- File:TheWire28.jpg (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)
File was hastily deleted after two votes (one for a speedy keep, one for a deletion). For context, each article for each episode of The Wire has had a still image from the episode to serve as an episode identification. The non-free images that have been used on those articles have been there and stayed here for over 15 years. The claim that the images could have been from any other episode and therefore fails NFCC#8 is false. I am retrieving these images from IMDB - they are often official set photos created by the cast, from that specific episode.
Another editor said this in the discussion:
- "The claim that the image "serves to identify the episode" makes no sense: I watched all of the episodes of "The Wire", but the picture that I have just described is not in any way specific enough to bring back the particular episode in question: it could easily have come from any one of many episodes, even if one regards identifying the particular episode as "significantly [increasing] readers' understanding of the article topic" and believes that failure to do so "would be detrimental to that understanding", which is highly dubious anyway."
If I take an official set image from a specific episode and I add it to the article of that episode, then the image is meeting NFCC#8. It by definition has contextual significance because it is literally demonstrating what occurred in the episode. It is a direct representation of WHAT OCCURRED in the episode and therefore serves a PURPOSE in the article. The image that was deleted was literally from that episode - just because you happen not to remember it was from that episode doesn't mean it wasn't from that episode. I already addressed the claim that it could have come from many episodes. I'm retrieving it from the IMDB entry for each episode.
I find it confusing that some editor from 2006 had the same idea I did and wasn't immediately stalked and watchlisted to have all their files marked for deletion. In fact, this file was not originally uploaded by me, it was uploaded by that editor.
Part of the reason why the @Whpq: doesn't think the file meets NFCC is simply because the article isn't written as well as articles of episodes of Breaking Bad are. For example, almost every episode of Breaking Bad goes into depth about reception, whereas episodes of The Wire haven't been contributed to in months/years. This is why he was unable to get the images I uploaded to the Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul articles removed.
I want to end off by circling back to NFCC#8 with an example from Final Grades, the final episode of Season 4 of The Wire. The current non-free image being used there is a picture of a major character in an iconic death scene, which is mentioned under the "Stanfield Organization", "McNulty", and "Critical response" section of the article. And yet, Whpq tagged the image. Even outside of this, viewers who have watched The Wire would immediately recognize that the scene would be from season 4's finale, which would definitely increase the reader's understanding of the article. LJF2019 talk 21:04, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse Based on the discussion, that appears to be a textbook NFCC#8. The image needs to provide added context, which appears not to be the case here. The rationale for NFCC is that we need to minimise the amount of non-free content on the site, which is long-standing. I haven't seen the other images described here, but it's very possible, though not certain, they also fail NPCC as well. SportingFlyer T·C 22:04, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Speedy overturn and relist. Yet again, an FFD closure pretends that WP:NFCC#8 was a simple and objective criterion that the article fails. This is a perennial problem with FFD, which is unreflective of the community. The fact is that an ideological split exists on Wikipedia between the free content maximalists and the write-an-encyclopaedia-in-any-lawful-manner types, and FFD is mainly of interest to free content maximalists.NFCC#8 is a horrible fudge, and it isn't possible to interpret it in an objective manner. It says that
Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding , the problem being that some people are more visual than others, and therefore something that doesn't increase your understanding of an article topic might very well increase mine. I put it to you that NFCC#8 is inherently subjective and can only be evaluated by community consensus. It cannot possibly be evaluated by an individual sysop based on their personal opinion.In this case there was, clearly, not a consensus that the image failed NFCC#8. The closer substituted their own view for the community's. It's indefensible and self-evidently cannot be allowed to stand.—S Marshall T/C 11:17, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think it is inherently subjective. It's very strongly worded - that omitting the image would be detrimental to the article. If there's not consensus about whether its omission is detrimental, omitting it probably isn't detrimental. The delete argument by JBW is also exceptionally strong in determining the detriment. I don't see how no consensus is a viable option here. SportingFlyer T·C 14:48, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- If such an ideological split exists in any significant form seems an irrelevant question - the WMF has defined the project's boundaries in such a matter and we aren't free to just ignore it. the resolution on this states "the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to 'empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free content license'", it does of course recognise that for some images there maybe no choice and provides for it, but on your ideological level it's pretty clear. (Incidentally your idea of use legally seems to mean use legally in certain countries many places in the world don't, if indeed an image is needed for understanding someone truly interested in writing a universal encyclopedia would do all they could to come up with an alternate for those many people in the world who can't use the non-free stuff, of course if you are only interested in writing something to be read on wikipedia.org I guess you may not be interested in full free content) --81.100.164.154 (talk) 08:42, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm here to write an encyclopaedia, and to build good quality encyclopaedia content by any lawful means. I feel that people who're here to delete encyclopaedic content for reasons of free content ideology are not here to build an encyclopaedia, and I have no patience for them whatsoever.—S Marshall T/C 20:55, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to NC Pretty much per S Marshall's arguments. Put more simply: NFCC#8 is an opinion-based criteria, there was no numeric consensus in the discussion, and the keep argument wasn't clearly wrong. I've no objection to a relist. Hobit (talk) 13:01, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. Whilst there was not a consensus at the discussion, NFCC are applied strictly and require a clear consensus to keep a non-free file, which was not present. Stifle (talk) 16:10, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @Stifle:I'm too far out of NFCC stuff these days. Could you point me at where that is specified? Hobit (talk) 01:57, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Quotes from WP:NFC:
- There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article or elsewhere on Wikipedia.
