- International Communist Current (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Posting on behalf of User:The Lion of Lannister who accidentally created this page His rationale...
This page has been deleted because someone said the ICC is a sect which is not notable under wikipedia policy. However today the ICC is the biggest left communist organization internationally and pages of much smaller organizations exist as well as pages of certain sections of the ICC. It is indeed more notable than most similar political organizations, having been covered in a Daily Mail article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331892/Tuition-fee-militants-picket-school-gates.html. The article should be up again.
Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:31, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Two questions. #1 was this closed properly? I really don't think so. I see no consensus for deletion given that the keep !votes were fairly darn reasonable and the delete !votes didn't address anything they said. #2, should we have this article? I really think it should be merged somewhere, but our encyclopedia should certainly cover this. We aren't paper and we are supposed to cover things covered in other specialized encyclopedias. Editorially, given the lack of in-depth coverage, I don't think this should be a stand alone article. But as there are at least two encyclopedias/references that cover this topic (One in the AfD and [1]) I do think we should do at least as solid of a job as our paper counterparts. And this group does see limited news coverage. I think our bar with respect to groups like this is way too high. Hobit (talk) 16:21, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Rewrite and optionally relist The organization might be notable, and I think we should extend especial tolerance in this regard to minor political and religious groups, because of the inevitable bias in judging. But the last version of the article is too much of an exposition of the groups general policies, most of which are extremely similar to similar groups, and too little about this group in particular. I'd pretty muchclassify it as a possible G11 candidate. I'd like to see us cover it, but with a better and clearer article. DGG ( talk ) 01:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn, DGG makes good points, but wikipedia allows for gradual growth, if there is notability then even a bad article is ok, because time will suck in a zealous editor at some point.LuciferWildCat (talk) 11:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Undelete If this is deleted, then there should be a vast swathe of deletions of less notable organizations, from the entire political spectrum. I'm talking about dozens if not hundreds of articles. 64.222.222.9 (talk) 21:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep it deleted. The International Communist Current is a sect. It is not notable at all under Wikipedia's policies, not specifically because it is a sect, but because so little has been written about it by reliable sources. There was, I think, a single source in the article independent of the ICC. "Might be notable" is not a reason for undeletion. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 22:48, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not true that the ICC is mentioned by a single reliable source though. The ICC is cited in a book by Christophe Bourseiller called "Histoire de l'Ultra-Gauche" (http://www.amazon.fr/Histoire-g%C3%A9n%C3%A9rale-lultra-gauche-Christophe-Bourseiller/dp/2207251632/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324298512&sr=1-2) The ICC and one of its founders, Marc Chirik are both cited in Philippe Bourrinet's book on the Dutch Left (http://libcom.org/files/dutchleft.pdf) and this is a serious doctoral thesis. The ICC is also cited in Authier and Barrot's book on the German Communist Left (on Google Books: http://books.google.fr/books?id=ZUXOJCYPOwQC&q=courant+communiste+international&dq=courant+communiste+international&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=eTHvToHkO4-s8QPUvYiaCg&redir_esc=y) and as a reference in Simon Pirani's book on the Russian Revolution in retreat (http://books.google.fr/books?id=czMWmnYbXFIC&pg=PA195&dq=%22international+communist+current%22+russian&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=yFPvTt3hJ4K2hAfEgsHJCA&sqi=2&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22international%20communist%20current%22%20russian&f=false) The ICC has also published books itself: The British Left, Communism, The Russian Left, which can all be referenced. Marc Chirik himself has a wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Chirik) which is much better referenced compared to the previous page on the ICC itself and it indeed points out to the fact that there is even a famous novel written about Marc Chirik. Whether the ICC is a sect or not is not something which can be decided upon by the comment of a single wikipedia user, especially coming from someone who self-identifies as an anti-communist - acting on this basis is against the principle of neutrality. --The Lion of Lannister 22:14, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Many of those are not independent sources. Philippe Bourrinet's book was originally published by the International Communist Current itself, so it is not surprising that it mentions the ICC (the version The Lion of Lannister links to above is a different version, revised, and independent of the ICC; I'm not sure whether it was even properly published). Pirani's book isn't about the ICC, and any brief reference to it that it may make is hardly relevant. Likewise irrelevant are the facts that Marc Chirik has a Wikipedia article, and that I'm an anti-communist (which no more invalidates my judgments than your judgments would be invalidated if you declared on your user page that you're an ICC supporter - and note that that's purely a 'what if' scenario; I'm not suggesting that you are anything). Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 00:50, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- No, these actually are independent sources. It is true that Philippe Bourrinet's book was originally published by the ICC itself but the version linked is the new version, which was, again, published as an actual, academic doctoral thesis. Pirani's book obviously isn't about the ICC (because it is about the Russian Revolution) but it also is a very serious academic work and that there is a reference to the ICC in it means that the ICC is not, in any way, unnoticeable. The other sources which you didn't comment on also are sources completely independent from the ICC. Surely the notability of its most significant founder isn't irrelevant to the question of whether the ICC is relevant or not. And, of course, in a number of other wikipedia articles of greatly varying topics, articles by the ICC are used either as references or as external reading links. You being an anti-communist does invalidate your judgment when you make ad hominem comments about communist groups, such as claiming they are sects. --The Lion of Lannister 11:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- For something to be notable, it has to have been the subject of significant coverage in reliable sources - brief, passing mentions in a book like Pirani's just don't count. The notability of Marc Chirik is indeed irrelevant to the notability of the ICC as an organization - if he is notable, he is notable, but that does not magically bestow notability on a group he was involved with. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 02:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know why you keep insisting. You claimed that there was only a single mention of the ICC in different resources, this was why you initially argued that the ICC was not notable. Then, it was clearly demonstrated that there are, indeed, numerous other sources in the ICC, in numerous languages. Now, ignoring all of the other sources cites and the fact that the ICC website itself is used as a source for numerous wikipedia articles, and the fact that there has been a Daily Mail article about the ICC and so on and so on, you keep repeating that one of the sources (the Pirani book) doesn't count - so the organization is not notable. Claiming that for something to be notable, it has to have been the subject of significant coverage in reliable sources - what does this mean, does it mean there has to be several books explicitly about a topic if it is to have a page? This means deleting more than half of the articles on wikipedia. It means deleting all the articles on all the sportsmen, authors, musicians, artists etc. who aren't top celebrities, deleting all the historical events and groups unless they were extremely major and so on. --The Lion of Lannister 12:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You appear to be unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policy regarding notability. Please see WP:NOTE, which states, among other things, "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list." Brief mentions in a book like Pirani's obviously aren't "significant coverage", so no, it doesn't count. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 20:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Furthermore, I never said there was only a single source anywhere discussing the ICC - only that there was a single source in the article independent of the ICC itself, which was true. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 20:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn The close seemed to give insufficient attention to alternatives to deletion such as merger, which was suggested by more than one person in the discussion. This seems to be one of the numerous factions of splitters and so might best be merged into a more general article such as List of left-wing internationals. Warden (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not the closing administrator's job to read the minds of those involved in the deletion discussion, nor is it the closing admin's job to do another action in which the participants of said AFD had failed to discuss. --MuZemike 00:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- TFD said "I would suggest however that merging the article would be more appropriate.". Sandstein said "...selectively merge into a list of similar groups or other parent article.". Q.E.D. Warden (talk) 21:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Does this mean merging the ICC with the Communist Bulletin Group. I am not sure how that will work. Last time the met there were very bitter accusations - inlcuding the theft of typewriters. I suppose if they merely share a wikipedia page, the worst that can happen is that they nick each others typos!Leutha (talk) 13:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, it is an absurdity in itself that there is a CBG page while the ICC page has been deleted. The ICC is about fifty times bigger than the CBG ever was, so notability-wise, it doesn't make much sense. --The Lion of Lannister 01:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The fact that the CBG has a Wikipedia article doesn't mean that it should have one. If the ICC is not notable, the CBG is even less so, so it should be deleted as well. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 02:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If the ICC is not notable, probably the majority of the leftist organizations which have pages on wikipedia are not notable actually. Sherlock Holmes Fan's deletionist policy, however, isn't a rule. --The Lion of Lannister 12:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps there should be a merged page which includes the ICC, CBG and such groups as the Knights of the Negative who merged with the ICC in 1975 I believe?Leutha (talk) 10:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Undelete I strongly disagree with the reason given deletion given originally that the ICC are not notable because they are supposedly a 'sect' - what is that even supposed to mean? I gives the unfortunate impression of political motivated deletionism. The ICC are clearly a notable organisation for an encyclopedia, they are one of the main and longest standing left communist organisations, with distinctive political positions, and are actively involved in ultra-left politics in a number of countries. If the ICC are not notable why would there be entries in 8 non-English versions of Wikipedia, and why would for example the ICC sections in the US and Venezuela be notable? - pir (talk) 18:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You misunderstand the issue. The article was deleted not because the International Communist Current is a sect (although it is), but because it is not notable. Saying the ICC are "clearly notable" is simply making an irrelevant assertion; notability depends on what reliable sources have written about a subject, not on editors' ideas about how important something is. Moreover, the fact that the two Internationalism groups have Wikipedia articles does not make them notable - editors create articles on non-notable topics all the time, and often they remain in Wikipedia because no one can be bothered nominating them for deletion.Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 02:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, but I understand the issue. My point is that the original VfD should be regarded as invalid, because the initiator of the VfD framed the discussion by stating that the ICC are 'a sect' (btw., I'd be quite interested in what you mean by that, do you believe they are a religious sect? do you call them a sect because they came out of a political split?). This caused the original VfD to be biased, with for example links to reliable sources provided by user:AllyD being ignored. Another user above has already posted further links to reliable independent sources, so no need for me to repeat that. - pir (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If indeed, notability depends on the reliable sources on the subjecting, what is actually irrelevant is a user with a deletionist and anti-communist bias ignoring the existence of these sources. Also, he keeps changing his argument as he goes along. His initial reasoning when he started a page for the deletion of the ICC page was that the ICC was not notable because it was a sect. --The Lion of Lannister 12:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Pir claimed that the simple fact that an organization has a Wikipedia article about it means that it is notable. That emphatically is not the case, and does count as misunderstanding the issue. It was never my argument that the ICC's article should be deleted because the ICC is a "sect", although I see now that I could have been misunderstood as making that argument. Complaints about my bias are irrelevant (and I hardly need point out what it shows that you attack me for stating my political views openly while saying nothing about your own politics). Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Undelete Please bear with a neophyte editor for finding this whole procedure very difficult to understand. As far as i can see, the ICC page has been "reinstated" but is empty. I have prepared a short page to replace the original, but I am not sure whether it is appropriate etiquette to load it now, or if there is something else I should wait for. Guidance would be welcome here. I also find it hard to follow Sherlock Holmes Fan's reasoning. First, he keeps on insisting that the ICC is a "sect". Since he's a Christian I suppose he should know about sects, but this is a political argument not a religious one. At all events, even if the ICC were a sect then that is completely irrelevant to the argument (even the Solar Temple gets a page after all). More relevant is the issue of "notability". I confess again to being a novice here, but I would put forward the following arguments in favour of the ICC page being retained:
- Notability is a very relative issue: one of the very excellent things about Wikipedia is that it offers the opportunity to people to contribute freely their knowledge about things which are not considered "notable" by the "official" world of paper encyclopedias, even things like Frog jumping contests for heavens sakes (not very notable in my view, even if they get a mention in a book by Mark Twain). The ICC is a minority taste, to be sure, but it has existed and published a trilingual quarterly for more than thirty years (as can be seen from its web site, or indeed from a research on eBay where back issues of its Review are sold at ridiculous prices as collectables): this seems to me pretty notable in itself.
