Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 29

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March 29[edit]

Category:China and the Russian invasion of Ukraine[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 8#Category:China and the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Category:Democratic Socialists of America politicians by state[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename/Merge all - So there's a consensus to merge these to the first target, but no consensus about the "by state" target. It sounds like most would like a new/separate nom for that. So to not lose the "by state" separation of these in the meantime, I'll kick the can down the road and rename them to Category:Members of the Democratic Socialists of America from X. Feel free to renominate at editorial discretion. - jc37 07:49, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The Democratic Socialists of America are a political non-profit, not a political party in any sense of the term. Categorizing those endorsed or who buy membership in the organization as DSA politicians is a misnomer. They are all elected as Democrats. User:Namiba 21:33, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the value in separating elected members of a non-profit. If it were a political party, then yes. However, DSA is an activist non-profit whose members sometimes run for elected office. It is a non-defining intersection just like any other occupation would be. Would we have category:Musician Democratic Socialists of America members?--User:Namiba 02:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Arguably their elected members are the only defined subcategory in reliable sources, but I understand the concern. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 02:52, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just delete, plain membership of an organization other than the political party they are representing is not a defining characteristic of politicians. The root category may be purged and renamed to an "activists" category. If not deleted, merge most of these categories per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Category:Members of the Democratic Socialists of America, but not to socialists by state. These membership labels are incredibly important during elections, therefore defining. However, I also agree that since this is not a formal political party per se, then it does not warrant a tree of elected officials. But Democratic Socialists are not the same as Socialists, nor are they Social Democrats. Dumping them into socialist categories isn't correct either.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:47, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, they should see politicians by (socialist) political party. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:38, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, not all socialists are in socialist political parties. Since World War II, most well-known socialists in the United States (such as Bernie Sanders and Michael Harrington) are members of a decidedly not-socialist Democratic Party. Socialism is a political philosophy which some people believe can be maintained within non-socialist parties in the United States. Besides, most socialists are not politicians. They're often trade unionists, academics, social activists etc.--User:Namiba 14:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hard to understand this argument without cogent facts.
  1. We have articles describing Democratic socialism and Social democracy. Note that these are different.
  2. Bernie Sanders is not a member of the Democratic Party; he is an independent who caucuses with them. He does not describe himself as a "social democrat", but various ignorant observers incorrectly describe him as such in otherwise Reliable Sources.
  3. Michael Harrington was a founder of Democratic Socialists of America. He also does not describe himself as a "social democrat". As a political science professor, he seems to have a firm grasp on these terms.
  4. Thomas Jefferson was an advocate of child education in public schools and ending child labor, progressive taxation, public parks, rural development and equality of pay for farmers, national roads and a national post office. So he was mostly a Marxist Communist (other than slaveholding and opposition to a national bank). But we don't categorize him as a Marxist or a Socialist, because those terms came after his time, and he didn't self-identify as such.
  5. We should never cram people together with others whom they loathed, such as Marxist-Leninists, Trotskyists, etc. Self-identification is incredibly important here.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:24, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of what you just wrote is a non-sequitur and really has nothing to do this discussion. Whether certain people dislike each other or not is not material to categorization on Wikipedia. Until we delete Category:American socialists, it is only logical to group all those who self-identify as such. If you want to nominate Category:American socialists by state for deletion then we can have a discussion on that. The political beliefs of Thomas Jefferson are totally ahistorical and non-material to this.--User:Namiba 17:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's start from scratch. We should categorize people by defining characteristics. Political party is the most defining characteristic of a politician. Leadership of an organization (whether or not political) may be defining. Being an activist for an organization (whether or not political) may also be defining. But mere membership of an organization is hardly ever defining. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:32, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. For DSA, membership in this mass organization is obviously notable for founders and official leadership like Michael Harrington and for those closely linked to it like Bhaskar Sunkara. However, looking at for most members, being part of DSA is a footnote and not core to their defining characteristics. However, in the short term, we have dozens of categories in Category:Members of political organizations and they're not up for discussion today. There seems to be a consensus that the politicians category should not exist and merging it to the members category is the way to go for now. The question is whether these articles should be moved to the subcategories of Category:American socialists by state. A more thorough discussion is needed specifically about these categories and I don't think this is nomination is going to build a broad-based consensus. That is why I proposed to merged them both as is the current practice. I'd be happy to take part in a discussion about the socialists by state category if someone nominates it.--User:Namiba 11:57, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:31, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dukes of Carniola[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 8#Category:Dukes of Carniola