- Note that it is the duty of users seeking to include or retain content to provide a valid rationale; those seeking to remove or delete it are not required to show that one cannot be created
- In general, the basis of Wikipedia as a free encyclopedia requires that non-free content is an exception and requires a consensus to include, not to exclude. Stifle (talk) 09:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Having had the NFCC hammer come down on episodes that I'd worked on extensively, I feel the DRV nom's pain here. At the same time, whpq and Fastily are both quite active and experienced in dealing with such areas. I suspect specialist understanding of the topic may have outstripped what an average editor understands. At what point does being so familiar with the people & assumptions about NFCC become less of a help and more of a barrier? I truly do not know. Jclemens (talk) 07:16, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Endorse, noting that:
- I have very little experience at Files for Discussion.
- The appellant appears to be re-litigating the decision rather than citing an error by the closer.
- Delete, Relist, or No Consensus would have been valid closures. So Delete is a valid closure.
Robert McClenon (talk) 07:25, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn either to NC or to relist per S Marshall. To the contrary of the above, this is certainly not relitigating the discussion; it is merely pointing out that NFCC 8 is a criterion that has been interpreted in very "creative" ways, and requires community consensus to determine rather than being one of the more "objective" criterions, despite the close claiming it was a clear case. There's no rule that only title cards can be used as "representative" images, and such a rule would be silly anyway and not find consensus. The delete votes were quite unconvincing here. SnowFire (talk) 01:35, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. Keep argument had three faulty points: it's been here a long time, other stuff exists, and it increases the readers' understanding simply by existing. WP:NFC#CS is very clear: the file either has to be subject to critical commentary or identifies "an object, style, or behavior, that is a subject of discussion in the article." Taking a random screenshot from the episode does not satisfy NFCC. This was uploaded in 2006, it's time to stop making arguments like it's still 2006. ✗plicit 07:27, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to Keep - the reader's understanding of the non-free item in question, the episode "Dead Soldiers" of the "The Wire", is clearly significantly enhanced by the inclusion of the minimal bit possible - one can't use less than one frame of an episode. Thus, it meets NFCC#8, and its frankly disingenuous and dishonest to suggest otherwise. CS refers to possible ways something can meet NFCC#8 - it's about sufficient, not necessary, conditions (and frankly, a guideline, rather than the policy). Really, there's absolutely no argument for deletion, so closing as keep is the only possible outcome. WilyD 10:45, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to NC or relist. I join the views of S Marshall and Hobit. NFCC#8 is a matter of editorial judgment, not something a closer can or should decide by fiat. And there was no consensus in the FfD about whether NFCC#8 was met. Sandstein 20:26, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Relist. S Marshall is correct that NFCC#8 interpretations are so subjective that they can only be reached on a case-by-case basis by discussion consensus. There is simply no such thing as a "Textbook WP:NFCC#8 violation" claimed by the closing admin in the closing statement, and that finding was, in a sense, a super-vote. However, Stifle is also correct that in WP:NFC cases, "the basis of Wikipedia as a free encyclopedia requires that non-free content is an exception and requires a consensus to include, not to exclude." A discussion consisting of two detailed well-argued opinions, one for keep, another for delete, in addition to a fairly short 'delete' nom, certainly qualifies as 'no consensus'. A simple close of "no consensus, default to delete" might have been acceptable here. However, that's not how the closing admin phrased the closing rationale, and the FfD was closed rather quickly. It makes much more sense to resist it and see if actual consensus for something can be achieved here. Nsk92 (talk) 11:11, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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