- File:Chavezcoup.jpg (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)
After a lengthy and fairly involved debate (with two delete !votes, and three keeps including a strong keep), the discussion was closed without any commentary or rationale at all, just "The result of the discussion was: Delete." I think that in closing any contentious discussion, especially when the final decision goes against the majority of what was said, some rationale is in order. So I dropped a note on the closing editor's talk page, asking them to provide such a rationale. The answer I received was that "the keep !votes [...] largely consisted of WP:ILIKEIT." I suspect that the editor concerned hasn't read WP:ILIKEIT recently, as (whatever the merits or otherwise of the image) it's clear that none of the keep !votes were even close to being premised on liking either Chávez or the image. As such, this decision should be overturned. jbmurray (talk • contribs) 09:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If this looks familiar, it's because DRV just restored it on precisely the basis that Fastily so facilely dismissed. This wasn't rough consensus after discarding invalid WP:ILIKEIT arguments, it was a WP:NFCC#8 deletion—whose applicability requires consensus, in every case—on the basis of the nominator's and deleting administrator's WP:IDONTLIKEIT arguments. (And do please click on those links and reread them. They don't say what everyone seems to think they say.) Speedy overturn. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 10:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yup. Speedy overturn to no consensus because, exactly as we found last time, there was no consensus reached.—S Marshall T/C 11:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- overturn and a trout to both the closer (for providing no closing statement and, when pressed, giving a rather bogus one) and more so to the nom (that wasn't overturned due to a lack of participation, which is what he claimed). Hobit (talk) 17:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it just me, or do we have a small number of admins, Fastily included, who have decided that their restrictive interpretations of NFCC trump consensus? We're seeing this again and again at DRV, and it's beginning to look like a systemic problem: admins who don't believe an NFCC criterion (usually 8) is met, and so unilaterally decide to delete the image under discussion. That's not how consensus is supposed to work, and it's erroneous to presume that NFCC are as black and white as some seem to make them. Jclemens (talk) 21:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong endorse. First of all, the burden of proof in this discussion, reflecting Foundation policy (which can't be weakened or evaded by en-wiki consensus), rests with those who wish to retain the image. If there is no consensus that the rationale is adequate, the image must be removed. There is no other reasonable way to interpret the "balance of proof" standard in our EDP. Second, the keep !votes were clearly weaker than the delete !votes, some bordering on the completely invalid. Slowking4's argument that "the image certainly adds to my understanding of what the coup plotters looked like in that historical moment" certainly deserves minimal or no weight, since "what the coup plotters looked like" is quite plainly not a significant aspect of the article subject, or even discussed in the article. Tryptofish argued that "the event is a significant focus of the text on the page, so that the image illustrates something that most of the text is about," so that while "someone can 'understand' that these two men met without seeing a photo of them meeting, but I think that readers can understand it better by seeing the image." This is a substantially weaker standard than NFCC#8, and in effect concedes that omission of the image would not "be detrimental" to a reader's understanding of the article, because the essential point the nonfree image illustrates can be adequately understood without it. jbmurray's argument comes much closer to meeting NFCC requirements, but ultimately fails because rather than being important in understanding the article text, he argues that it is important to understanding the historical analysis he presents, which is not part of the article. A more detailed rationale, of course, should have been provided. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The actual Foundation policy, as linked from WP:NFCC, is at wmf:Resolution:Licensing policy. I can only assume you're looking at a different page than I am, since this one doesn't say any of what you explicitly say that it does. Point me in the right direction, please? 74.74.150.139 (talk) 00:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn an improperly closed discussion. Shii (tock) 06:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn The actual interpretation of the WMF NFCC policy is the responsibility of enWP, and administrators have the responsibility of administering the interpretation of the community, not their own more permissive or restrictive interpretations. I, for example, prefer a somewhat less restrictive policy interpretation, but I would be absolutely wrong to close FFD debates in accordance with my view of what the consensus interpretation ought to be. What people look like is a substantial aid to understanding events in which they are involved. It needn't be discussed in the article, because the picture does it better. An event one cannot visualize is not adequately understood. DGG ( talk ) 11:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It strikes me that this analysis is based on a false premise. The WMF page in question, setting forth Foundation licensing policy, states quite clearly that "This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects." Saying that interpretation of the EDP should be judged by "the interpretation of the community" alone, without regarding to the consistency of that interpretation with WMF policy, is simply wrong. Note that enwiki's WP:CONSENSUS policy declares that "An extremely narrow group of actions and polices are beyond consensus and must be respected [including] Declarations from Jimbo Wales, the Wikimedia Foundation Board, or the Developers, particularly for copyright, legal issues, or server load [which] must be respected by editors." The foundation requires, for example, that EDPs be "minimal"; an enwiki consensus like the one expressed here, resting on arguments like "the picture does it better" and "the image illustrates something that most of the text is about," is quite plainly not "minimal" and erodes the effectiveness of Foundation policy. It should therefore be rejected as inconsistent with WMF policy. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:38, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn I was interested by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's contribution but I was also puzzled by it. I think "EDP" refers to Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria and "balance of proof" refers to "Note that it is the duty of users seeking to include or retain content to provide a valid rationale; those seeking to remove or delete it are not required to show that one cannot be created—see burden of proof." So, if there is no rationale at all the file should be deleted – no-one seeking deletion needs to argue a valid FUR cannot be created. If there is a fair use rationale the question arises as to whether it is a valid one. The validity question is to be decided by consensus. The file is in Google's cache where I see a FUR that is arguably valid. The FFD discusion reached no consensus and so the file should not have been deleted. Thincat (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This argument is incompatible with the text of enwiki's NFC policy, which states that "To avoid deletion, the uploading editor or another Wikipedian will need to provide a convincing non-free-use defense that satisfies all 10 criteria." (my emphasis) A rationale which does not receive consensus support can hardly be said to be "convincing". Coupled with the policy language on "burden of proof," the outcome should be clear. To convert "no consensus" results on NFC enforcement into "keep" outcomes would be to place the burden of proof on those seeking to remove images rather than those seeking to retain them, exactly the reverse of what the NFC policy declares. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:45, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your rebuttal and I find myself agreeing with everything you say. The trouble is, when I re-read my own comment, I can find nothing wrong there either. Maybe my personal answer to this paradox is that Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, constrained by the Wikimedia Foundation licensing policy, could reasonably have either interpretation. All the same, I'll stick with my view that deletion requires policy-based consensus. Thincat (talk) 23:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd like to _think_ that because the bar is higher we tend to !vote with higher expectations. Were it not for this high bar, I'd generally argue to keep most non-free images and I don't think I'd be alone. Our default is to keep things and at present there is no variation in that expectation for NFCC things. In this case, I think there is a strong argument that the image is historically important. Hobit (talk) 01:51, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn essentially per DGG. Unlike DGG, my own preference in this area, pictures of historical events, would be for a narrow interpretation of the NFCC criteria similar to that advanced by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. However, that is a personal preference and is not codified in en-WP policy or WMF directives which are sufficiently vague that admins should defer to consensus. Eluchil404 (talk) 18:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse The !vote was 3-3 if you count the nominator. In this statement on his talk page giving his rationale, the closer did not only refer to WP:ILIKEIT but also gave more information about the delete voters having stronger rationales than the keep voters. That, combined with HW's convincing explanation of the burden being on those seeking to retain a non-free image, means that the close was reasonable and fell within the administrator's discretion. Calliopejen1 (talk) 03:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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