Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 June 27

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June 27[edit]

Category:Major Indus Valley Civilisation sites[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 20:18, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge, "major" is subjective. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:41, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of 'Major', how about moving it to 'Largest Indus Valley Civilisation sites'? That's not subjective. Y-barton (talk) 22:42, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The cut-off would still be arbitrary. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It doesn't need to be arbitrary. Objectively measure the size of settlements. Y-barton (talk) 11:06, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not about the size of the settlements but about the qualification criterion for this category. What size would be the minimal requirement for this category? Any answer you give to that question is arbitrary. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Elementary school killings in the United States[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 20:20, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:OVERLAPCAT, no need to split hairs. Brandmeistertalk 16:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep This nomination would make sense if all school shootings are fatal and if the only way a person could be killed at an elementary school was by firearm (which we know isn't true, because of events like the Bath School disaster). We also don't merge the Category:School killings into Category:School shootings. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:37, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
From what I see all shootings inside Category:Elementary school shootings in the United States are fatal, with at least one death, and everything inside Category:Elementary school killings in the United States are shootings. As such splitting it into killings and shootings doesn't make much sense. But I haven't checked the parent Category:School shootings. Are there non-fatal ones warranting split there? Brandmeistertalk 17:15, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well there's Poe Elementary School bombing, Costa Mesa school car attack, Cokeville Elementary School hostage crisis, etc. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 20:22, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The best way forward is to nominate both trees entirely. The overlap is huge. Possibly rename them to "school killings and shootings". Marcocapelle (talk) 06:05, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:00, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Environmental musical artists[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 2#Category:Environmental musical artists

Category:North Yarmouth Academy[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 2#Category:North Yarmouth Academy

Category:Digimon Fans[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Speedy deleted as G5 (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 15:03, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/User/Archive/Topical index#Wikipedians who like/dislike and "fans" * Pppery * it has begun... 14:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tuvan aviators[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 August 2#Category:Tuvan aviators

Category:ULEB navigational boxes[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 July 20#Category:ULEB navigational boxes

Category:Massacres[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. Opposition was limited to this specific proposal and participants reserved possible future discussions about the contents of the category, alternatives to deletion, or the subcategories. (non-admin closure) JBchrch talk 13:55, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:CATV; there is no scholarly consensus on what the definition of a massacre is, and so it is impossible to verify whether an event is a massacre. This has resulted in a group of categories containing articles with no clear relation, and with their inclusion often based entirely on WP:OR.
In addition, massacre is often a WP:CONTENTIOUS label, which means that these categories fail WP:CATPOVs requirement that the category be uncontroversial, particularly since there is no consensus on what a massacre is, and thus whether a specific incident meets the definition.
Note that this proposal includes deleting all child categories that attempt to group massacres. BilledMammal (talk) 01:53, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this nomination ends as "no consensus" because of this procedural flaw you are entitled to nominate the whole tree in a follow-up nomination. But be prepared that that effort may be in vain. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:09, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • If renamed (while I am not advocating that) it should be something like "murder of multiple people". If merged (while I am not advocating that) it should be merged to "murders". Marcocapelle (talk) 17:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Marcocapelle: Unfortunately, neither of those descriptions work either. For example, Battle of Devil's Hole was a battle, and while people were killed, they weren't murdered. In addition, the ones that are appropriate for such categories are already in them; for example, Saint Valentine's Day Massacre is in the mass shootings, mass murders, and murders category.
    Could you explain why the content needs to stay together? BilledMammal (talk) 00:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it did not concern murder the article should be purged from the category. Murders should stay together. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that murders should be categorized together, but they already are, at Category:Murders; we don't need this category to continue doing that. BilledMammal (talk) 05:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, articles in this tree are currently not (necessarily) also in an equivalent category in the tree of Category:Murders because they are already here in this Massacres tree. So if not kept, every subcategory of this tree has to be merged to an equivalent subcategory in the Murders tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:17, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking at the articles in these categories, I am not seeing any that could be in Category:Murders but are not currently; are you seeing any? I note that while Category:Mass murder is currently a sub-category of this one, it is not one the categories I am proposed deleting because it does not attempt to group massacres. BilledMammal (talk) 06:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Massacre of the Innocents isn't real but's it in the "Massacres in the Bible" category. Please keep in mind the exact context.
  2. Many terrorist attacks are massacres, they aren't mutually exclusive. See Camp Speicher massacre and Munich massacre as examples.
  3. IDK enough about Ratcliffe to comment, but massacres are almost always mass murders.
  4. The California genocide was a series of massacres so it makes sense to have that cat. Srebrenica massacre was both a genocide and a massacre. See also Genocidal massacre.
  5. 50 men were killed in cold blood as they slept. Usually considered a massacre.
  6. IDK enough about this to comment.
  7. Devil's Hole massacre was an unprovoked ambush and it's a COMMONNAME for this event.
  8. The St. Valentine's Day massacre is definitely a massacre. Massacres are a type of murder (and appropriately should be subcategorized as such.) Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 02:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion isn't an unreasonable one, but the issue is that it is your opinion rather than based on reliable sources. For example, one definition of massacre requires that it is aimed at civilians, not soldiers; that excludes the Affair at Little Egg Harbor and the Battle of Devil's Hole. This also leads to the POV issue that I mentioned; the article on the Battle of Devil's Hole note that the Anglo-Americans called it a massacre, while we can expect the Seneca would disagree. BilledMammal (talk) 11:26, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Massacres can certainly be aimed at soldiers, I don't see why we would call events like the Malmedy massacre and the Massacre of the Acqui Division as anything other than massacres. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Because it is a POV label. We should generally try to be neutral, and calling the Battle of Devil's Hole a massacre without clarify that this is the Anglo-American POV is not neutral. BilledMammal (talk) 06:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose, speedy keep Massacres are real events with real definitions. By this logic we should delete Category:Murders, because this is in itself can be used as a POV term.
See also Wikipedia:Overcategorization. This proposition seems to be an attempt to delete a very useful category with more than half a thousand subcategories, and such a deletion would overload the categories. This should even't have been nominated in the first place. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 02:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the issue is that there are definitions, rather than a single definition - murders, meanwhile, have a single clear definition.
However, looking at the opposition, I might withdraw this, to re-nominate at a latter time with more details on what exact categories would be deleted, and what would be renamed or merged. BilledMammal (talk) 11:26, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as presently construed. I could see a renaming/merging of the entire tree to "multiple killings" or "mass murder", which are defined, but this would need a grounds-up proposal of what is merged where. Murders of multiple people are defining and distinct in relation to murders of individuals.--Mvqr (talk) 16:24, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:BilledMammal has a point, the word "massacre" is more ambiguous than I originally thought, implying that there is an element of WP:SHAREDNAME in this category tree. We can at least distinguish murder of multiple people as a legal category and war massacres as a military category. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural Oppose/Conceptually Open Minded There are some POV and shared name issues in this tree but just deleting the top category doesn't solve that. - RevelationDirect (talk) 16:13, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- Despite the lack of a precise definition, cases of mass killing, whether murder or in the course of a war, are real events and generally really notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:05, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • They are notable, but I don't see the relevance of that to the category? BilledMammal (talk) 06:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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