking Erzan to provide a reference to support the change they wish to make. [9]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

The dispute needs somebody with experience to give some advice on a solution for this. The issue of nationality within the United Kingdom and its constituent countries is an often visited subject here on Wikipedia.

Summary of dispute by This is Paul

The use of the term Scottish has been the status quo in the article. I have no objection to the changes in principle, but feel it should be referenced in this case because how to describe nationality within the UK has caused some controversy in the past. Because of that past controversy I don't believe WP:BLUESKY can be applied here since it cannot resolve the wider UK nationality dispute. I've always tended to think we should stay with the status quo, whatever that may be, unless there's a good reason to change it. I have asked Erzan to provide references for the changes they wish to make since I feel that would help with any potential future dispute. These were provided, but promptly removed by Ivar the Boneful. Therefore I feel a dispute resolution would be of help in this situation.

Summary of dispute by Erzan

Jo is a British MP, a leader of the British Liberal Democrats and has stated several times she wants to be British Prime Minister. In addition to this, she is a pro-Union and opposes Scottish Nationalism.

This edit, by myself, was made to reflect this very basic fact and reflect the reality that Jo is a British politician who wants to be a British Prime Minister.

This was revereted and twice personal abuse was directed.

I was asked to provide references. I did. Another user edited this and cited 'skyblue'. Which I agreed with. Jo being a British politician is basic information and objectively obvious.

My appeal to other users logic was ignored by Paul. I feel this attitude creates a culture of intimidation and is extremely negative for users to want to contribute to Wikipedia.

Summary of dispute by Ivar the Boneful

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Jo Swinson discussion

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  • Volunteer Note - The filing party has not yet notified the other editors of this filing. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

White Helmets (Syrian Civil War)

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Harshmustard on 03:58, 26 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

It is my belief - and that of several others - that the article, particularly the lede, is not handled neutrally. I have made efforts to word things more neutrally, and have opened several discussions on this matter over a period of time. From this early stage (and in prior edit summaries), I have tried to make it clear what the problems were, and invited discussion on the Talk page.

This issue has also been raised by other users on the Talk page - older comments have now been archived. The article always seems to be reverted back to the non-neutral version, with no discussions taking place that I can see.

Part of the problem is the use of sources that do not prove what they are being used to prove.

But what really concerns me, is the approach of objectively describing the existence of criticism is labelled "fringe", whereas the current version (dismissing the criticism outright as disinformation) makes a value judgment and asserts partiality on behalf of Wikipedia.

I'm sure this can be resolved in a way that pleases everybody - however, at the moment it seems there is no hope of this.

I made one change earlier (my first in 2 weeks), to a wording that has existed for some time since back in Spring. I justified this on the Talk page, and got a warning for engaging in an edit war.

(How can I appeal this? One edit is not a war)

Previous comments on the Talk page in fact misrepresented the issue. In particular, they said a single statement added for balance was false; when it is true, sourced, and expanded upon later in the article. I did not receive a reponse to the justification I put on the Talk page, but got the aforementioned warning instead.

(Sorry, this is my first time doing this, so would appreciate it you could offer me some guidance along the way - both in progressing this dispute, and appealing the warning).

Thanks

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[[10]]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Help find a wording that acknowledges legitimate criticism without asserting bias in describing it.

Help me appeal my warning for edit warring when I made a single, justified edit!

Summary of dispute by Snooganssnoogans

This is very simple: reliable sources note that the White Helmets are the target of a sustained disinformation campaign, including countless conspiracy theories and falsehoods about the organization. This content dispute is about whether we should (i) prevent Wikipedia from relying on reliable sources and instead (ii) promote the disinformation campaign about the group by cobbling together a mixture of misrepresented RS and non-RS to lend credence to the disinformation. The other editor keeps edit-warring text about how "independent and unaffiliated British fact-finding delegations" have criticized the White Helmets when it was a single British pro-Assad priest who did it. The other editor also keeps removing the RS text about the conspiracy theories and falsehoods that have been thrown at the group.

This is also note a dispute between me and this editor. Other editors who have reverted the FRINGE version of the text (or expressed opposition to the FRINGE version of the text on the talk page) include Bobfrombrockley and Neutrality. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:19, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Comment in your own section. Keep comments to a minimum until there is a moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:02, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
You keep repeating that it is one priest, but it is not. The group includes other clergy and peers. And they're not pro-Assad, but have criticised both sides.
I already replied to this effect on the Talk page, and it is even in the WP article. "Independent and unaffiliated" is a perfectly reasonable way to describe them.
(I have edited this page twice in the last 6 months; hardly a war).
The problem is, these "Reliable sources" say it is a disinformation campaign, but basically only back this up by saying negative articles get most coverage in Russian media. Few actually address the meat of the criticism. For Russia and the West to have different views is natural, but we shouldn't be so dismissive so as to ignore all criticism outright.
You do not have to promote a disinformation campaign; earlier versions happily said there was criticism, who was making it, and countered that various other sources had thought it was disinformation.
In my opinion, to assert that anyone else investigating this who doesn't reach the same conclusion is a stooge is a really harmful approach. Harshmustard (talk) 05:52, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

White Helmets (Syrian Civil War) discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

White Helmets First statement by moderator

User:Harshmustard, User:Snooganssnoogans: I will make a preliminary effort at moderating this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A and follow the rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. My first question is whether this is a content dispute, because this noticeboard handles content disputes. It does not handle conduct disputes. If the issue is how to reflect the disinformation campaign in the article, that is content, as long as no editor is accusing any other editor of disinformation. Since the topic is the Syrian Civil War, General Sanctions are available for use against disruptive editing. So be civil and collaborative. Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they either think should be changed in the article, and why, or what should be left the same in the article, and why? Don't talk about other editors. The issue is improving the article.