- Sherlock Holmes Fan says that the various books where the ICC is cited are "not enough" to make it notable. Quite the contrary, it seems to me: these citations (from books published as wide apart as Authier and Barrot's classic La Gauche communiste en Allemagne to Simon Pirani's book on the Russian revolution) show that the ICC's publications are considered as serious source material for historical books on these subjects (most recently, the Review has published a document by Gavril Myasnikov previously unavailable in English, rescued from the archives in Moscow. Nor does Sherlock Holmes Fan take into consideration that Marc Chirik was not just "associated" with the ICC, but devoted the last 15 years of his life to it. Chirik was the hero of Planet without visa, Jean Malaquais (one of the major writers of 20th century France IMHO, and a friend of Norman Mailer). Malaquais considered this to be his best work, and the organisation that Chirik devoted so much of his life to is notable if only as a means of understanding one of the best books written in French in the last 100 years (a subjective judgment, it's true)
- Sherlock Holmes Fan doesn't seem in the least concerned about the overall coherence of Wikipedia. He goes on and on about deleting the ICC web page, but has nothing to say about the pages of other organisations which are considered part of the Communist Left. Now, since the Communist Left includes major figures of 20th century history (Amadeo Bordiga, Sylvia Pankhurst, Anton Pannekoek, Herman Gorter, to name but a few) it is definitely notable, and any editorial decisions on any one Wikipedia page ought IMHO to take this into account. As it is you have the absurd situation where the Left Communism page references Wiki pages for all sorts of much smaller groups, but not the biggest of them. True, the Left Communism page could do with some editing, and I am aware of the rule that pages should stand on their own merit, nonetheless, there should be some concern for overall coherence. In fact, the impression I am left with is that SHF has a particular antipathy for the ICC (God only knows why) which he is pursuing here.
- Finally, it should be pointed out that the ICC has an entire, not very complimentary, chapter (or even two) devoted to it in Christophe Bourseiller's Histoire générale de l'ultra-gauche. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jens1917 (talk • contribs) 22:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think Jens1917 makes some good points. What I find weird is that constituent parts of the ICC, such as World Revolution (UK) have a page to themselves, but Revolution Internationale has nothing even though they are the only part of the ICC to have achieved anything much - i.e their role in the Council for Maintaining the Occupations - aside, of course, providing a butt for those who find their solemn self-importance a source of amauement. I would suggest "centralising" (this is a term they really love) information about their various sections into one glorious article, and make sure it is not simply a gloss gleaned from the self-adulating press.Leutha (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid most of Jens1917's comments are beside the point. The only relevant part of Jens1917's remarks is the mention of Christophe Bourseiller's book (to which I do not have access). If it discusses the ICC, then possibly that would show that it is notable, but not (as I say) having access to it, I can't tell. Everything else Jens1917 said is beside the point, and I leave it to him or her to find out why; if you want to participate in Wikipedia, it's your responsibility to familiarize yourself with its policies and procedures. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 07:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I have a couple of further observation. As Jens1917 and The Lion of Lannister have both accused me of bringing a political bias into this discussion, they might want to say something about their own political views, specifically whether they are ICC supporters. It is a little curious that they accuse me of political bias - which is in itself a political act - while remaining silent about their own political affiliations. I think it should also be taken into account that Leutha has apparently been raising the issue of the deletion of the ICC article on an external forum, for example here http://libcom.org/forums/general/icc-deleted-wikipedia-16122011 Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 07:10, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- On the issue of political affiliation, I have not said anything about this because IMHO this is a discussion about Wikipedia and what an online encyclopedia should be, not about the political affiliation of this or that editor. My comment about SHF was not to do with political bias: since his page says he is both a Christian and an anti-Communist, I would normally expect him to be equally biased against anything "communist" (and so if anything more impartial a judge than Leutha who clearly has an axe to grind). His continued persistence on this subject to the exclusion of others (like the CBG page which should surely attract his ire also?) makes me wonder whether he does not have some bias other than political on the subject.
- On the guidelines, thanks for the advice, and I have indeed read (and re-read) the guidelines concerning notability. I note that "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail. Three books IMHO satisfy this criterion: Bourseiller's book on the Ultra-Left (as he calls it), Hempel's book on "Marc Laverne", and the collected works of the Internationale Situationniste. All of these are in French, and as far as I am aware only Bourseiller's book is still in print.
