- Template:Infobox Finnish municipality (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The votes before relist were:
- Subst and delete
- Delete after replacement
- Keep until replacement
- SPEEDY CLOSE ("is a wrapper since creation" and the IP proposed it itself for substitution)
It was closed as delete [1].
Later a DRV was started (Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2019 March 22#2019 February 22), the nominator claimed he found new information and requested re-opening (=relist). In the DRV one user asked what that new information would be, but got no answer. Another endorsed the deletion. And some others supported relist. It was closed as relist, even if the proof for validity of the DRV has not been presented.
It was relisted: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 April_6#Template:Infobox Finnish municipality. After relisting only one extra vote was made, which semi-voted keep referring to the DRV (In light of the DRV discussion, I think it's clear this template should be kept), but contrary to that claim, in the DRV no user voted keep. No more comments were made so the votes stood at 3(4):1. Surprisingly the closing was done as "no consensus". To me it seems the result would be "Replace (subst:) and (then) delete". Of course replacement should be done with care. But calling template data from {{infobox settlement}} has been done before, e.g. Amsterdam calls Dutch municipality templates (Category:Netherlands data templates). Pppery mentioned the example of Belgium in his DRV deletion endorse: "Endorse there is nothing that needs changing here; there is clearly consensus to not use a wrapper infobox, and it seems like there is consensus to continue to use the data subtemplates. Those two outcomes are not incompatible, as data subtemplates can be passed directly to the infobox, see Template:Metadata Population BE for an example.". This would also address the concerns in the pre-relist comment by Apalsola: "However, I still think that the information should not be stored directly on the page.". TerraCyprus (talk) 16:47, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Zackmann08, Pppery, Pigsonthewing, Apalsola, Pudeo, and Uanfala: - pinging participants of the first discussion and the discussion after relist. TerraCyprus (talk) 16:57, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: Today I separated all data from the infobox, the replacement could now be done similar to how data is handled for the municipalities in the Netherlands. TerraCyprus (talk) 16:57, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to replace and delete due to the complete lack of any argument against the "pass data from templates as parameters to {{Infobox settlement}}" approach that I talked about in the first DRV, even among those who argue the template should be kept. * Pppery * it has begun... 18:45, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Close as not meeting WP:DRVPURPOSE. In the first DRV, I said, Templates are a highly technical area ... I can't see how it hurts to let the people who actually understand the technology talk about it for another week. Apparently, there wasn't much interest in talking about it at WP:TfD. That's unfortunate, but the bottom line is 1) You can't keep coming back to DRV until you get the result you want, and 2) As I said before, this is largely a technical decision which requires specialized knowledge of how templates are used and constructed. If TfD is unable to come to agreement, it's not reasonable to expect that DRV, which is made up of people who are (for the most part) not template experts, can do a better job. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:23, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- RoySmith : FUD. WP:DRVPURPOSE: "if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;" - that is what happened. One bogus oppose vote, nothing more, still "no consensus". 77.11.48.80 (talk) 00:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- TerraCyprus I think it would be more productive to spend 7 days on a new Tfd (as I mentioned you could do so on my talk page), likely getting a consensus for subst and delete, rather than spending 7 days at DRV. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:28, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Galobtter it would have been more productive if you would not have messed it up in the first place or at least would have changed after TerraCyprus contacted you. The vote was clear, only one opposer, still you decided to call it "no consensus". 77.11.48.80 (talk) 00:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- There does seem to be a consensus to get rid of the template and replace it with something else, but no particular consensus on what that something should be. In particular I don't see a consensus for substing and deleting it afterwards. The OP seems to have counted everybody who wanted to replace the template as supporting the subst outcome, but I don't see that in the discussion. Hut 8.5 21:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- User:Hut 8.5, this is an infobox wrapper template and if nothing else is mentioned, then it means to replace the wrapper with the infobox template it wraps. Has been done in more than 50 cases, nothing new. 78.55.42.78 (talk) 19:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. The initial vote was clearly for subst/replace. The first DRV may or may not have met the criteria of WP:DRVPURPOSE (Pigsonthewing asked for details but got no response) but resulted in relist. In the discussion after the relist no-one explained why subst/replace should not be implemented. Technical details of the subst/replace had to be solved before implementation, but that is up to the implementers of the outcome subst/delete and that didn't seem to be too complicated. TerraCyprus even has proven that outsourcing the data into pure data-storage templates is possible. That means the initial vote has to be respected. Replacement through Subst:itution should be done, followed by deletion. 92.214.166.220 (talk) 21:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. Consensus is way too far from clear for DRV to overturn “no consensus” to delete. WP:RENOM. This is a matter for WP:TfD. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:56, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- SmokeyJoe, the votes before relist were:
- Subst and delete
- Delete after replacement
- Keep until replacement
- SPEEDY CLOSE ("is a wrapper since creation" and the voter proposed it itself for substitution)
- Why are these four votes "way too far from clear"? 78.55.42.78 (talk) 19:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse and allow immediate TfD renomination. At Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2019 March 22#Template:Infobox Finnish municipality, the 22 March 2019 DRV nominator (who was also the TfD nominator) wrote:
The biggest thing was the discovery of Special:PrefixIndex/Template:Infobox_Finnish_municipality/. While in general I am opposed to the use of templates to store data in this way, right now it is the best solution there is. Until such time as all that data is able to be ported over to something like Wikidata in a more supporting way, I think that converting the infobox will cause more harm than good. Whether or not you agree with that, I strongly believe this point warrants further discussion. In the interest of fairness and transparency, I think we need to hash out that part of the discussion before choosing to delete the template.
I did not see "hash[ing] out that part of the discussion before choosing to delete the template" after the relisting at TfD. The only comment after the relisting was: In light of the DRV discussion, I think it's clear this template should be kept without prejudice to renomination if someone who's well acquainted with the intricate functionality of the template is willing to support change and is prepared to put it in the apparently high amount of effort needed to implement that change.
The closing admin's statement ("Looks like the technical feasibility of replacement needs to be investigated more") is an accurate summary of the lack of consensus in the discussion about how to replace the template.The 9 June 2019 DRV nominator wrote on the closing admin's talk page: I today outsourced all the data code from the infobox to Category:Data Finland municipality templates, which is inside Category:Data templates. Cf. also Category:Template:Metadata Population. Now infoboxes or other pages can retrieve the data stored in the data templates indepent from the infobox. The replacement could start soon.
The closing admin replied, "It looks the edits you have done have made substing viable; I would suggest starting another TfD to evaluate that (you can ping the participants of the previous discussion)."I therefore support allowing an immediate TfD renomination so that these changes can be discussed. Cunard (talk) 08:00, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Cunard, the votes before relist were:
- Subst and delete
- Delete after replacement
- Keep until replacement
- SPEEDY CLOSE ("is a wrapper since creation" and the voter proposed it itself for substitution)
- Why the weird closing as "no consensus"? 78.55.42.78 (talk) 19:09, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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