Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yangsu Tegin

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No consensus to delete. Slow discussions on whether this person is the same as that person are a matter for the talk page. (non-admin closure) wumbolo ^^^ 11:08, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yangsu Tegin[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I am uncertain if this is the same person as Bagha Qaghan. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:38, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:44, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:44, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:46, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge or Redirect rather than delete. This person appears to have ruled the same state at precisely the same time as Bagha Qaghan, according to Göktürk family tree. I wonder if this name is what the Chinese called him, or something like that. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:41, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The name given in Chinese is 鞅素特勤 (Yangsu Tegin), possibly the father of Niri Qaghan according of Chinese Wiki, also supposedly son of Muqan Qaghan (which is not as given in Göktürk family tree). The claim that he founded cities is dubious (villages founded by Shiri-Kishvar according to source, are they the same person?). It is rather messy, and the sources given doesn't help, so it may need the attention of an expert. The creator of the article has been busy changing articles on Turkic history, he might have to explain. Hzh (talk) 08:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just adding that there is a passage in Suishu 大邏便爲處羅侯所執，其國立鞅素特勤之子，是爲泥利可汗 [1], mentioning Apa Qaghan , Chuluohou 處羅侯 (who may have been Bagha Qaghan), Yangsu Tegin, and Niri Qaghan. I'm not sure if I'm parsing it correctly, but it seems to suggest that Chuluohou (Bagha Qaghan) and Yangsu Tegin are different people. Hzh (talk) 11:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment His listed predecessor was ruler of the khaganate at the time of a civil war. There may be issues under him of disputed rule in even specific locations such as Bukara. However, if this is the fact, we need to find sources to clearly indicate this.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:50, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I have removed the content that was not properly sourced. I have also removed details that suggest similarity to Bagha Qaghan, given that the name Yangsu Tegin comes from Chinese history, and Suishu which is an important source of Turkic history of this period does not indicate Yangsu Tegin and Bagha Qaghan to be the same person. The Russian Wiki suggests that Yangsu Tegin may be the same as Sawa of Persian sources, although that is not the traditional identification. Bagha Qaghan is normally identified with Sawa, and Bagha Qaghan's details were added to this article, which may be OR or UNDUE whereby a minor viewpoint is taken to be fact. Other edits by the creator of the article may need to be examined. Hzh (talk) 10:31, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Yangsu Tegin may or may not be the same as Sawa of Persian sources, however I don't see the reason why Bagha should be identified with Sawa? Bagha was a son of Issig, while Yangsu was a grandson of Muqan - a rival line - as we know from Niri Qaghan statue inscriptions. Apa - son of Muqan was a claimant to the throne of Turkic khaganate. So why Bagha (莫何可汗) would be fighting a war in Sassanid front, far away from his base in Mongolia? Apa's line would be much more closer to Sassanid border. Moreover, please see Suishu 51 - Bagha Qaghan captures Apa and Zhangsun Sheng (father of Empress Zhangsun) advises emperor to spare Apa. You may look at Zhangsun Sheng biographies too. Therefore Bagha and Yangsu can't be same person. Just because we have relatively lesser information on Yangsu, does not make him less irrelevant. Cavidaga (talk) 05:44, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (talk) 07:21, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.