Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 14

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July 14[edit]

Category:Comorian nurses[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 22#Category:Comorian nurses

Category:Thailand national rugby league team coaches[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge, which involves the deletion of two categories User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:29, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: As per WP:SMALLCAT. Rugby league is such a minor sport in Thailand it is very rare to have a notable coach. LibStar (talk) 16:03, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Books about Charles Maurras[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 22#Category:Books about Charles Maurras

Category:Themes in fictional films[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Themes in works of fiction. – Fayenatic London 20:39, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: "Fictional films" makes it seem like the films themselves are fictional. ★Trekker (talk) 00:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to something. Category:Fictional films is indeed about films that were fictional in the sense that they never happened. The proposed name seems a little clunky but I honestly can't think of a better one. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps circumvent the problem by merging the category to its parents. Or rename to just Category:Themes in films (I am assuming that non-fictional films do not have themes). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:00, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Rename as proposed by Marcocapelle. No other category name specifies "fiction films" because most films are works of fiction. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "non-fictional films do not have themes" Really? And how would you describe the narratives and tropes in documentary films? Dimadick (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • I do not think people would refer to that as a "theme", but I am open to examples proving the opposite. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:16, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom The current title is misleading. Dimadick (talk) 21:35, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 12:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • UpMerge to Category:Themes in works of fiction. The parent is not very large and neither is this. I don't see much of a reason that they need to be split. - jc37 13:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That would also work. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:55, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Additionally, things like Interpretations of 2001: A Space Odyssey cover both the book and the film. So splitting by type of work, especially when we're talking about a story's thematic elements, doesn't seem helpful, and would, I think, reduce/hinder navigation. - jc37 01:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 11:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Upmerge per jc37, if kept rename to Category:Themes in films per above. Qwerfjkltalk 20:50, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Crete[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Monarchs of Crete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The main article List of rulers of Crete has always said it was about "rulers and governors". I decided to only split off the Category:Governors of Crete, but keep the list intact (splitting it in two would be impractical in this case) and just rename it List of monarchs and governors of Crete. That way it can remain the main article for both categories, which are each part of very different cat trees. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename, consistent with many similar renamings we recently had. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:23, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for Now/Wrong Venue/OK with Splitting The bold rename of the main article was controversial and reversed by @Srnec:. List of rulers of Crete is longstanding name so the category should follow per WP:C2D. (But the reasoning behind this nomination would make a good WP:RM on the talk page of the main article.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:42, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • We can still split the category even if the article is not split. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:38, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Marcocapelle: That's certainly true and I'm conceptually open to a split. In this case, would High Commissioners, Strategos and the one Proconsul be under governors?- RevelationDirect (talk) 11:24, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, ruler and governor have the same meaning, so it was redundant. Srnec (talk) 02:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If so, why would the creator have mentioned them both, and put them in both the Category:Lists of governors and Category:Lists of rulers? You seem to be denying a distinction that the creator has made. RevelationDirect, Marcocapelle and I also make this distinction, saying that "rulers" usually mean something that "governors" are not (namely, (sovereign) hereditary monarchs, which governors are not; they are appointed or elected without hereditary rights). It is confusing when "rulers" in this case can mean "governors" on Crete, but "kings" in Provence, for example. If anything, it confirms that Category:Rulers is an WP:ARBITRARYCAT because "ruler" can mean whatever you want it to mean, as I already observed on 4 February 2023. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I'm also open to a split of the list, but chronologically that seems impractical in this case (with Provence we've got a clear cut at 1481); series of non-hereditary appointed governors alternate with series of hereditarily succeeding monarchs. That's why I chose to only split the categories in this case for category tree purposes. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:39, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- a governor is inevitably ruling on behalf of some one else, e.g. the sultan (who will be the monarch), but he is ruling, so that the present name is appropriately vague and broad enough to cover both sovereigns and governors. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:04, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: WP:SOVEREIGN "rulers" below the rank of king are still "monarchs": #5 European monarchs whose rank is below that of king (e.g., grand dukes, electors, dukes, princes), should be at the location "{Monarch's first name and ordinal}, {Title} of {Country}". Examples: Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria, Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg. That means that e.g. the "Dukes of Crete, 1212–1669" should be considered "monarchs". Also, Category:Lists of governors is not in the Category:Rulers or Category:Monarchs trees, so it would be inappropriate to categorise governors as "rulers". I'm still okay with having a joint list just because it is difficult to chronologically split them, but that means we need to title it List of monarchs and governors of Crete, because "governors" are neither "rulers" nor "monarchs", while the Dukes of Crete were at least "monarchs". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 11:12, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Provence[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Instead, continue discussion at List of rulers of Provence, where there has been no follow-up discussion since May 14; an RM is recommended as well. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:22, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D List of monarchs of Provence. