- Intellum,_Inc. (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The entry was no less notable than entries for other companies and products in the learning management system space. The entry had independent 3rd party references, indicating why the company was notable in the market, and contained no "sales speak." Medra42 (talk) 01:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing admin comment This wasn't addressed with me on my talk page, although I likely wouldn't have budged on the close anyhow. Medra42 doesn't addressed how the AFD was closed improperly nor what error the AFD made. DRV is not AFD-redo.--v/r - TP 01:56, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 02:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC) [reply]
- Question. I do not see how the discussion could have been concluded otherwise; the only thing that would change the conclusion is some evidence about the importance of the award stated in the article. Can you provide any help here? (There will always be some level of borderline importance where notability will be uncertain, and some articles at that level will be kept and some not. Changing the bar higher or lower will not remove the difficulty, just move it to a different level. The only alternative, in most fields, is having an arbitrary cutoff that may or may not correspond to anything real, and produces the same result. Those cases where we do have an absolute qualification that corresponds to something true in the external world are quite limited: recordings & athletes, for example, and the advisability our our doing this is continually debated. I personally like true rational standards, but I do not see how one could be rationally constructed in this area.) DGG ( talk ) 02:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In reply:(I don't know that I'm doing this right.. still learning) I'm also not sure how a standard could be constructed in this area. This is my major problem with the deletion. I don't understand how it is any less notable than the pages than some other entries that exist, the most salient being Cornerstone OnDemand. The award given to Intellum came from what is considered by many to be one of the industry standard research groups in the field. As one can see, there are many products and companies providing software in this area, and the fact that they were mentioned at all is notable, given the competition. I'm more than willing to admit that, in the grand scheme of things, the quality of research from Brandon Hall and Bersin Associates is probably not up to Forrester and Gartner. However, none of these outlets is much more than a place for companies to buy their way into white papers and other more credible documents, just as most of the wire sources given on the Cornerstone page are nothing more than company news releases distributed via paid distribution channels. With that said, the award given to Intellum was not purchased, the research is as valid as it can be, and the company has been covered by broad-spectrum media (37signals).
- In addition, it seems that just before the deletion some comments were made towards the idea that I'm attempting to advertise for the company. This seems like a fairly wild accusation, and a sign that some editors are both understandably a little overly sensitive to companies creating entries, and unaware of the effect a Wikipedia actually has on a company's business (especially SMBs or regional brands). While I do some consulting work with Intellum, and they did ask me to take a look at the Wikipedia entry they created, I made changes to what they were attempting to post, and put my own effort into finding the 3rd party resources because I respect the fact that Wikipedia requires them.
- I respect the fact that Intellum, Inc. may not meet the requirements for notability, and that the entry may not survive. What I don't understand is why this entry is being picked at while others continue unquestioned, especially considering the fact that the Intellum entry contained verifiable, 3rd party recognition in 3 different, reliable, verifiable places.. which seems to indicate that the company is indeed notable in the industry.
- --Medra42 (talk) 03:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We agree there's no likely natural standard. When so, as with most Wikipedia article topics, we have a standard solution: the WP:GNG General Notability Guideline, which relies entirely on the presence of references providing significant coverage from independent published reliable sources. The difficulty comes with evaluating the meaning of significant, independent, and reliable; most contested AfDs revolve around those three words. (This criterion gives results that are sometimes arbitrary, depending on what happens to be accessible to the people here; there is particular difficulty with some subjects, where often little is formally written in such publicly accesible sources. It will sometimes seem that the only ones that get articles are the ones that have serious problems that attract the reporters.)
- I regret the discussion in the AfD did not make this clear but talked in a vague way about notability without actually explaining this is how we judge it, nor did the closer clarify it. Examining then your sources de novo: The first is a directory listing, which is not considered significant coverage; PR newswire is not independent of the company--it just prints press releases; the next entry is a presentation by the company CEO, & thus not independent; the next item is possible--its a cursory independent review based entirely on a presentation by he company--if the reviewer is a respected authority, we've sometimes but not always accepted such sources--that he's a responsible enough journalist to specify the limits of his sources speaks for his integrity; the last entry is the announcement of the award. Unfortunately, looking at it, Intellium did not win the fist prize: in its category,"Best Advance in Learning Management Technology for Small- and Medium-Sized Businesses" there were 2 gold, 4 silver and 3 broze awardsL the company was one of the silver. Since there are 7 categories of awards, it would appear that every possible product would have such an award. Were it a single award for the best product in the entire LMS category, I'd accept it as significant coverage & enough for an article.
- I conclude there is not enough evidence of notability; I did not say not enough notability--we can only go by the evidence. We haven't the skill or authority to evaluate the quality of business firms or anything else, only to evaluate the quality of the sources about them. I'd be willing to say the AfD was improper because nobody discussed the actual criteria, and you would be entitled to have another afd--which is really the place for the comments I just made, not here. But I think the result would clearly be the same,so there's nothing to be gained by it. What we advise in such cases is waiting until you have two truly substantial independent full product reviews from known reliable sources--in which case WP will want an article, regardless of what the reviews say about the quality of the product--we only judge the attention that is given it. As for the Cornerstone page, I assure you we will look at it. You could even yourself nominate it for deletion, but it will appear fairer if someone else judges whether to do that. DGG ( talk ) 10:20, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for taking the time to explain the thought process here and show a review of each source. I knew that they were not all great (PRNewsWire, etc.) but wasn't sure exactly why the more reliable sources were being, for lack of a better word, ignored. This helps quite a bit.
- And no, I won't be poking around asking for Cornerstone or other LMS pages to be deleted, although I'd like to keep an eye on them and attempt to lend any kind of help I can, as I'm intimately familiar with the space. FWIW, Cornerstone and others they do have some strong, notable sources, which I can't find for Intellum.
- --Medra42 (talk) 13:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. I participated in the AfD and not-voted to delete it. Article was clearly a promotional insertion about a "learning management system", a patently nonsensical phrase (what is a "learning management system", anyways? Something other than a teaching method that's being sold to people who fancy themselves managers?) Calling anything a "management system" is meaningless PR patter. Request for review is essentially WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Let me know about "other companies and products in the learning management system space" (Management system space? LOL) and I will take a look; outraged spammers are often valuable sources of leads. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 17:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Spot on. But a little harshly-phrased, perhaps?—S Marshall T/C 20:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps. (And I went ahead and stubbed Cornerstone OnDemand, removing meaningless trade awards for Leadership, and an unhelpful list of see-also's to usual suspects like software as a service). What frustrates me most is that so many of these spam articles about businesses just stick out as obviously promotional because of their buzzword-driven text, and it strikes me as tragicomic when the same prose patterns turn up in deletion discussions. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 21:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse- for three reasons. Firstly, the administrator clearly judged consensus properly. Secondly, "I don't like the result" is not a DRV rationale. Thirdly, the article was unambiguously advertising. Reyk YO! 04:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. Reasonable if not fully fleshed out deletion arguments from nominator and three other editors. Keep arguments from one apparently inexperienced or COI-conflicted editor—inexperienced and COI editor, as it turns out. DGG's detailed explanation here affirms the correctness of the closure and seems to have been accepted as reasonable by the "keep" voter/DRV requester who, to his credit, has disclosed his connection with the subject. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 04:52, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. Accurate reading of AFD discussion, no argument that discussion was not policy/guideline based. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk)`
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