- Andre Barnett (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Having taken part in the AFD for this, I was very surprised that it was closed as keep. Like all political candidates, Barnett has to meet either WP:GNG ("significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject") or the subject specific guidlines at WP:POLITICIAN. Of the 7 people that took part in that debate, only three argued for a keep and they did so arguing that candidates for US President should have a specifically low threshold. User:DGG argued for example that the Reform Party is "an important enough minor party to make its candidates for President notable,even if he's only running for that party's nomination" while User:Carrite, agreeing with the "low threshold" argument added: "The fact of the candidacy is sourced out in the footnotes, that is sufficient for me."
The problem with those arguments, as I pointed out in the discussion, is that they have absolutely no basis in policy, which in fact, in the politician guideline, says exactly the opposite: "just being an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article"." There are no exceptions made there for US Presidential candidates or specifically lower thresholds. Many of those participating, argued that there shouldn't be, based on the fact that there are 350 candidates running. None of the keep votes actually argued that Barnett had the significant coverage in reliable sources needed.
A further problem here is that having discussed it with him, I'm concerned that the closing admin, Martijn_Hoekstra, may be misinterpreting his role in closing AFDs. He pointed me to his essay User:Martijn_Hoekstra/what_is_AfD the relevant parts of which say: "there are in fact only two outcomes of an AfD...That means there are only two opinions that can be voiced on a deletion discussion: we should use the delete tool on this article, or we shouldn't use it (and, obviously, why we should or shouldn't do that). That also means that any opinion other than delete, is automatically keep...redirect means: don't use the delete tool... The second meaning is always an aside to keep."
I disagree with that, closing admins are not just there to decide whether the result is delete or keep (and we'll decide later what to do with it) Wikipedia:AFD#How_an_AfD_discussion_is_closed says: "After seven days, an uninvolved admin will assess the discussion for consensus to Keep, Delete, Merge, Redirect, or Transwiki the article." As a result I disagree that the people there arguing on the basis of policy that the article should be redirected, should have their opinions reclassed effectively as keep and would like this close reviewed. Valenciano (talk) 13:36, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- endorse All Wikipedia notability guidelines are flexible and the WP:N guideline says so specifically, Even if it didn't , all guidelines are by their inherent nature flexible. And even if tit didn't say so, we have a basic policy superseding al guidelines, WP:IAR. In other words, we make the guidelines, and we can make whatever exceptions we please to them. with the exception of copyright and libel, there is no external legal authority which controls us. We control ourselves, in whatever way the consensus decides to. This was argued to be an exception, and it is the people at the AfD who decide. the purpose of the AfD discussion was essentially to decide whether to make an exception in this case, and the people there did decide to. (I think reasonably, but if I though unreasonably, it would make no difference.; many exceptions are made I disagree with--some are not made when I think they ought to be. But the consensus decides, and what I as an individual think about it makes no particular difference. A closing admin who decided not to use IAR when the consensus called for it would be casting a supervote, and would be reversed here DGG ( talk ) 15:32, 25 March 2012 (UTC) .[reply]
- There is very clearly not a consensus in that particular case to use WP:IAR. Guidelines like WP:POLITICIAN have been arrived at after many discussions. If people think that specific exceptions should be made in it for US Presidential candidates, then they should argue that at WP:N. Until they have that consensus overturned however, arguments in AFDs that Presidential candidates are automatically notable are not supported by policy and as JohnCD points out below, it is the job of admins to weigh up arguments based on policy. Valenciano (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- overturn to redirect. (Disclosure: that was my !vote in the AfD - like Valenciano, I took part and was surprised by the close). I disagree with DGG above - the first two keep !votes, arguing that candidates for POTUS should have a specially low notability threshold, had no basis in policy, and it is the closing admin's business to assess the policy arguments presented, not to invoke IAR to decide that !votes that explicitly go against policy constitute a new consensus - that would really be a supervote, and if that were allowed, AfD would become a head-count. JohnCD (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse there are at least 2 good sources in the article. [1] and [2]. Would seem to meet WP:N. The delete arguments never addressed the sources in the article so their waves at not meeting WP:N has to be taken with a (large) grain of salt. Maybe those sources are flawed, but I'm not seeing anything in the discussion to indicate why. Of course the keep !votes didn't address the sources either. But as the sources look acceptable on their face, a keep isn't outside of discretion. Hobit (talk) 16:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The issue of sources was addressed by the nominator, who pointed out that with one possible exception, the sources were all primary sources or blogs. The first source you list above is a blog and vewry questionable. Valenciano (talk) 17:03, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Good point on the first source I listed. I'm now not certain if that is a RS or not, that would take some effort to figure out I think. That said, the nom didn't (as far as I can see) address the second source I listed (which certainly seems reliable) but did accept [3] which while a very short source, is also reliable. Hobit (talk) 00:58, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - Whereas an unelected candidate for city council or state legislature should face a high burden of proof as to notability, a candidate for President of the United States should not be treated so harshly. This piece is sourced and this individual merits encyclopedic biography, bottom line. Carrite (talk) 17:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - Barnett is not just some kook who threw his name into the hat. He is one of four recognized candidates for the nomination of the Reform Party of the United States of America, a minor party but also a recognized one which received over 8 million votes in 1996. There are no policy violations here, as both WP:GNG and WP:POLITICIAN are guidelines subject to interpretation and should not be applied on a "just say no" basis, but instead according to informed consensus of participating editors, which in this case included several who are quite experienced in dealing with deletion debates regarding political candidates. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - I'm skeptical that he's notable, but the AfD close is sound based on the discussion that was had. Possibly could have been closed no consensus, but that would have still resulted in a keep. Just because User:Valenciano apparently wasn't persuasive enough to draw others to his opinion doesn't make the close wrong.--Milowent • hasspoken 19:28, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No consensus could have encouraged another AfD debate, when clearly this topic should not be brought back to AfD. Unscintillating (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse Closer correctly notes in subsequent discussion on closer's talk page that there was no deletion to consider, so "keep" is the correct outcome to return the topic to editorial control. Unscintillating (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The nomination statement was very weak, and no one agreed with it. It was a SNOW "do not delete". Whether it should be kept or merged and redirected is not a question for AfD, and so relisting would be inappropriate. Discuss merge options on the article's talk page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. As SmokeyJoe and others point out, the discussion clearly establishes a consensus that the issues involved should be addressed by standard editing processes rather than through the deletion process. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:51, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks to all above for the comments, it's clear that the consensus is to endorse therefore per WP:SNOW, I believe this should be closed. Valenciano (talk) 18:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support closing per WP:SNOW. FWIW, I am the original nominator of the afd and accept the consensus to endorse. It is worth noting also that since the close of the afd, additional sources have surfaced and been added to the article which support a reasonable case for (at the very least) marginal notabilty. At this time, I see no reason to overturn closing administrator's decision.--JayJasper (talk) 18:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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