- As always, guidelines are open to interpretation. I note that the guidelines also say that The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. Now, as I have argued above, the fact that ICC publications are cited as sources by works concerned not with the ICC directly, but with subjects of wider historical interest, is evidence that the ICC has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. Simply to say that "this is irrelevant" is not an argument.
- To conclude, I am willing to load a proposed page which answers the previous objections, and will do so in the next few days unless someone tells me that there is another route that one is supposed to follow on this. Thank you--Jens1917 (talk) 16:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You have to wait for this discussion to be concluded before restoring the article. You cannot restore it unless agreement is reached here to do that. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 06:04, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Nine days elapsed with no comment, and now Sherlock Holmes Fan acts, without actually taking the discussion furthere. I feel Jens1917 has made a significant improvement to the page, which I have also tinkered with, and we also have proposed page merges with constituent elements of the ICC which still retain their own pages. Also Sherlock Holmes Fan removed the revised content of the page even though the template employed indicated that it should remain so that fellow editors could consider the matter fully. I am concerned that Sherlock Holmes Fan has become emotionally involved and has allowed this to cloud their judgement. If not, then let's please have some reasoned debate on the topic.Leutha (talk) 11:13, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Leutha's suggestion that I am emotionally involved and that my judgement is clouded should be compared against his and Jens1917's actions. Leutha has engaged in behavior on an offsite forum (Libcom.org) that could be considered an attempt to recruit like-minded (eg, sympathetic to left communism) editors to Wikipedia. See the link I posted above, and this link http://libcom.org/forums/general/theye-re-back-icc-might-eb-reprieved-oblivion-28122: as well. Jens1917, meanwhile, has added blatantly biased content to the Interational Communist Current article, such as the following: "More recently, the ICC's participation in the UK students' movement has been (inaccurately) denounced by the Daily Mail." (Which replaced the text, "In November 2010, the ICC joined people advocating the use of "legitimate force" to stop a rise in tuition fees at British universities to mobilise school children. At least one ICC member attended a planning meeting of the Education Activist Network campaign group"). That kind of language is clearly biased in favor of the ICC. It amounts to an attempt to use the Wikipedia article to promote the International Communist Current and its political positions. I make no apology for doing everything in my power to stop that. Sherlock Holmes Fan (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, please compare my comment with the link. In fact if you look at posts on Libcom site, far from being what Sherlock Holmes Fan calls "like-minded" there are very differing views as regards the ICC. However, the post there is useful in that attracts the interest of people who are knowledgeable about the topic. If you consider the edits I made to Jens1917 re-edit, you will see that I addressed some of the bias, eg I referenced the Sitiuationist International accussing them of intellectual dishonsety. This is not consistent with "an attempt to use the Wikipedia article to promote the International Communist Current and its political positions" as Sherlock Holmes Fan claims. If Sherlock Holmes Fan genuinely wants to do something in their power to stop that, then making an edit which is more compatible with newspaper quote would be the appropriate way forward. However Sherlock Holmes Fan has not done that. The question of notability has not been addressed, following the production of independent sources. Further Sherlock Holmes Fan made no effort to respond to Jens1917's proposal even after it had been here for over a week. In consequence I have posted the matter Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#International_Communist_Current here.Leutha (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn Drmies' justification for closing this AfD with a "delete" result was simply "existence does not equal notability." While that is true, I'm not sure that statement reflected the consensus reached in the discussion, if indeed one existed. However, as far as DRV is concerned, the correctness of the close should probably be water under the bridge at this point. That's because the sources noted by AllyD in the AfD, when combined with the sources found by Jens1917 in this very discussion, should be enough to allow for a Wikipedia article on the ICC. In particular, the existence of an entry for the ICC in the Encyclopedia of British and Irish political organizations and the coverage of the organization in the books by Christophe Bourseiller and Pierre Hempel appear to be good enough for undeletion. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 02:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
|