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have reverted the move of List of rulers of Provence to List of monarchs of Provence, pending discussions about a split of List of governors of Provence. This obviously impacts any decisions about the category. Not sure yet if a formal split or move discussion will follow. Lithopsian (talk) 16:22, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename, we can still split the categories even if the list is not split. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • FYI There is some discussion going on at Talk:List of rulers of Provence#Scope now. We may need to reach consensus there first. Even though Category:Governors of Provence already existed and French Wikipedia and others have separate lists, my WP:BOLD split has been reverted. True, it was undiscussed, but part of a long series of precedents that we have established since February. Anyway, I have presented my rationale at the talk page. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Defer A formal WP:RM would be ideal, but defer to whatever the consensus emerges in the article space. It may make sense to withdraw this nom if that outcome is not imminent. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe. There has been silence for 2 days. I pinged both opponents of the rename to resume the exchange based on my and another proponent's comments. Lithopsian is pragmatically okay with a separate list for governors for now, Srnec has made some points (which I partially agree, partially disagree with) about how it's difficult to make things more precise than "rulers".
    The defining difference between the governors from 1481 onwards and the previous "rulers" seems to be that the latter were all hereditary, but with different (and in sources inconsistent) titles, holding a position somewhere between "sovereign" and "appointed governor". (I think Srnec is right about that). Although as a political system, Provence was a monarchy from the 6th century to 1481, we don't normally associate the term monarch with noble titles below the level of king. This is one of the first cases where I'm not sure whether "rulers" is replacable as a term. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    PS: Category:Rulers of Thuringia and Category:Rulers of Hesse are similar cases. There is a mix of royal titles ("kings", "prince-electors") and below-royal titles ("grand dukes", "dukes", "landgraves") for rulers. Even though all of them are identified as "monarchs" in List of German monarchs in 1918, it seems that reluctance or opposition to renaming to monarchs stems from the fact that some of these noble titles are below the level of king, even though all these states were technically hereditary monarchies. For categories, nobility is a fine alternative, but it doesn't indicate whether a person is in fact reigning/ruling/having supreme (if not sovereign) executive power within their realm (because "Nobility" categories are also for consorts, for example), and so that becomes a problem for lists of "rulers". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:18, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: WP:SOVEREIGN "rulers" below the rank of king are still "monarchs": #5 European monarchs whose rank is below that of king (e.g., grand dukes, electors, dukes, princes), should be at the location "{Monarch's first name and ordinal}, {Title} of {Country}". Examples: Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria, Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg. In several past and ongoing Rulers CfRs (including this one), the argument is made that e.g. "dukes" should not be categorised as "monarchs" because they are not "kings", but this guideline shows that they are "monarchs" nonetheless. I've also frequently invoked the fact that the List of German monarchs in 1918 identifies Emperors, Kings, Grand Dukes and Dukes as "monarchs", even though Grand Dukes and Dukes are below the royal level. This is not a valid argument to keep "rulers" in catnames. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 11:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Keith Miller[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:04, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary category. 15 years ago, someone created tonnes of spinoff articles about Keith Miller that meant this was well-populated, but over the last few months, most of these have been deleted or redirected, so there are only 4 articles left (one of which is at AFD and will almost certainly be deleted or redirected too). As such, this category is not needed Joseph2302 (talk) 10:03, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Relays[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. Uncontested and uncontroversial proposal. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:06, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Relay is the common term, and is used by other subcategories of Category:Track relay races. It's obviously not ambiguous with relay the electrical switch. "Relay foot races" is a made-up term. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Gabrielle Aplin[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Works by Gabrielle Aplin. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON we should be using the "Works by..." category tree --woodensuperman 08:22, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sofia Carson[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 22#Category:Sofia Carson

Category:Katherine Jenkins[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON we should be using the "Works by..." category tree --woodensuperman 08:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fernanda Montenegro[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:OCEPON; WP:SMALLCAT --woodensuperman 08:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, interlinking between the articles can easily be done in the body text. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:59, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Charlie Puth[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON we should be using the "Works by..." category tree --woodensuperman 08:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Latto[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 20:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON we should be using the "Works by..." category tree --woodensuperman 08:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Saweetie[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 22#Category:Saweetie

Category:Phoebe Bridgers[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 22#Category:Phoebe Bridgers

Category:Ingrid Andress[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 22#Category:Ingrid Andress

Category:Finneas O'Connell[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Still mostly a merge, as the album covers subcategory will be relocated. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON we should be using the "Works by..." category tree --woodensuperman 08:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - this one has a Works subcat. Oculi (talk) 10:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. As Oculi points out, there is no reason to rename because Works already exists. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:57, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Counts of Ternois[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 20:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Landgraves of Brabant[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Uncontested and uncontroversial nomination. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: delete as redundant, the only article is already in its eponymous category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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