Category:Bear dogs[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Amphicyonidae. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:39, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: "Bear dog" is a colloquial term, it is not often regularly used as a term in paleontological studies compared to simply "amphicyonids," typical of the family name + -ids/-theres/-odonts/etc. Renaming it to "amphicyonids" would be more proper especially since other prehistoric mammal family categories are referred to similarly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PrimalMustelid (talk • contribs) 19:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alt rename to Category:Amphicyonidae per article title Amphicyonidae. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alt rename to Category:Amphicyonidae per article title Amphicyonidae. There are a large number of categories for prehistoric mammals that use -ids (as well as some articles); all of them that don't match an article title ending in -idae should be moved. As far as I can tell using -id for categories/articles stems from the belief that WP:COMMONNAME calls for using any title that is not the scientific name. Amphicyonid is just jargony short hand for Amphicyonidae; it doesn't have any advantage of Wikipedia:RECOGNIZABILITY over Amphicyonidae (which is part of what COMMONNAME is getting at), nor is more commonly used in reliable sources (which is the other part of what COMMONNAME is getting at). Plantdrew (talk) 16:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support rename to Category:Amphicyonidae, in order to match the article title. Dimadick (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Messianic Jews[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:40, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Messianic Judaism is a type of Christianity, not a denomination of Judaism. Messianic Jews are not Jewish simply for believing the Messianic theology. The title should be changed to avoid giving readers the impression that adherents of Messianic Judaism are necessarily Jewish. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:32, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Weak oppose, their own organizations and denominations call themselves Messianic Jews or Jewish, e.g. International Messianic Jewish Alliance. For this rename we would need to have clear evidence that they are not called Messianic Jews or Jewish by neutral sources. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    They are not recognized as Jewish by any Jewish community or by any denomination of Judaism. Black Hebrew Israelites also call themselves Jews, despite the fact that Black Hebrew Israelism is not recognized as a form of Judaism by any Jewish community or by any denomination of Judaism. Many Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be an antisemitic form of cultural appropriation. As an example, the article mentions that B'nai Brith Canada considers Messianic activities to be antisemitic incidents. There is no reason that Wikipedia should validate the false Messianic claim that they represent a form of Judaism. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 12:01, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Recognition or lack thereof is not relevant, this is about the name that is used in reliable sources. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:07, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose — call them as they self-identify. They follow many Jewish practices, holidays, and keep kosher. They also believe that a Jewish Messiah has already appeared. Early followers of Jesus of Nazareth were all Jews, in essence Messianic Jews. Christianity didn't come along until much later. As did Rabbinic Judaism. Since when do we decide that some kinds of Judaism are more valid than others?
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    What does valid mean in this context? They have a valid right to believe whatever they like, but they are in no way, shape, or form Jewish and they practice no form of Judaism whatsoever. The Messianic claim that their evangelical Protestant Christian denomination is a form of "Judaism" is widely considered antisemitic by actual Jews. Their cultural appropriation of certain Jewish practices and holidays does not make them Jewish; many types of Christians appropriate Judaism, see: "Christian Seder". They do not keep kosher by any Jewish understanding of kashrut. The article says that most refrain from eating pork and shellfish, but so do many Christians from denominations such as Ethiopian Orthodox or Seventh Day Adventist. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:54, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose what seems to be a proposed deviation of WP:COMMONNAME. I don't think what 'denominations of Judaism' think matters one bit if this is how reliable media sources call this group of beliefs. I don't think mentioning 'cultural appropriation' is at all appropriate when talking about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, seen the intimate relationship between the two to begin with. One can talk about religious syncretism when some modern Jewish groups get some elements of Christianity, or some Christian groups from Jewish practice, and that has existed since the Nazarenes. But let's not make it our job to sort the good Jews and the bad Jews. Popular democracies were neither popular nor democratic, but that's the name they kept for history. Place Clichy (talk) 20:09, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Make no mistake that I distinguish not between "good Jews and bad Jews", but between Jews and those who are not. Good evening. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:18, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose These titles are overly long, and these are far from the common name. Dimadick (talk) 17:09, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:LGBT state governors of the United States[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:40, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: per WP:NONDEF. Maedc (talk) 18:46, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:LGBT presidents of regions of Italy[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: upmerge to Category:LGBT governors and heads of sub-national entities. (non-admin closure) Nagsb (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: per WP:NONDEF. Maedc (talk) 18:46, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:LGBT King's and Queen's Commissioners of the Netherlands[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: upmerge to Category:LGBT governors and heads of sub-national entities. (non-admin closure) Nagsb (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: per WP:NONDEF. Maedc (talk) 18:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Time loop[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 8#Category:Time loop

Mongols (continued)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename, purge, and re-parent. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:41, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: rename, purge and re-parent, Mongolia did not exist yet, the categories refer to Mongols as an ethnic group. In addition, the 20th- and 21st-century categories should be purged i.e. moved directly under Mongolian people/women. The top category should be re-parented to Category:Mongols. This is follow-up on this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:57, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Jacksonville Naval Air Station Fliers football[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:44, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per contemporary newspaper sources, while "Flyers" was sometimes used, "Fliers" was the most common name for this team; see sources at 1942 Jacksonville Naval Air Station Fliers football team and 1945 Jacksonville Naval Air Station Fliers football team. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I originally set these up using the "Flyers" spelling as that's the usage I was seeing in contemporary press coverage. (I may also have been influenced the fact that Sports Reference LLC uses the "Flyers" variant. See here.) Do you have any figures/data to suggest that "Fliers" was the WP:COMMONNAME? I favor whichever variation is supported by the COMMONNAME data. Cbl62 (talk) 18:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I did a quick search at Newspapers.com and came up with the following results for the years 1942 through 1945: (a) 922 hits for "Jacksonville Fliers", and (b) 327 hits for "Jacksonville Flyers". Accordingly, "Fliers" does appear to have been more common. Cbl62 (talk) 18:59, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:26, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:History of Imperial China[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: No Consensus - jc37 08:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge, as Imperial China is part of history, the differences between the two categories is unclear. Based on what criterion would you put e.g. Academies of Classical Learning in one category or the other? Marcocapelle (talk) 01:57, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • do not merge The net result is that Category:Imperial China will have to be placed into China and Imperial China, which does not match the rest of the subcats and articles therein. History of foo is always a subcat of country foo in WP and there are no obvious complaints of difficulty in placing subcats and articles between them. Hmains (talk) 02:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, this question is confusing, because the premises are wrong.
    1. Dragon Throne is a throne of Imperial China (either physicial seating or referring to a person), not a throne of the History of Imperial China.
    2. Academies of Classical Learning is not in Category:History of China, why repeat that? The system of academies was dismantled during Imperial China, so History of education, and Category:History of Imperial China is correct.
    3. Imperial China is a parent of History of Imperial China. It does not belong in a "History of" category. Putting both in Category:History of China by period is flagged as Overcategorization by Cat-a-lot.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 05:33, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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