Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wilson Severino

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:52, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wilson Severino[edit]

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Article about an amateur footballer who featured on a Fox Sports reality TV show. There is coverage of his stint on the show in the Argentine press (I added a La Nación link to the article), but I don't believe his reality TV appearances are sufficient to make him notable - and his amateur footballing career isn't either. Jogurney (talk) 20:16, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Argentina-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Brazil-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 21:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Enough to pass GNG. As well as that tv appearance, Severino had a notable career with Atlas (258 apps 109 goals BDFA) which brings notability: Mundo D - La Voz, Infobae, Clarín, Fox Deportes R96Skinner (talk) 22:18, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - good research by R96Skinner, meets GNG. Article needs improving, not deleting. Giant Snowman 07:38, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, I think. Per nom. His Atlas career was in the fifth tier of Argentine football, three levels below fully professional, and not many people would consider a long career with a Northern Premier League club to be notable, even if the club did feature in a reality TV show. The articles listed by R96Skinner are different media outlets' version of the same piece, about his emotional five minutes against River in the Copa Argentina a year after he retired from playing, which seems to be as part of the reality show. I don't think that's enough for a GNG pass. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:16, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is correct - all of the non-routine coverage in the Argentine press relates to his stint on the reality TV show in some fashion (including the unsuccessful trial it generated at DIM). He certainly was a star amateur footballer, but that's well below our footballer notability guideline. Jogurney (talk) 14:24, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – mostly per R96Skinner's research. Rare, but I believe this is a notable amateur football player. The top WP:THREE examples of WP:SIGCOV I see are Mundo, and infobae, and the combination of these two Clarin articles [1] [2]. (Fox Deportes is in-depth but they produced the reality TV show (per our article) so not independent.) Per WP:42, there is plenty of material here to write a decent biography. My Spanish is not good but I think he held the scoring record for Atlas. Leviv ich 06:18, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I've noted below, three of those four articles are all from the same PR stunt. SportingFlyer T·C 01:47, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've tried, but I don't get it. For years, Mr Severino did a shitty job in order to feed his family and played amateur football but was never able to progress higher up the leagues like he wanted to. A TV station made a reality show about Atlas, the amateur club he used to play for, and as happens with reality TV participants, he had a few weeks of "fame". Some years later, after he'd given up football, Atlas were drawn in the cup against the big club that Mr Severino supported. He went back to the club and begged to be in the team, the management thought it might get them some welcome publicity, and once the team was comfortably losing the game, he got five minutes on the field. It's a lovely feelgood story, the sort of thing that the popular press were bound to cover, and I hope it works out for him. But that's it. How is that not WP:BLP1E? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"A few weeks of fame" is not accurate. The reality TV show was on the air for 10 years on Fox Sports as of 2015. Severino was the captain, and I think later the manager, of the team, as well as (I think) holding the team record for most goals. He was the "face" of the team. It looks like he was a football celebrity in Argentina for maybe two decades. The five-minute televised encore in 2017 was a "comeback"–he was already famous (and notable) by then. For me, it doesn't matter if he was professional or amateur–notability is not a judgment about career success–it matters whether he was "noted" or "worthy of note", and the RSes seem to agree that he is, and for many years. Check out the pre-2017 coverage of him:
2010 article about Severino becoming captain of the team

2010 interview with Severino

2014 profile with a video interview of him. The lead sentence translates to: Wilson Severino is the emblematic player of Club Atlético Atlas ...

2014 story on the club (not really SIGCOV of Severino himself) has Severino as the lead picture. The caption translates to: Wilson Severino, scorer and symbol of Atlas, is preparing to be manager in the future ...

2015 passing mention in a blurb about the club Atlas refers to Severino as ... the incombustible Brazilian striker Wilson Severino.