Do not reply to each other, except in the section for back-and-forth discussion, which can be ignored. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:05, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

White Helmets First statements by editors

The article's lead should say: "The organisation has been the target of a sustained disinformation campaign by supporters of President Bashar al-Assad of Syria and Russian-sponsored media organisations such as RT; the campaign has promoted conspiracy theories about the group, and false accusations that it has close ties with terrorist activities." This version reflects RS and is neutral. The article's lead should not say: "The organisation has been criticised by supporters of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Russian-sponsored media organisations such as RT, along with independent and unaffiliated British fact-finding delegations. Arguments centre on them receiving support from the US government’s Agency for International Development and a British PR firm, leading to charges that the SCD are a Western-backed propaganda tool. Other arguments draw attention to the SCD's alleged ties to militant groups. The United Nations has held a round table discussion on its organ and other valuables theft actions on Dec 20, 2018." This version is cobbled together through a misrepresentation of a few RS and a bunch of non-RS, and blatantly fails WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV by giving credence to conspiracy theories and falsehoods. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:19, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

User:Snooganssnoogans has responded constructively with proposed wording for the lede. The other editor has not responded in more than 48 hours, and probably is not planning to participate (and participation is voluntary). There is now a rough consensus (one-to-zero, without objection by the neutral moderator) for the proposed version. I am lifting the rule against editing the article, but it doesn't appear that the article needs editing, because the version proposed by Snoogans appears to be consistent with the existing text. Discussion may resume on the article talk page. If there is objection to the version offered here, any other editor may discuss on the talk page, or may use a Request for Comments. I will be closing this case as a general close (neither a success nor a failure) in about 24 hours. Closing statements by the editors are permitted but not required. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:04, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

White Helmets Back-and-forth discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chaim Shacham

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by רדיומן on 09:01, 4 December 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Twice, sourced information (source) was deleted, and I restored it. רדיומן (talk) 09:01, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Chaim Shacham

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Say what you think about it.

Summary of dispute by Catchingthewind

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Chaim Shacham discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Feminazi

– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Sridc on 16:47, 30 November 2019 (UTC).
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The neutrality of this article is currently being disputed. I improved the article with several academic sources to fix the neutrality issue[11]. However User:Sangdeboeuf disputes most of those changes (after having reverted them).

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Discussions about neutrality begin from here: Talk:Feminazi#Lede (and later sections)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Most of the content and sources I added in [12] were reverted. We would like you to help us in coming to consensus with each of them, to the point that the POV tag can be removed from the article.

Summary of dispute by Sangdeboeuf

This DRN is premature, having been opened less than 24 hours after talk page discussion began, and on the weekend after a major U.S. holiday to boot. In my opinion Sridc should be more patient, explain their desired changes on the talk page (per WP:BRD), and allow time for other users to weigh in on any proposed changes. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:13, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

StrayBolt has also disputed one of Sridcs' sources.[13] I've added them to the list of involved users, just to be thorough. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:41, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Clarification by Sridc

The primary reason for my opening a DRN here is that I reached an impasse in discussion with Sangdeboeuf. As I remarked in the Talk I observed further back and forths among us going nowhere. Hence, a mediator would be most helpful here. —Srid🍁 22:55, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Adding Bacondrum since they have arrived on scene lately to edit (many of those reverts of my edits) the article. —Srid🍁 23:43, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Bacondrum just got added in

I've merely been added as a means to stop me editing. There's only one person contesting the content and its neutrality...Sridc. End of story. Surprised he hasn't taken it to ANI. Bacondrum (talk) 23:47, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

I believe the DRN requires any active editor who is part of the dispute to be present. If that is an incorrect assumption, feel free to remove yourself. —Srid🍁 00:06, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Feminazi discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - Some but not all of the editors have been notified. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:49, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
    • Srid response - I've now notified the other editors using the DRN-notice template. Apologies for overlooking it. —Srid🍁 02:59, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand the point of this thread, there's not a debate, it's just Sridc refusing to accept that his edits didn't cut the mustard. All other involved editors have disagreed with his recent contributions (which again appear to be pushing an anti-feminist/Libertarian POV) This thread was started as a way to force his edits through after there appeared to be a consensus building against his edits on the talk page (at least three editors objected on similar grounds). I strongly believe the pattern of editing from this editor is disruptive. He has accused others of "I suspect User:Sangdeboeuf is POV editing", "So here's a list of problematic reverts that clearly indicates we have a WP:POVFIGHTER" and "Bacondrum You are WP:HOUNDING me around Wikipedia", added a neutrality tag to the page when there's no evidence of bias either way (trying to game the debate?), and he has been edit warring. Why do we need dispute resolution? Because he simply must make the edits he wants? I for one have had enough of these personal attacks, attempts at gaming the process, spurious ANI reports and spurious dispute resolutions. Bacondrum (talk) 03:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

  • Volunteer Note - Is this a one-against-many dispute? If so, it is not likely that discussion here will result in a change in consensus. If this is a one-against-many dispute, the one editor can either accept that they are in a minority, or use a Request for Comments to obtain a larger consensus that might be different. Participation at DRN is voluntary, and sometimes the "many" editors in a one-against-many dispute decline to participate. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:47, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it's a one against many dispute. I'm declining participation at this point. Bacondrum (talk) 01:05, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
That about sums it up. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:42, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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