Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McKinley, Sr.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No Consensus to delete. There is no consensus below as to whether this person has notability independent of his clearly notable son or not. Eluchil404 (talk) 05:03, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

William McKinley, Sr.[edit]

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Noted only because of his relationship to a bona fide famous person, a la Britney Spears's mother. Melanesian obsession (talk) 02:50, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: Nominator has been banned - this AfD was the start of a plan to attack the contributions of another editor.--Milowent (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Though much coverage covers him in the context of his son, he is notable on his own for being a leading iron producer in Ohio in the 19th century. Many sources provide more detail, so the article could be expanded; does not need to be deleted.--Milowent (talk) 04:54, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I don't see the point of keeping this as his notability, independent of his son, is not show. If he's notable enough as an industrialist, we need some light shed on that. Delete, not opposed to re-creation or promt improvement. --Griseum (talk) 05:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Progenator of a World Leader, notable enough for me...but flag it as Stub-Needs improvement/expanding/additional sources. As far as the comparison to Spears' Mother: Actor vs World Leader: nb VulpineLady (talk) 06:59, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- VulpineLady, Wikipedia has specific guidelines stating that notability is NOT inherited (nor passed from children to parents, etc.) --Griseum (talk) 17:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral - This is a very interesting one. I don't think the Britney Spears comparison is correct. I'm on the fence because it's quite likely there's a lot discussed about him and he was notable in his own right, but I also think we have a past-awareness bias, where if someone's old we give them a pass. If this was a current industrialist of a mid-sized company would they warrant an article? On the other hand, articles this old don't have many of the same problems that contemporary articles on people of similar stature have. I'd be persuaded by additional discussion of the individual in sources. Shadowjams (talk) 08:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Speedy delete per A7. Article doesn't indicate notability. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 10:07, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Its not a speedy delete.--Milowent (talk) 11:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:25, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to William McKinley. Not inherently notable per WP:NOTINHERITED, and the article's brief enough that it can be incorporated into the one on his more famous son. It can always be recreated if stronger evidence of notability is found, but I'm not seeing it at the moment. Robofish (talk) 11:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Milowent Connormah^talk 22:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- some knucklehead IP switched the above vote to delete without explanation. Let's not get silly here.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 00:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Not all parents of U. S. Presidents have their own articles, but if Millard Fillmore's father has one, surely McKinley is notable enough. I'm surprised that Woodrow Wilson's father doesn't have one. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The fathers of 3 Presidents: Calvin Coolidge, Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter served in their state legislatures-I started the article about Calvin Coolidge's father and worked on the article about Jimmy Carter's father. So notability is established with these men. On this article I agree with Milowent keep the article but add more sources. Thank you-RFD (talk) 16:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Fillmore's father - Thank you for pointing out that that is an article devoted to Nathaniel Fillmore. The Nathaniel Fillmore article should ALSO be deleted per WP:NOTINHERITED. Several days have passed, and it still hasn't been demonstrated that William McKinley, Sr. is independently notable. I wish people would stop making arguments like "He raised a world leader" which is not a relevant criterion as explained in WP:NOTINHERITED. --Griseum (talk) 01:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep - He raised a world leader. Even if, arguendo, the parents of a dead president on the $500 Bill is not per se notable, this guy certainly is so. First off, he was a wealthy enough businessman to pay for his son to go to Albany Law School, a major proposition in the 19th century, rather than merely "read" for the law. Thus, he had to have been a big businessman in his day. Secondly, he had a New York Times obituary, which is one of the best ways to prove notability of a deceased American. Thirdly, there are already plenty of other sources in the article to prove notability. Finally, Melanesian obsession has been making several pointy nominations for some reason, so this nom should also be discounted. Bearian (talk) 17:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Respectful request for a speedy close per clear and convincing proof of sockpuppetry and trolling by the nominator. Bearian (talk) 17:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, those aren't the criteria for a speedy close and there is a delete !vote above. Shadowjams (talk) 19:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment-there is an article about Joseph R. Wilson, President Wilson's father-Thank you-RFD (talk) 23:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Article may need improving perhaps, but clearly he was notable enough in his time to have his own page now! TwoRiversWC (talk) 12:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC) (Note: User:TwoRiversWC has been banned as a sockpuppet.)[reply]
Delete His only significant accomplishment of his own was that he "operated a small pig-iron furnace in Niles, Ohio" [1]. Every reference cited is about his son the president, and only peripherally about him. In other words he is not the SUBJECT of significant coverage in reliable sources; he is a passing mention. Being the parent of a president does not automatically confer notability. --MelanieN (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You will note that one quoted source in the article says he "was one of the pioneer ironmasters of eastern Ohio". Getting mid-19th century newspaper references to Sr. that predate Jr's fame would require going to microfiche.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 23:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.