Not all of those links above are SIGCOV (but some are). In 2017, the coverage really blossomed because of the renewed media attention due to his "comeback" appearance. Yes, that was a publicity stunt, but he was already notable, and the resulting coverage means there is plenty from which to write an article about him. Look at all the references on his Spanish Wikipedia article. The article was CSD'd there in 2014 due to lack of sources from which to write an article. Later it was recreated. They had an AfD discussion about him in 2017 which reads just like this discussion, with editors pointing out that there was now much more SIGCOV of him since 2014, and other editors making the BLP1E argument ("WP:UNEVENTO"). The result of the AfD was mantener (keep). Leviv ich 15:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:54, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete this is effectively a WP:BLP1E. He clearly fails WP:NFOOTY and only has an article as a result of a publicity stunt after appearing on an Argentine reality show. All of the references I've seen only mention him in the context of the reality show. Not a notable footballer. SportingFlyer T·C 19:24, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Even if he's not notable as a footballer, he's notable as a TV personality (WP:NACTOR). The Argentine reality show ("documentary"), Atlas, la otra pasión, about Club Atlético Atlas won a Martín Fierro Award in 2006 (the top in Argentina, like an Emmy I guess). It was on Fox Sports (Latin America). There's coverage of Severino from 2010–2017. This doesn't seem like a one-time publicity stunt. Leviv ich 20:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Under which part of WP:NACTOR exactly? He was featured in a docu-reality show, that doesn't get you there. SportingFlyer T·C 20:08, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Featured" implies some passing thing like a guest-star role. He was the star for years. Snooki gets an article, know what I mean? NACTOR 2, I'd say, "cult following", as evidenced by the multiple years of media coverage and all the attention that came with the 2017 comeback appearance. Also, he's on Fox Sports, it's a major network on which to star in a weekly, award-winning docu-series. Clearly, he had a significant number of fans for many years. Hence why the team, and the show, are notable (and why this article survived an AfD on Spanish wiki). Realty TV stars of popular long-running reality TV shows get stand-alone articles as a general rule, wouldn't you agree? Leviv ich 20:16, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I got that, by the way, from comments at the Spanish-language AfD discussion from two keep votes: This footballer, in addition to showing a couple of important records for a historical club of Argentine soccer, also stood out for his participation in a television program related to the club. So it is no coincidence that his sporting career is considered by the main Argentine media (Clarín, La Nación, Infobae) and also by its main sports media (Olé, El Gráfico magazine, etc) and that the River Plate club have honored him as reflected in the text. and The relevance goes beyond his condition of "fifth division player", and this is credited by the sources present in the article. It is a very particular case, which has become relevant as an example of personal improvement. It is not about a character who has been on the news once, but who has had a quasi-leading role in a TV show that has been known for many years. Therefore, it is not any fifth division player, not even limited to being a prominent or historical figure of your club. On the contrary, this condition of marginal, of unknown, actually reinforces the relevance. Not that we're bound by their "keep" result, but I value the opinions of Wikipedians who (unlike me) are native speakers of the language and live in that part of the world. Deletion discussions are more or less the same in any language I guess: ... no se puede tener ese nivel de agresividad, falta de respeto y prepotencia gratuita hacia otros usuarios por el solo hecho de tener opiniones diferentes. Llevamos añares así con tus intervenciones desmesuradas ... Edita tu comentario y opina en forma respetuosa y mesurada, antes de que me dirija al tablón. which translates to ... you can not have that level of aggressiveness, lack of respect and gratuitous arrogance towards other users for the mere fact of having different opinions. We've endured for years like this with your excessive interventions ... Edit your comment and opine in a respectful and measured way, before I go to the board. Leviv ich 20:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't agree. Reading through the Spanish AfD, I am far more taken with the delete arguments, especially considering his article was already once deleted on the Spanish website back in 2014, notability is not inherited (do all players for Atlas get to have articles since they were on the show?), and the Keep arguments in Spanish mostly related to his "one shining moment:" getting to end his career with five minutes on the pitch against River Plate, which swamp his Spanish language page. SportingFlyer T·C 01:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - as I understand it, the reality TV show did win an Argentine television show award in 2006, and has aired for over a decade. It probably deserves it's own article. Mr. Severino certainly appeared on the show, and all of the articles covering his football career derive from those appearances on the show. I think this is a BLP1E issue, as his amateur career isn't particularly notable (there are literally thousands of amateur players around the world who hold some record for a club, just as we could find thousands of high school football or baseball players who hold records for their school's teams). I don't see him acquiring notability as an actor, but that's the only way I could see us concluding the article should be kept. Jogurney (talk) 16:49, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:03, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 17:04, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.